Perfect Luger ammo
 

Been out shooting again, reached into my ammo stash and threw in a couple of boxes of VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm I got from Sportsmanguide a few years ago, loaded it into my 1918 shooter, and was it amazing. That gun acted like my ugly dog when I dropped a chicken leg off the grill. SNAP! It was gone. Accuracy was very good and the functioning was perfect. Granted, having Thor restore it had a lot to do with it, but I'd sure like to have another 1,000 or so rounds of that. Anybody know where any can be had?

rk

Roadkill, saw some Finnish 9mm for sale in the last few Shotgun News, but don"t know if it was the right stuff.
Lonnie

Thanks Lonnie, if its not too much trouble, can you provide a point of contact?

rk

RK, some Finnish ammo here
http://www.samcoglobal.com/ammo.html

Herb, I'll once again exhibit my ignorance, but which one of those is for a 9mm Luger?

rk

RK, the only Luger ammo on that page is the first item; the .30 Luger cartridges which is not what you're looking for I don't think. The 9mm Browning Long has a longer case than the 9mm Luger and is a weaker cartridge.

Roadkill; Doubs is right, the 9mm Finnish is no longer for sale. It has been in the last few months, and if it shows up again I will contact you. Sorry!

Doubs, I think that the 9mm long is the regular 9mm round opposed to the 9mm short which is what we call the .380 ammo. The Germans call it 9mm Kurz. Before ordering anything an email to them might be in order.

There is a 9mm long or 9mm Largo. Not to be confused with the 9mm parabellum. I can't remember what was chamberd for it.

Some Astra's, and other guns...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Herb:
<strong>Doubs, I think that the 9mm long is the regular 9mm round opposed to the 9mm short which is what we call the .380 ammo. The Germans call it 9mm Kurz. Before ordering anything an email to them might be in order.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Herb, while I don't have a copy of "Cartridges of the World", in "Handguns of the World" the 9mm Browning Long is listed as having a 20mm straight-walled semi-rimmed case. Hatcher's book "Pistols and Revolvers", published in 1927, shows the cartridge firing a 110 grain bullet at 1100 FPS and having 300 FtLbs of energy. It's not quite up to Parabellum strength. It hasn't been loaded in the US in many years I don't believe.

Gentlemen,

Below is a list of cartridges that all are designated "9mm". Chances are that there are many other 9mm cartridges, these are just the ones that Iâ??m familiar withâ?¦

9mm Kurz also known as... 380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), (9mm Browning Short), (9mm Corto)
9mm Makarov (9x18 PM)
9mm Makarov Modif. (9x18 PMM)
9mm Parabellum (Luger), (9x19)
9mm SP-10 (9x21 Russian)
9mm Steyr (9x23) loaded down from largo and the case has differing dimensions.
9mm Largo (9x23), (Spanish)
9mm (9x23) Winchester Very close to 9mm Largo dimensions, but loaded to higher pressures (not interchangeable).
The cartridges below are generally accepted as being interchangeable with the 9mm Largo.
9mm Bayard Long (9x23)
9mm Astra M. 1921
9mm BERGMANN 1910/21
9mm DANISCHE PISTOLEN PATRONE
9mm STAR SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE
9mm BAYARD
9mm BAYARD ARMEE PISTOL
9mm BERGMANN "MARS" no. 6
9mm no. 6 BERGMANN
9mm MARS
9mm STAR AUTO-PISTOL
9mm BERGMANN-BAYARD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BYF-42:
<strong>The cartridges below are generally accepted as being interchangeable with the 9mm Largo.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'd be a bit careful here for actual shooting use. Conventional wisdom has it that the Astra 400 (9mm Largo) is able to chamber and fire a number of different straight-case 9mm rounds, including even 9mm Parabellum! It can do this because the gun is -way- overbuilt and has a very hefty extractor. I've tried this with 9mm Parabellum, it works, but there is an awful lot of gas and powder blowback into the chamber between the cartridge and chamber wall, and long-term use of ammo with cases shorter than the 9mm Largo will eventually wear away the front of the chamber and destroy its headspace.

Although these other cartridges may be aproximately interchangeable, I've never heard that other guns will safely interchange them, and I don't think it would be a good idea to try.

--Dwight

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Roadkill:
<strong>Been out shooting again, reached into my ammo stash and threw in a couple of boxes of VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm I got from Sportsmanguide a few years ago, loaded it into my 1918 shooter, and was it amazing. That gun acted like my ugly dog when I dropped a chicken leg off the grill. SNAP! It was gone. Accuracy was very good and the functioning was perfect. Granted, having Thor restore it had a lot to do with it, but I'd sure like to have another 1,000 or so rounds of that. Anybody know where any can be had?

rk</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">In the German Text book "Die Pistole 08", there is a short section on Luger ammo. In it, the author claims that the Finnish 9MM military ammo is loaded to the original Parabellum formula. Perhaps he was right!

Sieger

Dwight,

Quite so! Old firearms + ammunition not specifically manufactured to chamber in the gun of choice = research, research, research or catastrophe every time. As in so many things associated with the firearms hobby, â??Caveat Emptorâ?�!

Thankfully, this hobby is one of those activities were natural selection tends to weed out the really stupid ones. One can only hope to be nowhere near by when knuckle dragging Neanderthalâ??s luck runs out.

Hello Everyone,
Maybe someone here who reloads their own ammo can find some of this VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm and take some rounds apart to see how much powder,type of power,type of bullet,primer,case size,etc. that was used to make this ammo and maybe we can learn how the Germans setup the 9mm parabellum and how it should be made. It was said that this round was setup to original spec. of the 9mm. Any one think this is a good idea? Or maybe we can ask the Finnish what the spec.is.
Best Regards

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by MG:
<strong>Hello Everyone,
Maybe someone here who reloads their own ammo can find some of this VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm and take some rounds apart to see how much powder,type of power,type of bullet,primer,case size,etc. that was used to make this ammo and maybe we can learn how the Germans setup the 9mm parabellum and how it should be made. It was said that this round was setup to original spec. of the 9mm. Any one think this is a good idea? Or maybe we can ask the Finnish what the spec.is.
Best Regards</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear MG

There is no need to ask the Finns, as the Germans have already told us. I have the original texts from the period and have all of the information you need to recreate the perfect Paraballum load. When loaded to the exact specs, you will have outstanding accuracy and perfect function. Modern powders will take only a small amount of experimentation.

Sieger

Dear Sieger,
Is this infomation in a book or where can I find it on the web?

Thank you

Doubs et al, The 9mmBL (Browning Long) ammo was original designed for the M1903 FN and the 1908 Husqvarna pistols. I don't know of any other pistols ever designed to use this round. Incidently, I could use an orig 10rd, not the standard 7rd, magazine that will fit these above pistols. TH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by MG:
<strong>Dear Sieger,
Is this information in a book or where can I find it on the web?

Thank you</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">MG:

No, it's not on the web. I've collected it over several years, mostly from original German text materials (it's nice to use my German every now and then). If you would like, you may e-mail me, or, for more fun, call me and I'll be very happy to share it with you.

Once you have learned the basics of Luger loading and its interaction with the function of the "Pistole" (these are easy to learn), you will be able to properly load almost any combination with success.

Sieger

wotan.ny@ix.netcom.com

Sieger; plesae post it here for ALL to see?
Lonnie

I don't think you can reproduce it exactly. I think you can get close with modern powders, but not perfect.

The good news it that if you reload, you can probably do better than original. Of course that has always been the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
<strong>Sieger; plesae post it here for ALL to see?
Lonnie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Lonnie:

I'll tell you what, I'm going to Florida, shortly, where I have excellent range facilities. There, I am planning some real range work with 5 new powders and some new bullet types, as well as, some additional work on some of my old faithful combinations developed over the last 25 years.

As my service to humanity for 2003, I'll write a short article explaining all of the secrets I've learned from the German texts, as well as, my 25 years of load development work and either post it here, or make it available by e-mail.

After reading this article and doing just a little of your own experimentation, I guarantee you that you will not know that you are shooting the same pistol.

Sieger

Roadkill, glad to hear you are enjoying your Luger I rehabed for you!

Sieger; thanks for sharing!! I have done a lot of reloading for the Luger and have come up with 6gr of Unique as the BEST load. No Jams, etc. Look foreward to seeing your research.
Lonnie

8 grs of Blue Dot, with a 124 gr FMJ, in the Artillery Luger (with standard, not weakened mainspring) is super. Some folks will weaken the mainspring to function with a lighter load, but I favor the Blue Dot load with a normal strength mainspring. Ejection is brisk but not overly so. Booms like a rifle. I also favor Unique powder in the 4" Barrel Lugers but I like Blue dot for the longer Artillery!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor:
<strong>8 grs of Blue Dot, with a 124 gr FMJ, in the Artillery Luger (with standard, not weakened mainspring) is super. Some folks will weaken the mainspring to function with a lighter load, but I favor the Blue Dot load with a normal strength mainspring. Ejection is brisk but not overly so. Booms like a rifle. I also favor Unique powder in the 4" Barrel Lugers but I like Blue dot for the longer Artillery!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Thor:

I don't know this for a fact, but it makes good common sense to me, that the LP-08s came with lighter main springs. The Germans didn't issue a special load for the LP-08, they shot regular issue ammo in them. Their regular powder had a burning rate very similar to SR 4756, a rather slow powder, compared to many, that probably worked quite well in those 200mm barrels.

Just a point of interest, how is your accuracy with the Blue Dot load out of a LP-08?

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
<strong>Sieger; thanks for sharing!! I have done a lot of reloading for the Luger and have come up with 6gr of Unique as the BEST load. No Jams, etc. Look forward to seeing your research.
Lonnie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Lonnie:

Are you shooting the 6.0gr Unique load out of a late war Mauser or an earlier DWM model?, Have you changed the mainspring or otherwise modified the pistol in any way? How accurate is the load at, say, 25 yards? Also, what bullet are you using with this load, specifically?

Sieger

Looking over my targets, it seems that accuracy was better with Unique than Blue Dot. Looking over Harry Jones chart on main spring, I really dont see any major difference in main spring strengths. I think the load was just hot enough to be able to function both pistols, I would GUESS that the 4" got hammered a little more from recoil. Looking over powder burning charts your SR 4756 would be about 1/2 way between Unique and Blue dot so it seems like it would be a good powder for the 9mm. Here is one of the better targets.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DLTarget.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DLTarget.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor:
<strong>Looking over my targets, it seems that accuracy was better with Unique than Blue Dot. Looking over Harry Jones chart on main spring, I really dont see any major difference in main spring strengths. I think the load was just hot enough to be able to function both pistols, I would GUESS that the 4" got hammered a little more from recoil. Looking over powder burning charts your SR 4756 would be about 1/2 way between Unique and Blue dot so it seems like it would be a good powder for the 9mm. Here is one of the better targets.
&lt;a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DLTarget.jpg" target="_fullview"&gt;&lt;img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DLTarget.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Thor:

Thank you!! As always, you are a source of much needed practical information. Well, the proof is in the target. I have never been one to argue with success. Was this target shot with or without the stock attached?

Sieger

Geez!!!!!!!! Walmart has great 9mm for 11.50$/box 100. Oh yeah, and it works.............

Sieger, that was without the stock, but in one of my better days. That was with Unique powder. That doesnt mean that with another powder it would have shot even better. I think in a lot of cases we are shooting a milder than original spec load and if that Artillery has a brand new Wolff spring it usually is a bit slugish. I would like to see the load that Roadkill is talking about chronographed to check velocities. Hugh has done quite a bit of chrony work with different modern powders.

Wolff Springs offers a three-pack of springs for the Luger: 36# light; 38# standard & 40# heavy. I believe it comes with a new 10% stronger firing pin spring included as well. I haven't purchased a set in awhile so I'm not really up on prices but Brownell's sells them and I would imagine that TH (Lugerdoc) also has them.

Thor, what was the bullet weight with the 6grs of Unique? And the gun is great. Need to provide instructions with your restorations on removing drool stains though.

rk

Vielen Dank Herr RK! My normal loadings are
#1 Mild-5.2 grs UNIQUE with 124 gr bullet #2 Medium-5.7 grs UNIQUE with 124 gr bullet and #3 heavy is 8.0 grs of BLUE DOT with the 124 gr. With any Luger I would try #1 and check locking back of toggle and ejection, then if more is needed try #2, if ejection is still light go then to #3. PERSONALLY I would not shoot over 6.0 grs of Unique in a Luger with either the 115 or 124 gr bullet. I DONT ENDORSE ANYBODY ELSE USING MY LISTED LOADINGs (and a lot of other legal mumbo jumbo)

Thor,
I chronographed some Lapua VPT 58 out of my Glock 17L with 6" first generation slotted port barrel a few years ago.IIRC it averaged around 1275 fps.The ammo shoots well,berdan primers and bullet are lacquer sealed and the bullet is a lead core with a mild steel jacket.I believe the bullet weight is 123gr.

Sieger; I have an LP 08 that I modified the area where the rear sight was to accept the doctersight from Germany, and it shoots about 1/1/4' at 25 yards with the Winchester 115 gr JHP. I can"t send pictures but Rick Wagner has some of my targets and I have shot with Dwight Gruber. My recoil spring is whatever came with a 1917 Artillery model. Also concerning the Finnish Ammo, I have some VPT 44 ammo, and wrote to them concerning the round and they stated they use the same load today as they did in 1944 and it is 4.3 gr of (I forgot) at 1045 fps.Lonnie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
<strong>Sieger; I have an LP 08 that I modified the area where the rear sight was to accept the doctersight from Germany, and it shoots about 1/1/4' at 25 yards with the Winchester 115 gr JHP. I can"t send pictures but Rick Wagner has some of my targets and I have shot with Dwight Gruber. My recoil spring is whatever came with a 1917 Artillery model. Also concerning the Finnish Ammo, I have some VPT 44 ammo, and wrote to them concerning the round and they stated they use the same load today as they did in 1944 and it is 4.3 gr of (I forgot) at 1045 fps.Lonnie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Lonnie:

You are a lucky dog to have an LP-08 shooter. Please tell me what a doctorsite is.

You have confirmed what I felt would be the specs. of that Finnish ammo, as this vel. falls squarely in the 1020 to 1076fps. range that I have in all of my original texts(123gr. bullet).

I shot some of this ammo in a P-38 in the early 70s and remember that the powder burned so cleanly, that the cases looked as if they had not even been fired. My cases were all brass and were berdan primed, naturally.

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by ratdog:
<strong>Geez!!!!!!!! Walmart has great 9mm for 11.50$/box 100. Oh yeah, and it works.............</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">This is a suprise to me, as the factory stuff is loaded too short for proper step-feeding in the Luger. Velocity is probably ok, if its the Remington stuff though.

Sieger

Gentlemen:

Has anyone out there in Luger land ever clocked an original 123gr. German Military or Civilian 9mm Parabellum round (manufactured before 1946) at any velocity in excess of 1076 fps. from a standard 100 mm (4 Inch) barreled Luger?

A lot of folks (even some authors) claim that there was such a round developed for the new model (coil spring) Luger.

Well, let's see if anyone has ever found and shot one.

If such a round was ever produced, it hasn't been mentioned in any of the period German or English texts I have read to date.

Sieger