DWM Commercial Survey--call for data
 

Revised: added Finnish info request 06/29/07--DG

Since there has been some activity on this topic recently from new members, I thought I'd reinstate this headline post in order to make things a little easier to comprehend.

I am engaged in a long-term project to produce a database of known DWM Commercial Lugers and some of their important characteristics, from the 1900 Old Model guns all the way through the end of DWM production in 1929.

The database is available for download by going here: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=14292

The data I seek is comprehensive. Here is what I am looking for:

1900 (Old Model):
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Swiss Commercial (Swiss cross-in-starburst on chamber, c/BUG proofs)
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...crown over B,U,G
...no proof marks
*Swiss cross + on barrel?
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
...wide W (extends full width of grip strap)
*Thumb safety type
...type 1, flat-checkered
...type 2, raised-checkered
...type 3, raised-ridged (fluted)
*Where is the takedown lever numbered?
...right, round end R
...left face F
...bottom edge B
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1902:
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Carbine
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...crown over B,U,G
...no proof marks
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
...wide W (extends full width of grip strap)
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Carbine stock (if present)
...one-screw or two-screw?
...matching?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1906 (New Model):
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Swiss Commercial (Swiss cross-in-starburst on chamber, c/BUG or c/N proofs)
...Navy Commercial
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over B,U,G
...crown over N, lazy (on its side) or upright
...no proof marks
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Thumb safety stamped GESICHERT or polished?
*Extractor stamped GELADEN or LOADED?
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*long frame or short?
*thumb safety area stamped GESICHERT or SAFE?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics or unusual variation (French, etc.)?

1908 (no stock lug):
*serial number
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over B,U,G
...crown over N, lazy (on its side) or upright
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Recoil spring well spur or straight? (see http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...archTerms=spur )
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

20DWM (with stock lug) (previously known as 1923 Commercial) (includes 1914 Commercial variation)
*serial number
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over N, lazy (on its side)
...crown over N, upright
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs?
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Sear bar
...full-length
...relieved
*Export marked?
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded?
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

*All 5-digit marked magazines, whether they are with a gun or not.

Alphabet Commercial (previously known as 1920 Commercial) and
29 DWM (previously known as DWM/Mauser Sneak)
*serial number, with letter suffix
*proof marks, left receiver--crown over N, upright? Cc/U?
*right receiver proofs?
*blank toggle?
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Export marked?
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Krieghoff Suhl back-frame marked?
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*Finnish Suome Armijnen M-23
...S.A marked left receiver
...Tikka barrel 4-inch? 5-inch?
...9mm or .30?
...unit mark grip medallion?
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded?
*Blank toggle? DWM toggle?
*Eagle/WaA right receiver proof?
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1920 Carbine
*Serial number (with suffix, if present)
...matching or not?
*Caliber
*Proof marks
*Barrel
...Carbine barrel
...Long barre and length
*Sight
...Carbine sight
...Artillery sight
*Grip safety?
*Forend accellerator spring?
*Frame
...long
...short
*GERMANY export mark?
*Stock matching?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

If anyone has a Commercial DWM Luger they have not yet reported, I'd appreciate knowing the details. Post your info here, or email me dwightg@clear.net. As usual, I will keep sources confidential if requested.

Thanks again to everybody who has sent me info so far, and thanks in advance for the new info.

--Dwight

Luger 1910
 

I have what I believe is a DWM 1910 Commerical Luger. The chamber is date stamped as such. The condition is very good, all matching except the mag.
which is from the same period, wooden base.

I tried to post a photo in the past but didn't get it to go.

I can give you more infromation on it if you are interested.


Regards.




Lock and Load! :D :D

Michael,

Thanks for the post. A 1910 chamber date indicates that yours is a German Army Luger, not a Commercial. This can be verified by the presence of three inspection/proof stamps on the right receiver.

I'm sure that everyone will be interested in seeing your pictures, if you can't manage to post them email them to me dwightg@pacifier.com and I will post them for you.

--Dwight

Dwight;

Thanks for your correct ID of my Luger. It does have the three "proofs" on the receiver.

I'll email you some photos. Even my slow modem should manage that.



Lock and Load! :D :D

Hi Dwight,
I sent this one to you a few months ago but still don't see it in your database.
I don't know how often you update it, but I'll send it again anyway; plus my new pride and joy.

Alphabet Comm. S# 3686 P, 30 cal., C/N upright on left of receiver and on barrel, lazy C/N on left of breechblock, GERMANY on left frame rail above takedown, GESICHERT under thumb safety, GELADEN on extractor.

Question: Do you find it odd that you only have three in your database with
the P suffix, all 36XX? I assume they made 9999 with that suffix: 1 P through 9999 P. Please set me straight if I'm wrong.

My new 100 year old:
1906 AE, S# 45165, 9mm, no proofs, GERMANY under S# on front of frame,
LOADED on extractor, polished safety area, B inside circle on barrel under S#. Barrel is matching and has halo around the S#'s.

There is a thread disscussing another 1906 9mm with a Brazilian contract barrel.

Thanks,
Mike C.

Michael,

I got your pictures and will post them presently in the Military Luger section.

Mike,

Thanks for the other info. The reason for only three p suffix Alphabet Commercials is that I started keeping those numbers realatively recently, and haven't released a new version of the database in over a year.

I expect to have a new one available to download within a couple of weeks.

--Dwight

Dwight ,
I edited my post with more info on the 1906 AE. Didn't know if you saw it are not.
Thanks,
Mike C.

Information search list revised 6/27/07

--Dwight

Revised: added Finnish info request 06/29/07

--Dwight

El Paso is pretty much the armpit of the universe for collecting Lugers?¦ if it isn't a Colt or Winchester it stirs little interest. But every now and then a miracle happens. I picked up a pretty nice very early 1900 Commercial today, #3453, C/BUG proofs, Type II thumb safety, takedown numbered on the bottom, no GERMANY stamp. Came with a decent commercial holster, sound but looks an authentic 100 years old. It is a full flap style, fully calf skin lined with a repeated/chained small leaf pattern border stamping and a brass stud closure. Looks like it might be an old Sam Meyers holster, but it has no makers mark, only 174 stamped on the belt loop. Kind of made my day!:cheers:

Ron,

Congratulations on a very cool find, very glad for you. Also thanks very much for the report, this thumb safety type is very informative.

--Dwight

Orv Reichert is my hero! I opened up my email this afternoon and what should I find but a message from him with the key to the Dave Rivera/Dave Soracco database information! Anyone who has been following this saga knows that I have been looking for this informaton for several years.

If you are looking at a current copy of the database, know that the greyed-text conditional detail information is now confirmed as listed. The next database release will have this info as regular text, with no question.

Thanks again, Orv!

--Dwight

Alphabet Commercial data
 

Alphabet Commercial # 2034n
proof marks, left receiver & barrel--crown over N, upright
blank toggle
Caliber .30
Export marked: GERMANY
location of stamp: Right receiver
Chamber marked: none
Extractor marked: Loaded
DWM toggle
All matching #s
Rework to like new condition.

Alphabet Commercial
*serial number: 2183K - marked on underside of barrel and front of frame. Last 2 digits on underside of locking plate, takedown lever, and the lug underneath the rear sight. (all match)
*proof marks, left receiver, left side toggle, bottom of barrel --crown over N,
*Toggle Marked DWM
*Caliber .30
*Export marked: NO
*Chamber marked: NO
*Extractor marked GELADEN
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

Since I don't know what's normal I will just write down everything I see:
Marked P -Underside of barrel on what appears to be a lug and a stamp just to the left of it the looks a bit like an I

On the left side grip frame there is a P half way down and a sideways H at the bottom near the bottom end of the mainspring, There is also an A on the left side of the frame between the trigger and the magazine release button. Inside the frame there is a J and what looks like a cursive n right behind the locking lug for the barrel/slide group.

The underside of the the rear part of the toggle is marked with a 3.

Silly question: What makes it an " Alphabet" model?

This was the phrase that Jan Still made up, as it made more sense than the old 1920 commericial...

An alphabet luger is one with serial number and suffix like a military model from WW1, i.e. there is serials from (for example) 1966l (small L) to 1966u ; then production started with Mauser and they started the G & and then the K dates, then the 1936 dates, etc.

There were also 5 digit lugers made for the commercial market made at the same time.

Alphabet lugers are generally considered to be military and police; you have to be aware that WW1 had suffixes too and you must look close at them for proofs etc to determine which is which....

I should add this explanation to the FAQ, this is what is there now (a quick look by me)
Ed

Great explanation.
Thanks.

20 DWM (with stock lug)
3-7/8" barrel
serial number 8289 l (that's a lower case L), located on front of frame and barrel, two digits 89 on rear of toggle, takedown pin and side plate.
proof marks = crown over N, upright on barrel, breech block and left side of frame
Toggle marked DWM
Caliber .30
Export marked MADE IN GERMANY, right side of frame
Chamber marking none
Safe/Loaded GESICHERT/GELADEN
Wood butt on magazine, no markings
Note: MADE IN GERMANY is poorly stamped and is upside down in relation to frame (ie M of MADE is at barrel end of frame)

I did send my data...
 

...on my 1900 American Eagle (#2029), I think last November. I've never seen it in the database.

Would you like me to resend? Please advise. Thanks.

Weasel

1920, DWM, 7.65
9639m
Upright c/n L. receiver, and underside of barrel
Sear relived
'Germany' on front frame, under the serial #, just above the trigger guard
No chamber mark
Safe loaded in german

Lazy c/N on left breech block over a c/E. May be an Erfurt eagle
another lazy c/N on mid toggle left side

My Commercial Info
 

I hope this goes thru:

1900 (Old Model):
*serial number #2029
*variation
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...no proof marks
*Swiss cross + on barrel? YES
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
*Thumb safety type
...type 2, raised-checkered
*Where is the takedown lever numbered?
...right, round end R
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

HTH.

Weasel

Dwm 1921
 

Not quite sure how to add to the database? But, here's one more that is not included:
DWM 1921 SN: 87191

Commercial DWM 1911(?)
 

DWM Commercial - 1911 (?)

*serial number: 58851
*proof marks on left receiver: crown over Lazy N
*Stamped GERMANY: No
*Recoil spring well spur or straight: Spur
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs: No Military Proofs
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics:
(1) All matching serial numbers (including grips); Mag #1 no serial # on wood base; Mag #2 serial number indicates police mag
(2) Unrelieved sear and no hold-open
(3) Non-reinforced frame.
(4) Gun captured by a Third Infantry Division GI during the liberation of Munich late April or early May 1945; Came with 1911 AWM holster marked 16.J.R.1.B and 2.B.J.R. IIB. The owner claimed to be the mayor or vice mayor of Munich.
(5) Blue fire color visible on one grip screw; rear toggle pin, mag & sear springs

Dwight
Local gunshow today. 1906 AE serial # 35060. Germany on front of frame. Overall 80% or so. All visable numbers match. Bill

Dwight, see http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23910

Hi Gents,

I have a Model 1900................
Serial # 4129
8th Variation
Commercial
BUG proofed
GERMANY marked too!
Narrow grip safety
Type 1 thumb safety
Relieved frame
Take-down lever numbered on bottom
IDEAL grips!

Possibly assembled in 1905, but sent to North America, where it picked up the IDEAL grips. Too bad the stock isn't with it.

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Bill,
M1900 S#4129 with early features predates the US Test Eagles.
What makes you say "Possibly assembled in 1905"?

Hi Mike,

As a guideline used by Bobba in his book, that serial number range if applied by DWM outside the Swiss pistols, would place it at being assembled in 1905. As the various parts are first series, first variation (save for the relieved frame), I take it to mean that the parts are from 1900-1901, hence Bobba's definition of "Eighth Variation".

The BUG proofs were only required for the European market, and were no doubt applied at the time of manufacture. When the pistol was sold to a North American customer, the Americans placed the "GERMANY" marking on it, as per their regulations governing imported firearms. As I said, the IDEAL grips are a logical addition by the owner on this side of the Atlantic, though sadly the actual holster section is no longer with the pistol.

I have it presently for sale here in Canada, and while the interest would be much greater in the U.S., the paper trail to send it to the States would be "less smooth" than here.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill,

Good luck on the sale of your 1900 Commercial. That is a nice early serial number and great early features...a Type I safety is really neat. Commercial pieces are not common on this side of the puddle, the majority are American Eagle. The Ideal grips are a nice bonus, but unfortunately the stock is the hard part to find.

One slight comment, the GERMANY marking was an export stamp and was applied in Germany, not the US.

Thanks for the info on the GERMANY marking, Ron....I didn't know that!

An IDEAL stock was seen fairly recently at a local Show. Perhaps it will reappear at our next Show this coming Sunday. It would be nice to "marry up" the IDEAL bits before she sells.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill,
Thanks for the response, but I'm even more confused now. I'm sure it would help me understand if I had Bobba's book, which I don't.
Were the S#'s applied to the parts in 1900/1901, and the gun assembled and finished in 1905, out of sequence? What am I missing?

Hi Mike,

Bobba's book is superb. While it deals primarily with the Swiss variation of the Luger, it does delve into the DWM side of things as well.

My gun would fall into what he describes as the "eighth variation". He describes it as thus:

".....a final variation of this model, the 8th, which is composed of commercial pistols which were produced in those years by DWM for the civil market (not only Swiss). All these pistols have the tight trigger of the first variation, while the safety grip and the manual safety lever vary from weapon to weapon, according to the period in which production is placed....The serial number could have been composed of 3, 4 or even 5 numbers, and the highest known numbers are round about no '22000'.......These commercial Model 1900 pistols, excluding those that were destined to go overseas, bear the German proofmarks (the so-called 'BUG').......The long interval in which this numeration falls highlights the fact that they were produced together with other models (commercial or not) during a period of several years."

So....at the top end of serial number 22000, that would be in the region of the Model 1900/06 commercial pistol. Bobba shows my serial number 4129 , "SUPPLIED (my capitals) between 1905 and 1906". That's quite a spurt of manufacturing in such a short period. While I couldn't immediately find his remarks on production, I take that to mean that guns were assembled /supplied much more readily if parts were already on hand - thus the variation of first series, first variation parts. As an 8th variation, it appears that DWM were literally "sweeping up" old stock parts and assembling pistols from them, finally applying the serial number at the time of assembly.

I hope that this helps.


Cheers,

Bill

Bill,
The conclusions you have drawn from Bobba's descriptions are understandable. However, I do not believe that your low serial number gun could have been assembled as late as 1905. Consider that your gun is lower than the serial numbers of the U.S. Test Trial Lugers (also drawn from commercial production) which were delivered in October 1901. I am relatively certain that your early commercial was produced not later than 1901.

Hi Ron,

I've been going through Reese's book on the U.S. Test Trials, and wondered if they had a seperate serial number range. I have to admit that if Bobba said "up to 22000" serial number range for the 8th variation, then that would have been a lot of pistols made in 1905-06.

But, I see that the commercial range wasn't interrupted by DWM, and yes, it's more logical to imagine a pistol with 1900-01parts to be built at that time, and not 4 or so years later.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions. That's why it's important to meet knowledgeable Gents such as yourself, in order for me to learn more.

Even better to know that my 1900 pre-dates the Test Trial Lugers. I'd be smarter to hold on to it, and look for that errant IDEAL stock.......................

Cheers,

Bill

Bill,

Take a look at this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...rcial+database

--Dwight

Hi Dwight,

Thanks for the guide. I notice that under the "Thumb safety Variations" that you wrote,

"There is also a range from sn 3206 to sn 4680 (at most) in which Type-1 and Type-2 safeties are intermixed."

As my sn 4129 is a Type-1 lever with narrow grip safety and trigger, this would make sense. I'm also tempted to try to estimate when the production date of my Model 1900 took place - perhaps in late 1900.

This Sunday is our local gun show. An IDEAL holster section was seen in the past for $625, so perhaps it may yet reappear. I'll have to ask around.

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Gents,

Just two pics. I have a number of others, but they were taken of the individual parts when I had filed-stripped it. None of her in one piece;).


Cheers,

Bill

Bill,
Very nice original early 1900. I saw an Ideal holster and grip set at the Louisville SOS show, for $5000! If you find that holster, JUMP on it.
Good luck and thanks for the pics.

Good God !

Thanks Mike......Needless to say, firearm prices aren't as "hot" up here as they are in your neck of the woods. Geez....If I can grab that holster part, maybe I should flog the set south of (our)the border. The paperwork isn't as much of a pain at my end, now that I know the ropes;).

I'll have to take more detailed pics of the entire pistol, anyhoo.

Bye the bye....A Swiss 1900 Luger is probably about 4-5 grand up here. I believe that someone suggested 10 grand in the States.


Cheers,

Bill

That $5000 holster and grip set was in mint condition in the original box, not your run of the mill example. The only 1900 Swiss that I am aware of that approaches the 10 grand mark is a very early example in near mint condition and with an unrelieved frame. Four or five grand is about the going rate for a nice one in the States also.