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sschultz 07-09-2002 05:51 PM

Datig and Krieghoffs
Just wondering if Datig's beliefs about which Krieghoff lugers were actually "manufactured" by them, are accepted as wrong. If I remember correctly, he stated that manufacturing did not begin until 1939. Therefore, anything dated prior, was not manufactured, but was assembled from parts. And could I please get a confirmation on the date of the Luftwaffe contract? If there is an awesome reference on Krieghoffs, please let me know. Thanks for the time. -stuart

Brandon 07-09-2002 06:42 PM

Hi sschultz!

Ralph Shattuck told me about a book called The Kreighoff Parabellum by: Randall Gibson!
Ralph said it was a must! I don't have it yet but plan on buying it in the future!

Hope this has helped!

John D. 07-09-2002 10:15 PM

In 1934 - the Luftwaffe went out to bid for Lugers - and Krieghoff was the favored manufacturer given the arms they supplied to the existing contracts. Given the transition of the machinery/tooling (Erfurt - Simson - Krieghoff) it is reasonable to believe that he new tooling was in place in late 1934 at HK. The first production run was in late 1934 on the HK new machines/tooling. In order of delivery - they were "G" dated (late 1934 or early 1935), Early "S" and early "S" (Turkish - 1935), Mid "S" (1935), etc.

Other HK efforts included, that reworks were DWM 1920/1921 Commercial re-works - stamped on the backframe. These, along with side-frame inscribed Kriegs, are the two HK's that are most encountered fakes (IMNSHO).

Hope this helps!!!

John D. 07-09-2002 10:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brandon:
<strong>.....a book called The Kreighoff Parabellum by: Randall Gibson!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey Brandon..!!

EXCELLENT book!!!! Excellent suggestion!!! Buy the book - it's wonderful!!! (I'm biased, however [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Edward Tinker 07-09-2002 10:59 PM

If you think the book is good, it must be worth it John! [img]smile.gif[/img]

John D. 07-09-2002 11:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>If you think the book is good, it must be worth it John! [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you suggesting I am cheap??!!! LOL!!!

[img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> [img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

(you "could" be right - BTW) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edward Tinker 07-09-2002 11:17 PM

Not if you collect Kreigs


John D. 07-09-2002 11:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Not if you collect Kreigs</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea - BUT... (you knew there was a "BUT" [img]smile.gif[/img] )

While you folks talk about collections having dozens of examples - we Krieg collectors have to get by with a collection comprised of somewhat "fewer" numbers in our collections... 'Course - it does save time when "cleaning" our collection [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

sschultz 07-09-2002 11:48 PM

Thanks everyone for the posts. John, while I'm waiting for this reference book, I was hoping you could verify a couple things.
1)Were all S codes made for the Luftwaffe?
2)Were the "parts" guns made only for commercial sales? Or were these also used for the LW?
Again, thank you. -stuart

Lugerdoc 07-10-2002 08:32 AM

John D, I believe that all S code KH PO8s were made in 1936, before the open dating was allowed.

John D. 07-10-2002 09:27 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Lugerdoc:
<strong>John D, I believe that all S code KH PO8s were made in 1936, before the open dating was allowed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Tom.!

Yes - as according to Gibson, you are absolutely correct, sorry about that..! However, as you may recall, there was a lengthy discussion on the old Forum between Bill M. and myself regarding exactly this topic - when were the "S" codes manufactured/delivered. Gibson states 1936 for all "S" code. However he also states the following:

'Kreighoff production began in late 1934 or early 1935..'

'G Code estimated production was 50 Lugers'

So - that leaves a *huge* gap in production (50 units in late '34/early '35) to 1936 when the Ealy "S" appeared (est. production - 1800 units)? Anyway, given the similiarities in proofs/markings between the "G" and the Early "S" - I also strongly believe that at least the Early "S" (if not all "S" dates) were manufactured in 1935, but I'm still trying to determine when they were actually "delivered".

Additionally, as pointed out by Bill M. in that previous discussioin - in 1936, Mauser abandoned the "letter dating" and went to "1936" - which raises the question as to why Krieghoff would have implemented an "S" code at all during a year that they, in later production that same year, and Mauser simply put "1936" rather then a Letter code? I think where both Bill M. and I ended up is that a reasonable explanation would be that the "S" codes were produced/marked "S" before Germany dropped the "letter" coding, again - strongly indicating 1935 production.

In either case, you are correct - as either of these dates precedes Datig's estimated production date of 1939..!!!

John D. 07-10-2002 10:35 AM

[quote]Originally posted by sschultz:
<strong>...John, while I'm waiting for this reference book, I was hoping you could verify a couple things.
1)Were all S codes made for the Luftwaffe?
2)Were the "parts" guns made only for commercial sales? Or were these also used for the LW?..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Stuart,

To your question 1 - yes, chamber coded "S" Krieghoffs went to the Luftwaffe as part of their original military contract, as did "G" dates, "36", 1936, 1937, etc...

As to question 2 - I'm not sure what you mean by "parts" guns? If you are talking about the DWM 1920/1921 "reworks", yes, those were for commercial sales. Am I mis-reading your question, as I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "parts guns"??

Let me know, OK??!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

sschultz 07-10-2002 11:28 AM

Hello John;
Sorry I didn't clarify this. What I meant by the term "parts" was the use of Simson made components. Thanks. -stuart

John D. 07-10-2002 02:01 PM

Hi Stuart..!

Ahhh - OK, thanks for the clarification.. I'm not aware of any Simson parts used in either Military production or during the "Commercial" era from HK. Post war - yes, on GI assembled HK parts guns - there have been quite a few Simson, Mauser, DWM, etc. parts that were used in their assembly.

Some time ago - there were some discussions regarding whether HK used parts from Simson when they acquired the tooling from that company. Given the visible differences between machining techniques between Simson and HK (frame, cannon, etc.), and supported by the fact that HK machining was fairly consistent throughout their dates of manufacture - point to virtually all the HK production was from their own parts, rather then parts acquired from Simson.

There was also some speculation as to whether Mauser or another supplier sent HK frame forgings for use in their production. However, since HKs are found in alloy metals, it would also lead to believe that HK produced their own frame forgings rather then receive them from another supplier.

Anyway - all of these theories are presented in Gibson's book and more info has been presented throughout the years in the NAPCA newsletter. BOTH (a NAPCA membership and Mr. Gibson's book!) are terrific investments - and will keep your mind spinning with what they contain/offer..!

Best to you!!!

sschultz 07-10-2002 05:01 PM

Once again, thank you very much. You answered my questions, and then some. I will definitely invest in both as you suggest. -stuart

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