Municipal Police marking
 

I have what I believe is a commercial model Luger, made by DWM. The serial number is 93xxb, it has a sear safety, and the marking on the front of the grip strap is "S. Hn. 184.". There is no grip safety, and there is a shoulder stock lug on the back of the grip frame. Anyone know what municipality is indicated by "S. Hn." ? Thanks in advance.

Richard, if the serial number is 93xxb, then it would be in the military style and usually not in the commerical style. Was there something that made you believe it was a commerical?

A sear safety, if like this picture http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...fety_copy1.jpg

The sear safety is on the top of the picture, then it is a police with the sear added 1933.

Any numbers on the top of the gun? i.e. a date or dates?

"S. Hn. 184.". This could be S = Schutzpolizei (municiple police force) Hn = unk and then the 184 would be the weapons number. I have seen Hn before, and will look it up...

Ed

Hannover

In Weimar Lugers it has a H. for Hannover, that is why I didn't state that?
But I really don't know?
Ed

Ed, H and Hn have both been credited to Hannover, if you have info otherwise would love to hear it....As for me Costanzo's personal letters of about 25 years ago gave me this info??

This is a quote from a previous posting on another forum;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">S.Hn.11. signifies: Schutzpolizei Hn. weapon no. 11. The Hn is not on the Prussian State Police district list. H signifies Hannover and Hi signifies Hildesheim.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No one was sure what it meant, to include Jan Still, so I took that as a reliable source of not knowing what Hn stood for. In my database of a few guns, I know of two other guns that have Hn, but I am unsure of what it actually means, although Hannovor is as good a guess as anything.

Ed

Hn is not listed in the Prussian marking instructions in G�¶rtz & Bryans, H is designated for Hannover.

In my attempt to track down the H.P. police markings it has been suggested to me that there are State police organizatons beside Prussian and Bavarian, whose marking instructions, if they had them, have been destroyed or not discovered.

It would be premature to come to a final conclusion concerning marks which are not documented. I'd like to know where Costanzo got his information.

--Dwight

Dwight, all of Costanzo's letters to me were kept, some upwards of 30 years old, should I ever get out of Luger collecting, I believe the letters should go to you....however I took Sam's word as fact and did not question it.

Howard, did Costanzo say where he heard this or have proof? (not doubting the gentlemen by any means, but thought he might have had reasoning for thinking this?)

Ed

Sam has done one heckuva lot of data collection and research. In recent correspondence with him he provided nearly 100 additional serial numbers of Lugers with US Test Trial characteristics (below, within and above the 6100-7100 range), a few of which I had already recorded. I am sorting through the rest and slowly updating my database. I hope to be able to post an update to the listings in the Members Gallery in the not too distant future.
Anyway, that is a digression on my intended observation that Sam knows a lot of stuff, most of which is correct.

Ed, no he did not, however I am sure I still have all his letters, someday I'll go through them again, and I will get the war trophy papers to you soon...

To all:
Having started at least this recent thread, let me add a little more confusion. As I mentioned at the beginning, the front of the grip frame is stamped "S. Hn. 184.". One of the two magazines has stamped on the back edge "S.H.184.". On its aluminum base are the four digits of the serial number and the number "2" below. Above the four digit number is stamped a 45 degree arc, concave forward (upward), with 7 radial lines pointing to the rear (downward). There is what looks like a number "6" below this mark.
The other magazine has no unit marking on it, but does have the serial number and "1" marked on the base. On the right side of the magazine, just above the base is stamped "STARK"

Ed, you asked in your reply why I thought my Luger was commercial vice military. Someone on another forum told me that the crown over N proofs on the left sides of the toggle and receiver (and no other proof marks) indicated commercial. The breech bolt has the two digit number, but no proof mark. You also asked about numbers on the top. The only numbers are the last two digits of the serial number: on the extractor, the forward toggle link (just to the rear of the script DWM), and the end of the rear toggle link.
If I can get good digital pix of the markings (gun and magazines), and how to post them, I will do so in a few days. Thanks again for all of your interest and comments.

td; well S.H.184 equals Schutzpolizei, Hannover, gun number 184. I don't want to assume anything, but I take it that you have two matching magazines? If so, then this is a very good zeroing in on Costanzo's and thus Howards assertion that S.Hn. is also Hannover.

Do a search on Jan Stills forum for S.H. and you will see two threads on this subject.

There is a very good chance it started out as a commerical, as the police bought many of them. But, it could very well be a imperial, refurbished for the weimar period. We would need to know if the crown N was upright or "lazy, i.e. on its side.

There is a tutorial under the help area.

Ed

Ed,
The crown N on the left side of the forward toggle is "lazy", with the crown forward. The crown N on the left side of the receiver is upright, and actually is an overstrike on the serial number (third digit).

I found the tutorial on picture posting, thanks.

The magazines, looking at the bases, appear to be matching, i.e., same four digit number as each other and the gun, with one numbered "1" and the other "2". The do have the differences noted in my earlier post today, which I had not noticed until close examination last night and this afternoon. So, yes, it may be possible that with the gun marked S. Hn. and the magazine marked S. H., maybe H. and Hn. are both Hannover.

Rich

Let me continue to devilishly advocate.

There are collectors who are suspicious or sceptical about markings which are not in ordnung, who assert that one can only draw positive conclusions about Lugers whose markings strictly adhere to the instructins for their application. In their view the magazine spine marking would be another indication that this pistol's markings cannot represent Hannover, because it is marked in a way which is not specified in any known State's instructions. I have run into exactly this set of opinions with the HP./H.P. controversy.

This assertion does not apparently allow for error or misinterpretation on the part of the armorers who actually stamp the pistols, and does not address known markings which can only be the result of such mistake (LSAl./LS.Al).

The figure on the magazine described as an arc with lines over a 6 is most likely an Eagle/6, the inspector's marking associated with Simson.

--Dwight

TD...I live in the high desert area about 4 hours north of you if I am correct. I would love to see this Luger, see if I can find sone hidden details. My digital will not allow for fine detail, perhaps yours will..."STARK" marked mags are rare, made between 1923 and 1935.

FWIW I have a 1920 alphabet police Luger #1465a. proofed E/ArA4. Front grip strap marked "S.Hn.II.5.117." Matched alum bottom mag #1 Sunburst/S, marked on spline "S.H.II.5.117." Mag markings are smaller than those on grip strap. Perhaps it was common to drop the "n" on mags.

Regards Ken D

DG,
I concur with the notion that even 20th century Germans may not have always marked according to plan. Guess that just adds to the "fun" of unraveling these little mysteries. Oh, and after sending my previous post, I found the Tech Info items on markings and agree that the one mag base marking looks like one of the examples of Simson acceptance stamps.

ken d,
Is the Sunburst/S what I described in an earlier post, i.e., is what I thought a "6" actually an "s"?

The Tech Info also makes me wonder if the letter in my Luger's serial number is actually "l" rather than "b".

policeluger, I can usually get to Barstow in under two hours, Victorville about 30 minutes less. (OK, on a good day, or on a motorcycle, in a cage, it can take longer). In which high desert area do you live? Maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle. Meanwhile, I still plan to post the pix, if they turn out ok.

In closing, I have owned the Luger for about 18 months, but only recently found this site and one other. I have learned quite a bit in just a few days of help from you all. Thanks.

Supplying pictures would help in deciding if it is a 6 or an S, otherwise we are just guessing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Look under the suffix pictures I have posted and see how they compare, again, pictures would help a lot :D

http://www.lugerforum.com/Suffixes/Suffixes.htm

Ed,
I just noticed on the pic you sent a few days ago, the number on the sideplate was low, whereas mine is slightly above the middle. Actually, the bottom of the two numbers looks to be right in the middle, top to bottom. When I can get pix of this I will show you how mine looks. However, is the vertical location evidence of this being a police sideplate or not?

One more thing I noticed is the little pin in the sear safety (Schiwy Sicherung) is missing. Maybe this happens in an 80-year old gun, or maybe it was removed by someone who had a non-police sideplate. The sear bar does have a hole in it to accept the pin, if it were there.

With all the correct parts intact and in place, how does the pin ride up on top of the sideplate when the action cycles? Is there a ramp surface on the topside of the police sideplate?

td...I have sent you a PM.

PL,
PM back at you.

Thunderdawg:
Costanzo,World of Lugers,item 61a, defines the Sunburst over S as "1929-1932 late Police proof. The initial S represents Sonderpolizei." Hard to tell if this is the proof on yours without pics.
I have no pic capability on my old computer.

Regards Ken D

To all,
Just took a few dozen pix. Will attempt to boil them down to a few to post to show: serial and suffix markings on barrel and receiver, magazine base markings, STARK marking on one mag, and the proof marks on toggle and receiver. Shooting pix with a digital cam is a whole new process compared to film. But you all knew that. Cheers.

I would like to see all the pics if you are interested in sending them to me. :)

You could send them in a couple of e-mails if you don't want them to clog up both of our e-mail boxes. :D

Ed

Whew, I have 12 pix that cover the markings, plus many other duplicates. They have been edited to reduce the size, images range from 51KB to 126KB, and are in Mozilla JPEG format. Not wanting to run afoul of forum protocols, if I copied these 12 pix to the server and did the copy and paste to another message (not sure about the copy and paste part?), will that be ok?

And to Ed, if you would like, I can copy all the pix to a CD and mail to you. The full files range from about 250KB to 350KB. They would be subdivided in folders as to subject for viewing ease.

td, are you on dial up or broadband? If broadband, then just e-mail 6 at a time to me. If on dial up then whatever is fine.

You can place 8 pictures at a time onto each posting, then the other four. There is a tutorial that some wantabe expert put on posting pictures under the help forum. Essentially, you upload the piccies, then copy the url, place the url here in the box and then add [img] and [/img] before and after of each url (no spaces). Sounds much more difficult than it is.

Ed

Hi,

After seeing the close-ups of the pistol and the magazines, I have to conclude there is something about the serial numbers and the proofs that is somewhat confusing.

Both magazines have numberings from different facilities, as do parts of the pistol. The dies used for the receiver/barrel differ from those on the frame and the side plate. Some other parts show die differences also.

Furthermore, the dies used on mag 1 differ from those on mag 2.

It appears that a commercially numbered pistol was changed to military style numbering.

The dies on mag 2 and the receiver main number are consistant with Simson use. The other dies are consistant with DWM/Mauser use.

A Simson rework?

Are the pictures going to be posted in this thread?

Don M,
The pictures are in the thread "TD's Police Luger pictures #1". My confusion caused them to be posted on a new thread instead of this one. Sorry about that.

Had a great visit this afternoon with Rich and this "Hannover" police in question. 1. one of the mags is marked on the splice with "H. S. 184", now we would consider this without question a Hannover stamp, if it appered on the grip in the same mannor, rather then the "Hn" as is on the grip. As it is property numbered to the gun, "184", I feel there is no doubt but this is a Hannover gun. 2. the Stark mag was a replacment mag, later added to the gun and, as would be correct for a lower level maintance depot, and was SN'ed to the gun at that time, differences in size/font ect. can be well accepted as period original/correct...police sear safety is missing the point end, but would be best left alone rather then risk a poor repair, side plate is I believe a later Mauser with same SN, and a poor lever that will be repaired....but I don't think Rich cared about any of this, he just want to know when Mrs.PL was going to be done cooking the elk burgers!

Mr and Mrs policeluger were indeed gracious hosts to this humble owner of merely one police Luger. Having the opportunity to absorb so much information from PL for nearly 3 hours was outstanding, and the 2 elk burgers that I shamelessly devoured were just beyond description. Thanks to them both for such a great day.
Oh, PL, the tool has absolutely no markings that I can find.
And Ed, I will take and post sideplate pix tomorrow, unless I get too engrossed with my "new" CMP M1.

:) TD, I have met policeluger and unfortunately he is even nicer than on the forum! :D Seriously, he's a good guy and this forum has enabled me to meet a heck of a lot of nice guys!

For a first police luger, it is a keeper in my view.

And those CMP M1 are sweet, take a picture of that and add it with the others!

Ed

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/the_boys.jpg

Took a few of the boys out of the safe for TD to look at...all he was interested in was elk burgers !

Outstanding Howard!

These family pictures are great!!

Ed

Not as many or as nice, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/wall_003.jpg

darn CZ-52 sneaking in!!

Howard,

Very nice. I'd tell Ed that his are nice too, but I've seen that wall and said it before...

--dwight

As soon as I resolve my toasted PC problem, will post pictures of the side plate (both sides), and the new to me CMP M1. It (the M1) is much better than I expected, and the turn around was truly amazing. Have not dealt with CMP before, my last similar acquisition was from DCM back in the early '60's: an M1 Carbine for $17.50 plus $2.50 shipping. Oh, right this is the Luger forum. What a dumkopf.

And Howard, it was tough to pull away from looking at your collection, but the elk burgers were speaking to me.