LugerForum Discussion Forums

LugerForum Discussion Forums (https://forum.lugerforum.com/index.php)
-   Early Lugers (1900-1906) (https://forum.lugerforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=121)
-   -   An Early 1900 American Eagle (https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=3794)

Dwight Gruber 05-07-2004 02:20 AM

An Early 1900 American Eagle
 
Part 1

The year 1900 marked the beginning of the official production life of the Luger pistol. The Swiss finally had an acceptable model to purchase, and the DWM factory began to sell them on the commercial market as well. Though the Swiss (and other contract and test explorations) are pretty thoroughly documented, the literature and historical interest gives commercial production pretty short shrift.

Commercial interest in the Luger pistol was considerable. There was a market in Germany, somewhat less in France and,pehaps, Great Britain; but the greatest interest was in North America, which by 1907 was receiving more than half of DWM's commercial output (Walter, 1995). These North American deliveries were embossed over the chamber with the eagle from the Great Seal of the United States, the American Eagle, as a sales motivator, and it is these well-recognized model 1900 American Eagle Lugers which are the subject of this presentation.

Model 1900AE production occurred either coincident with or immediately after the 2,000 gun Swiss contract, and their serial number range begins with 2001. By autumn of 1901 at least 7,000 1900AE had been delivered (ibid.) Still and Kenyon are in substantial agreement that 11,000-12,000 pieces were made, and that the serial number range is 2001 to approximately 20000; Walter reports the highest 1900AE serial # as 23362. (Jones's and Reese's statistics on these guns are suspect: Jones claims that 2001 must be considered the beginning fo the Test Eagle series, and Reese begins the American Eagle serial# range with 01.)

The 1900 American Eagle presented here is serial# 2104, the 104th pistol manufactured in the series. It is typical of the 1900 Old Model: 4 3/4" .30 barrel, dished toggles, flat breechblock, long frame, grip safety.

http://www.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104lefta.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104right.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104topsized.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104front.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104squeezer.jpg

1900 American Eagles are found with two kinds of grip safeties. Early guns are found with narrow palm levers, which extend across only half of the rear grip strap, as pictured here. Later safeties extend the full width of the grip strap. Kenyon claims that the narrow grip is present up to about serial# 6000, and that the wide safeties appear on guns serial# 5000 onward. Walter (1991) asserts that the grip safety style changed about serial# 10001, but the older components were used until the parts supply was exhausted.

I can report that gun #6761 (a Test Eagle) has the narrow grip safety, and #13499 has the wide safety. I have seen no database to support either Walter's or Kenyon's numbers, and the subject remains in my mind inconclusive.

Three different thumb safety styles appear on model 1900 Lugers: Type 1, a flat version with crosshatch checkering on the top half; Type 2 (pictured here), a raised end with crosshatching; and Type 3, a raised end with grooves as appears on all other Luger types. According to Kenyon the first type is found up to serial# 6000, the second type from #400 to #7000, and the third type from year 1901 onward (but without serial# specification).

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104fireblue.jpg

There is no Safe or Gesichert stamping on 1900 American Eagle Lugers. Rather, a polished area of the frame is visible when the thumb lever is in the up, or safe, position.

Initial production of the Model 1900 Luger had the takedown lever serial# located on the right end of the lever axle. This becomes a determining characteristic of the Test Eagle only by sheerest coincidence, as this practice was changed during production of guns around the end of the Test Eagle series sale.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...evernumber.jpg

Walter (1997) notes that the right-side lever numbering stopped around 7000 (in 1991 he specifies #7075), noting it missing on Test Eagle #7078 and Commercial #7255. Actually, the number migrated from the right end to the left lever face, before finding a home on the lever's bottom edge. I have not found a published serial# range for these variations, although I observed Test Eagle #7559 with the number stamped on the left face.

Dwight Gruber 05-07-2004 02:33 AM

Part 2

As noted upscreen, 1900AE were produced either coincident with or just after the Swiss Contrract Lugers. Barrels on early American Eagles are found with the Geneva Cross mark which can be found as part of the marking panoply on Swiss Lugers. A database (Ron Martin, Auto Mag) sampling shows them to be present on many 1900AE from 2001 to 2461, with additional high numbered pistols #8937, 8950, and 8951.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...wissdetail.jpg

The meaning of this mark as it appears on a 1900AE (or Commercial) is unclear. Costanzo notes that, as it appears on Swiss Lugers, the Geneva Cross is originally a "definitive proof" (whatever that means), and later became a parts proof. I have heard the opinion that the barrel cross is part of the power-proof marking set for the Swiss pistols.

Since the early Model 1900 production was carried out either coincident with or right after the Swiss contract, it makes sense to me, WAG-ALERT, that the Geneva Crosses which appear on the barrel are Swiss inspector stamps, that they inspected and accepted many more barrels than were ultimately used for the Swiss contract, and that these barrels simply sat in a parts bin and were assembled into commercial pistols until they were used up WAG-OFF.

This example 1900AE displays another controversial mark, the so-called "flaming-bomb" inspector's mark. As this is commonly the only mark found on Test Eagle Lugers, many collectors have associated it with the U.S. Flaming Bomb armory mark. As it is found on early guns--shown here on the bottom of the receiver--and much later guns (it is in the lug well of 1900AE #13499) it cannot have any connection with the U.S. Army.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104lug.jpg

The same mark appears in the lug well of this pistol (not pictured). It can also be found in a very unusual position, stamped on the back face of the side plate extension. It is highlighted in this photograph to make it easier to see.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104inside.jpg

As can be noted on the receiver bottom, the witness mark is a perfect, one-instrument one-strike mark. I believe I am beginning to see detail differences in the witness marks of early Lugers and later production, but have no new conclusions at this time.

The grips on this Luger are serial-numbered to the gun.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/gripsall.jpg

The magazine tubes on early commercial Lugers are distinctive. Instead of being simply nickeled steel, their surface is brushed (Don Rousseau, conversation). This gives them a distinctly different look. This is hard to photograph, but easy to see particularly if one has a sample of each to compare. In the photo below the top magazine is the common finish, the bottom mag has the brushed surface.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104magfull.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104magpin.jpg

The brushed surface shows up a bit in this detail photo of the mag base side, also showing the end of the blued magazine pin. The grip depression of the magazine base does not appear to be its original configuration, but has been either worn or worked to this appearance.

I have not seen this brushed-surface characteristic documented anywhere. This points up the fact that, no matter how good the published material on Lugers is (and some of it is very, very good) there is no substitute for actual contact and conversation with collectors of many years experience and hands-on examination and comparison of many different Lugers.

This magazine is unmarked on its base, proper for early commercial Lugers. The GERMANY export stamp was placed on magazine bases of Lugers sold out of the country between the two World Wars (ibid.).

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104magbase.jpg

At first glance this front sight of this Luger seemed to be a Marbles or a Shears sight. However, magnification shows it to be the standard steel 1900 sight, filed to an approximation of one of these target sights.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2104sight.jpg

I've done a number of these Luger profiles now, and it should be noted that, as a relative beginner at this hobby, I could not write them without the original research, survey participation, and publication of more collectors than can possibly be named; they have my appreciation and my thanks. In regards 1900 American Eagle #2104, I must thank specifically Russ Withem who put me onto this gun in the first place, Don Rousseau from whom I learned some things about serious collecting and early Lugers, and Ron Wood who graciously forwarded me American Eagle database material.

--Dwight

jamese 05-07-2004 05:10 AM

Dwight,
Great Job!
Thank you for the time spent putting this togather and sharing it.

Jim

Strider 05-07-2004 09:28 AM

Great job Dwight! Thanks for sharing this and taking the time to write it up. We really do appreciate it very much.

Sid.

John Sabato 05-07-2004 10:24 AM

BRAVO DWIGHT!

An excellent essay, and remarkably good photographs that we have come to to expect from you. I would say your status as a "beginner" collector is beginning to wear off! :)

Please keep up the good work!

Double O 05-14-2004 04:51 PM

Dwight,
A most excellent effort on the Early AE. I was particularly interested in your explaination of the Swiss Cross on the bbl. I have been curious about these pistols since I acquired mine. Your efforts have answered many of my questions. Thanks so much for your fine article. BTW, mine is S/N 2146. It matches your description to the letter except for one facet. There is no "flaming bomb" on the side-plate. The side plate is numbered to and appears original to the gun, just no "bomb".
Not quite in the condition of yours, I would be happy to share photos if you are interested.

Yr. Humb. Svt.

Ronnie

John Sabato 05-14-2004 05:26 PM

Double O,

Welcome to the Lugerforum and please post some sharp photos of your early Luger...

Dwight Gruber 05-14-2004 09:23 PM

Ronnie,

Thanks for your kind comments. Thanks also for the info on your Luger, it has been added to the database I am working on regarding some of these characteristics.

You may have noticed that there is not as much attention paid to these early Lugers as there is to some of the other models, would love to see pictures.

--Dwight

Double O 05-15-2004 08:43 AM

Dwight,
Thanks to you---. I know how much trouble it is to compile the info you are after. You are doing a real service to all "collectors". I'm not a collector, just a "fan" of lugers. have been for many years.
I'm trying to figure out how to post to this forum, and as soon as I can, will put my photos in this thread.

Ronnie

Edward Tinker 05-15-2004 10:54 PM

Ronnie, more pictures when you post again! :)

Ed

John Sabato 05-17-2004 10:20 AM

Ronnie, there is a how to post photos tutorial in the Site Help & Feedback Forum at the very top...

Dwight Gruber 05-24-2004 01:37 AM

Credit where it is due, the 1900 database material Ron Wood forwarded me is his research. Ron has been very generous and helpful in my explorations of early Lugers.

--Dwight

sheepherder 08-13-2015 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato (Post 27380)
An excellent essay, and remarkably good photographs that we have come to to expect from you...

Unfortunately, the photos do not seem to have survived. This reads like an interesting essay, but without pictures, it's not very clear. :(

Is there any way to retrieve the pics???

Sergio Natali 08-14-2015 04:33 AM

Dwight

As a confirmaion of what you said in fact I've got two AEs # 7234 with narrow safety grip, manual safety 1st series 3rd variation and # 14124 wide safety grip, 2nd/3rd series 4th/5th variation manual safety

Thanks a lot for sharing those pages of history, early Lugers to me are among the most fascinating!

Rgds


Sergio

Ron Wood 08-14-2015 10:02 AM

The original posts in this thread are 11 years old! The forum software has undergone a number of upgrades/revisions in that period. Unfortunately the links to images are not preserved when these modifications take place. It would be an impossible task for John D. to go through all of the thousands of posts and repair the links, it has to be done by the individual originator of the posts. For example, I had to go back in and restore the images in my "Early Frame" and "Dutch Magazines" tutorials (2004 and 2007 respectively). Hopefully Dwight will still have the images for this thread and will have the time to repair them. It is a bit of a tedious process so he should be given understanding if it does not happen.

AR-50A1 01-12-2016 10:29 PM

1900 AE Luger
 
9 Attachment(s)
Additional informationHello Dwight,

Here is my latest addition: A 1900 American Eagle Luger in exceptional condition that I purchased from Checkpoint Charlies (s/n 13568). I purchased it with the understanding that it may have experienced an early professional restoration because it just looks 'too nice'.

The barrel shows corrosion but the inside surfaces of the frame as well as the barrel extension are corrosion free.

Matching numbers include the barrel, barrel extension (lug), locking bolt, side plate, rear toggle link, front toggle link (inside), breech block, trigger and grip safety. Nickle plated magazine with plain wood bottom.

Safety catch is a Type 3. The frame has been 'buffed in the white' under the safety catch when it is rotated to the 'up' (SAFE) position. The grip safety is the 'wide' type.

A 'flaming bomb' is stamped into the frame well located behind the locking bolt The toggle lock is also present and operational.

There are no proof marks present (other than the flaming bomb).

A very beautiful example. This pistol has the flat main spring and the one piece extractor (both prone to breaking).

Comments are always welcome.

Bill

January 16, 2016 Additional Information

"The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols" by Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess, Vol. II (red covers)
Table 10/II: Old Model Production - 1901, page 592, Pistols in the range s/n of 8,000 and up, placement of serial number

Stripping Latch (locking bolt): Bottom
Magazine Latch (magazine release): None
Safety Lever Type: II > III
Germany Import Mark: Yes
Sear Bar: None
Frame Well Marks: Flaming Bomb plus the number 1
Receiver Ring Number Marks: 3 to 5

lugerholsterrepair 01-12-2016 10:44 PM

Bill, if that's a professional restoration I couldn't see it.

Sergio Natali 01-13-2016 05:25 AM

Bill

When I see a vintage gun looking "too perfect to be true" I always wonder if a good restorer in the past might have worked on it.
Anyway restored or not it's a gorgeous pistol.
Congratulations indeed Bill!

alvin 01-13-2016 07:51 AM

I agree with Sergio. It's a restored gun. There are quite a few signs showing that, its back view is soft, missing halo on places that halo should appear, grip panels older than blue unbalanced,,,

But that's already in price. So no problem at all.

John Sabato 01-13-2016 08:06 AM

Beautiful gun. But I believe it was restored at some point in time... no marks on the back of the gun from working the toggle or being fired, and the gentle curved bevels on the front of the upper receiver look too "soft" instead of defined machine lines to be original...

regardless... This gun is absolutely BEAUTIFUL :thumbup: I am envious! :cheers:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2024, Lugerforum.com