War trophy papers
 

Can anyone tell me how much war trophy papers effect the value of a Luger? A guy wants to sell me a Luger he has with 4 out of 7 matching Ser#s. It is a Mauser with 70% finish, no pitting and an original holster with WW2 war trophy papers. The gun to me is worth $400 to $600. How much should I include for the papers? Thanks __________Mike

Re: War trophy papers
 

Mike,


Since the pistol is not all matching, be very careful that the Capture Papers are genuine. There have been blank Capture Papers for sale on e-bay and it is easy to fake these up. With the advent of scanners and computers, these papers again can be faked up. Just look closely at the paper, ink, the style type on the papers, etc. and assure yourself they are real.


I agree that the top value of the pistol and holster should not exceed $600. I have always felt that the Capture Papers may add $50 to the value of the pistol from it's basic value. Others may have another opinion because I have seen others say they add no value, and others say it add approx. $100. IMHO, I feel $50 is average.


Marvin

Re: War trophy papers
 

FWIW - If the pistol is an all matching, then capture papers are worth $25 to $50. If the pistol is NOT matching, then ZIP, Nada, Zero, Null, etc.

A thought on "bring backs"..
 

All the Lugers that are in the US are not vet bring backs. Authentic 'capture' papers only verify that the pistol you have was brought back by a vet. I have a mint Nambu rig, (Pistol, Holster, cleaning rod, spare firing pin, lanyard, and even the soldiers spurs!)..all identified on the 1946, signed in triplicate, US War Dept. declaration papers. How much does it add in dollars? That I can't say, but it makes it more valuable to me..I know that it all came back together.

Re: War trophy papers
 

Hi Mike,


Papers on a mis-mathced Luger have no value - and may not even be genuine. This sounds like a shooter, value $300 - $400, with or without papers.


Hope this helps.


Best regards,


Kyrie

War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

I agree emphatically with Kyrie. Capture papers are worthless with a mismatched Luger. I do not understand who such papers can be important to aside from the vet who brought it back and his descendents. Otherwise, a military issued Luger was definitely used to some extent during wartime, and the papers prove nothing we did not already know. Certainly, they do not mention the circumstances surrounding the capture of the pistol, only that the GI has official permission to keep it. In most instances, vet bringbacks were not taken from live enemy soldiers, anyway. The majority were picked up off piles of surrendered weapons, or found in unoccupied quarters, or won in crap games, or traded for chocolate bars. Whether or not they were brought back with official permission should be of little interest, and such papers should not have a significant bearing on the value. And now to address another point: I have noticed a disturbing tendency to refer to Lugers as "almost matching," or "practically matching," and in the above case, "four out of seven parts matching." This is a trend which must be discouraged, as the next thing we know values will become proportional to the percentage of matching parts. Non-matching is non-matching, and the value plummets the moment one part is not correct. That's why we coined the term "shooter."

Re: Almost Matching
 

AARON, that "almost matching" sounds a little like "just a little bit pregnant" It either is or isn't, (Or as Hugh would say " You-uns either is or Aint pregnant") no gray areas. I agree with you completely! Thor

Re: War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

I saw one the other day, a guy on "another forum" said he was looking for a certain numbered parts so he could "KEEP" his Luger ALL MATCHING, this is silly! Made you think he thought someone had stolen his original part and would send it back to him at request. Thor

Allmos machin Looger
 

Ah got a allmos machin Looger, hit got too parts thet match, an anotha thre parts thet match, an sum mo that almos match, an tha magisine is onley 32 nombrs offen tha fram nombr. Is hit worth mo then a unmatchd wun?

Re: War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

I don't put much value on having the "capture" paper, regardless of match or mis-match pistol status. One question: Several of you have equated a mis-matched part on a Luger with non-collector status, since the magazine is such a major and vital part of the pistol am I to assume that you feel that a mis-matched mag makes a Luger non-collectable? It is for sure a fact that any Luger with a mismatched magazine is only "almost matching"!

Re: War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

I dont know what others think, but due to the fact on how most Lugers were captured, and they were separated from their mags, I consider a Luger to have all "original" (that part is tough to be 100% sure of) parts a matching original Luger. MOST Lugers dont have matching mags so I think a matching mag is viewed from my perspective as icying on the cake. A very nice addition. Matching mags are a whole study in themselves because SO MANY have been reground and renumbered. A consider a Luger that is all matching original as a real COLLECTION find but it needs to be accompanied by a matching "TYPE" magazine. If the mag matches serial numbers so much the better, but this is very rare and COSTS more so it is viewed from my perspective with a lot of suspicion. Thor

Re: What is matching?
 

I appreciate the response, but where the logic starts getting flakey is as follows:

1. Late Byf 41 and all 42 era Lugers are considered correct with un-numbered black plactic bottom mags... even though there is no way to verify that one of these mags with a byf has been with that pistol since it left the factory.

2. The argument that mis-matched mags can be somewhat excused as not destroying the Luger's collectability status is based on the relativly small number of surviving/available examples with matching mags, this is really a crutch to make an exception of collectability. A holdopen or toggle axle pin is truly a much less signicant part to be mismatched than is a mag....just not as commonly encountered.

3. Seems crazy that a Simson all matched (two magazine) 98% blue, mismatched Simson firing pin, Luger brought back by my Grandfather is simply a $500 shooter because the firing pin is mismatched. While a 1940 dated 42 code, 85%, mismatched magazine (but otherwise matched) Luger is a collector grade gun....

4. I personally would be reluctant to switch mags around on a Luger that I knew from the vet was captured with an incorrect mismatched mag...just in order to make it right in the eyes of a collector.

5. Just as a general observation, I believe in my heart of hearts from decades of collecting and talking to vets (both U.S and German), that many German weapons had parts replaced in the field by the German soldiers and amorers with salvaged parts...this may not mean a flip to "purist collectors" but it certainly impacts the historical context of a firearm...I realize that the challenge is determining what is and what is not a wartime replace ...mostly impossible.

Re: What is matching?
 

BCC, I certainly respect and appreciate your comments! Thor

Re: What is matching?
 

It is interesting how we appraise the value of a Luger by whether it is all matching (with some exceptions) and then by the condition (with some exceptions) and then by the rarity of the variation (with some exceptions) and finally, by the included accessories (with, again, more exceptions). Anyone just dropping into this hobby has got to be a little overwhelmed. I think about the simple question we see here often..."I just bought a Luger, how much is it worth?"

You have stated it well!
 

Bill, You have encapsulated my 30+ year struggle very well. It is very interesting to envision how collecting would be just as fun and perhaps more valid if those three criteria you named were re-prioritized. Say for instance...Rarity, condition, matching numbered parts ( the last does not apply to U.S 20th century martial arms of course...they did not have numbered individual parts). Fun topic but I will shut-up for now..Thanks

Re: You have stated it well! (EOM)
 

Re: You have stated it well!
 

Almost right. The Colt 1911A1 had the slide numbered to the frame from serial number 710001 to approximately 1140000. This was the full serial number as stamped on the frame. These are some of the most highly collectible of the more common 1911A1 pistols.

Mismatched magazines
 

Pistol magazines are meant to be interchangable and to me are a separate part of the pistol much like the "en bloc" clip is to the M1 rifle. I agree that a mismatched firing pin or hold-open device should not render an otherwise collectible pistol to shooter status. If these parts had not been numbered, you would have no way of telling the difference.

Many weapons used in battle had replaced parts which is why original WW II M1 rifles and carbines are so rare.

Re: Mismatched magazines
 

I think the point you make is about the emphasis put on 100% matching being too strong. As you state, there are parts that definitely were and will be replaced due to use. Sometimes I think that 'all matching' goes a little too far, but if it is numbered at the factory it counts as a match. Too bad it is such a temptation to make it all match again. I would really like to get my hands on a minty Powell cartridge counter that is in shooter condition due to a mismatched firing pin.

Re: War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

It all depends.

I have found a P38 collector who will offer more than double what a pistol of mine is worth, merely because it has not one, but *both* of the original capture paper forms accompanying it. It seems the GI was in a military hospital and never turned in the duplicate form, keeping it and the copy he was supposed to have both with the pistol. This particular collector has a fondness for guns with capture papers, and is willing to pay a high premium for them.

If I ever need to raise a bit of cash in a hurry, I suppose I may sell it to him, as it is a common ac code pistol, (in great shape, but still...) but for the moment it will remain with me.

Re: Mismatched magazines
 

I have to agree with you .

Its a shame that fine relics are so degraded in walue by set rules that fail to consider such fine restorations as have been accomplished by "Thor" and others and fails to receive its true walue at the market place. And thereby

deprive these true artists their due respect for returning these fine items to practically un detectable original condition .

Why in the world should a matching 1906 Eagle, if restored by "Thor" or other equally capable artizan, be relegated to shooter status .


ViggoG

Re: What is matching?
 

BCC,


I like your posting and agree with what you have to say. I buy a Luger because I WANT it! Yes, I prefer an all matching pistol including matching magazine, but only about 40% of my collection have matching and this includes the 1941 and 1942 plastic bottom rigs which may or MAY NOT be the magazines that came with the pistol. I have a very nice Luger which I purchased from a Vet that is "almost matching"; the pistol matches, including the magazine, except the entire toggle train is from another DWM pistol. How did this happen that the entire toggle train is different, I don't know and the Vet did not know. This is the way ot was when he traded for it from another soldier. I don't think the other soldier would have had the knowledge to make this change, so it was probably repaired at some German field armory; maybe??????


Anyway, the pistol is non matching and was priced as a normal mismatched pistol. I still consider this to be "collectible" and not in the shooter catagory, but priced in that range. I am sure that many parts were changed by Germans in the field to keep the pistols operational and this shold not effect the "collectability", just the price. I agree that the Wording being used by dealers like "almost all matching" is wrong, a mis-matched pistol is a mis-matched pistol and should be priced accordingly. What most purist Luger collectors want is exactly what came from the factory and the bewt condition possible. I do prefer all matching, but if I like the pistol I will buy it. Just because there may be a mis-matched part does not seem to relegate the pistol to shooter only. I feel most any Luger except the made-up parts pistols are collectible. I think the Russian imports are collectible; only their value is not what an original would be. The imports have allowed many people to become interested in Lugers because the are affordable. Many folks cannot afford to pay the $1000 and up for a collectible Luger and the imports have added many new Luger lovers who may be able to buy a more collectible Luger in the future. Also, the imports still have the same history, or maybe even a better history than the ones brought back from the Western Front. Sorry for the long post.


Marvin

Non-Matchinn Vet Bring backs...
 

I had a vet bring back once that was an S/42 1937 model. All parts matched except the Trigger and Sideplate which were matched to each other, and the rear toggle pin, which was a separate number. It came home with a chipped wooden mag bottom, which when when dropped for the last time, disassembled itself and was discarded. I bought him a functional mexican made replacement at a gun show when I found out he didn't have one.


I knew the vet personally and still do. He captured the luger in this condition from a young German officer in Belgium, doesn't own any other guns, and has Never been to a gunshop or a gunshow. It is one of those "top shelf of the closet wrapped in a soft rag" kind of mementos.


My best guess is a field repair by a German armorer... with parts from a couple of lugers that may have been battle damaged. Does this make that pistol any less authentic? I think not, does it make it valuable to a dyed-in-the-wool collector (I really don't care) If I can ever talk him out of it, It will remain with me until my time on earth is gone. I know this pistol saw combat, and is a relic of a period in the last century that outraged the world, and for which most of the current generation has no appreciation.


A sidebar: This vet told me that he threatened the German officer when he interrogated him, that if he didn't tell him what he wanted to know, he would shoot him with his own pistol... Although I believe he was bluffing, when confronted with the muzzle of his own gun, this soldier gave more than his serial number, name, rank, and date of birth.


I can tell you that I and sure that I NEVER want to experience seeing the muzzle of a gun so close that I can count the lands and grooves unless I am checking an empty bore for fouling!


-JS

Re: War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

Hannah, I have been with a collector at a gun show who was intently trying to talk someone down on a Luger (it was worth about half what the individual was asking). As soon as the guy behind the table pulled out the papers (not xerox copies) the man I was with pulled out his wallet. You are right, to some folks the papers add an air of 'combat authenticity' to the piece.

Re: War trophy papers: A few more thoughts
 

I have a Mauser HSc my father who was in the 101 Airborne brought home. When I was a kid I found a document on it-it was a form printed on a half sheet of paper signed by some duty officer stating he had examined "items of captured enemy equipment" which was this pistol and a pair of binoculars and passed them as legit souvenirs.

He had recorded the serial number on the magazine instead of the one on the pistol.

I personally would not give two cents for "capture papers" but that is my own opinion.

Anyone who has bothered to fill their military obligation will be familiar as to how arbitrary and haphazard these types of things things are in actual practice.


Mike P