totenkopf holster
 

I am new to this forum and was asked by one of your members to post this. I am new to WWII arms and recently aquired a P38 and holster from a veteran who advised his brother-in-law brought it back from the war. The P38 is nice but it turns out the holster is acually a luger holster with a totenkopf or death's head stamped on the flap. I posted picks of the holster on another forum and was advised it was a luger holster used by the SS in the concentration camps. Here is a pic:

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/dh1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/dh1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>


This is closer:

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/cleardh.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/cleardh.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

The gentleman I aquired it from seems very genuine but knew nothing about the items themselves other then his brother-in-law brought them back. He received them from his estate a few years ago and was actually trying to turn it into the local police to be disposed of. I would appreciate any info or corrections to what I have posted about the holster...
Thanks...

Hi RJP,

Totenkopf holsters are *very* controversial. The markings inside and on the reverse need to be seen to determine what you have. Hope you will send more pix.

Tom A

I haven't been ablt to find any other markings at all. Here is a pic of the inside:

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/holsterpouch.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/holsterpouch.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Sorry for the blured pic. If you would like a pic of a specific are, please post where...
I did find some earlier post about these holsters and it does soud extremely controversial. I'll take some pics of the back and post...

More pics...

First one, Inside flap. Cannot tell if it is some sort of stamp or an impression from a gun or something that was pressed against it.

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/insideflap01.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/insideflap01.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Second is rear of holster..

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Is that some sort of repair work on the stitches in the back or what. Looks messy...One loop wider then the other..

Third pic is also of entire rear...
<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear2.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear2.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Sorry if pics are too big, I can resize if needed...

Tom, Could you be more specific about what you mean by very controversial?Like, they don't exist or are easily faked or what? Thanks, Jerry

You can automatically resize your photos by editing your posts using the pencil/paper icon on each post.

replace the UBB tags [img] and [/img] before and after your photos URL with [thumb] and [/thumb]and the photos will be resized for the message post and clicking on them will provide the full size image for those that want to see them.

There is ONE fly in this ointment. You must make the edits correctly the first time, or the automagic code conversion will gag on your mistake and modify the content of your posting...so be extremely careful... One way to prevent loss of data would be to copy the full text of the edit window into a word processing document so you can always copy it and paste it back over a messed up posting to recover...

I know this sounds confusing, but give it a try...

I have changed your last posting to let you see what the resulting changes look like...

Good Luck... and if you need help, just ask...

I changed the rest to thumbs, thanks...

Good Job...

and BTW, what Tom A was trying to say is that there is little or no documentation to authenticate the originality of the Deaths Head or Totenkopf marked items... There provenance is questionable. Perhaps your holster and holsters similar to it were marked by the soldiers that carried them in some discreet fashion... who knows if we will ever discover the truth. In the mean time, there are unscrupulous vendors who would create such items and tell you an "amazing story" to go with the markings on the items they are selling...

as always, CAVEAT EMPTOR (buyer beware) and ask for documentation that can be authenticated for items that seem too good to be true...

Could not have said it better myself, thanks John.
When one studies the old photographs of W.W.I through the Weimar period and early III Reich, one notices a plethora of Totenkopf insignias applied to a variety of things ranging from trucks to holsters. Likewise it was used as the logo for several freikorps units over a period of about 15 years.
For some reason, we American collectors want to make the "leap of faith" that anything marked with a totenkopf was automatically used by the SS and hence was connected with a consentration camp. Well, the KL marked luger/concentration camp nexus has now been effectively debunked by NAPCA members. I feel certain that the same will happen here in time.

Tom A.

Interesting subject,

I was shown a similar style holster, including the same mark (a bit sharper), including a KL (chamber, above the chamber date) marked Erfurt not too long ago.

What were the findings of the NAPCA members regarding the KL-marked lugers?

Tom, John, That's what I was trying to clarify. The SS connection or concentration camp link. The deaths head is found on many items like Tom says and I heve seen period photo's of it on holsters.

This one certainly seems authentic. Jerry Burney

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
<strong>What were the findings of the NAPCA members regarding the KL-marked lugers?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Gerben,

From a post I made on another forum...

Jim Cate and Nico Van Gijn, in the November "Automag", published a well-researched and -considered speculation that these pistols were assembled from leftover Erfurt parts, some of them rejects, by "Werkstatt (workshop) Klett", an old gunmaking family workshop within the Simson/BSW plant. These were assembled to augment new-manufactured stock and increase pistol production. The Kl (for Klett) chamber marking was included to conform to liability laws requiring rework arsenals to identify their work (thus VoNo and Anschutz [and I might also include Frankenschloss--DG]; this would protect Simson itself from product liability at need. The chamber date was added pursuant to the 1910, 1923, and 1932 Army marking regulations.

The published explanation is much more detailed and documented than this brief synopsis. The authors are continuing research on the topic, but are convinced of the truth of their thesis.

--Dwight

I have heard many warnings about possibly faked Nazi collectables. The gentleman I purchased this from was also a WWII vet born in 1919. He could not provide any info on how his brother-in-law obtained it. All he could say is that he thought his brother-in-law had some "papers" on it when he brought it back. Unknown what these papers would be possibly his CO's approval for war souveniers (sp?). He will look form them and let me but I don't think he will remember since he seemed to have a slight memory problem. I did see an add from Numrich gun parts for German proof stamps for sale for "restoration purposes" so anything is possible. I would like some advice on where to look to get some more info on this such as an organization or specific book, etc. Thanks for your interest in my recent find. Now, if I could just find a nice Luger to go with this....

How about posting some photos of the P-38. Many of us here have interest in that gun too, not to mention we like seeing original war trophies that haven't been messed with.

You might also visit our sister forum:

http://www.p38forum.com

Nice bunch of folks over there too...

Dwight,

Ah, that explains since the example I was shown was provided by one of these authors :)

Dwight,
How can I get a complete report on the finding
regarding the Kl marked Lugers? I no longer have
membership in the NAPCA.
Regards,
ARK

Here is the P38 I aquired with the luger holster.

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/P38nosn.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/P38nosn.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

ark,

Since AutoMag is not commonly available outside the membership of NAPCA, and is copyrighted, your best bet is to rejoin. The organizatin is certainly worthwhile, and Automag is a wealth of valuable information.

--Dwight

Hello Art,

Dwight has a very good point about the AutoMag copyright as well as the need for folks to join (or rejoin) if Tom Knox's lifelong venture has a chance of continuing alongside the Internet-based forum world.

I am away from my luger library, but this Saturday I will re-read my copy of that edition that dealt with KI lugers (not KL...) and will post my paraphrased summary; hopefully without infringing on the copyright issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

All,

let me second Dwight's excellent suggestion. To be involved in collecting Lugers and not be a NAPCA member is patently illogical. The real gray beards in this fraternity do not understand computers and are not really interested in learning about them.

What they DO know about is Lugers.

A NAPCA membership is a wise investment and should be considered as a prerequisite to being a Luger collector.

My zwei pfennigs. Flame away.

Tom A.

Since your P-38 is obviously a bring back in original condition I would recommend strongly that you visit our sister forum P38forum.com and get in touch with Orv Reichert... He maintains a database of P-38 historical information and would appreciate knowing the conditions and markings details about yours...

thanks,

Tom, You know I respect your opinion and this is not meant to disagree with it as I am sure you are right, BUT...Automag has some inherant problems that cannot be solved by subscribing.

If I were to subscribe today, how would I access past knowledge, of which there must be plenty? There is no way to benifit from past issues.

Each publication has provision for only the poorest of photo's which are practacally useless by today's standards.

Since this is a monthly publication the opportunity for immediate dialog, questions and such is delayed to such an extent as to make such an effort annoying.

Every correspondence must be put into hard copy and mailed to Automag for publication. When I was a member this could take up to three months to finally appear.

Don't get me wrong, I think this magazine is publishing somt thoughts and opinions that should be shared with all the Luger collectors in the World but I think the print and mail method is so archaic that it is doing a poor job of accomplishing it's purpose.

When one looks at this Forum or Jan Stills it is instantly clear that Automag, as important as it is, is so behind today's methods of instant communication and clarity that it could be compared to the horse and buggy. Why would one ride a horse accross country when he could fly on a modern jetliner?

Somehow this publication and it's human resources must enter into the computer era. If valuble discourse of Lugers and their collections are being discussed and hidden away in a mimiographed print publication then shouldn't a way be found to bring it to the widest audience possible?

I know the old adage, you can't teach an old dog new tricks but wouldn't it be possible to insert the Automag into say, this Forum verbatum to expose it to everyone?

The only fly in the ointment I have observed so far concerning this discussion is the control of the content of Automag and the subscription fee.

If the content were scanned and un alterable that would solve that portion. Contents of articles could be sent to the publisher and compiled into the regular format then published here.

The only other sticking point is the subscription fee. I don't know how many subscribers there are but I would emagine there are enough that the publisher does not want to give up this source of income. The fees could actually increase if an online subscription were to be developed. I am not computer savvy enough to know how to go about this but I am sure there are those out there who could and would to see this publication leap into the future. Could happen....Jerry Burney

all very possible Jerry, but it is my understanding that Jan Still offered to help bring the NAPCA out of the hard copy age and the seed fell upon the rock hard ground (heads) instead of the good soil... and achieved the same results as the Biblical parable.

I predict that the NAPCA will demise when the "greybeards" that Tom spoke of have passed on unless a new generation successfully transplants the organization into the 21st century pronto.

A suggestion on how they could finance it? Easy, take ALL the past issues of Automag and transcribe them onto a CD or DVD and sell it ONLINE, with annual updates.

They could also put the content of current AUTOMAG issues online and make it a paid subscription deal. (Just like visiting Ralph Shattuck's website.) The greybeards that want it on paper could have that option if they want it, but by opening it up to the internet market I am sure they would probably double or quadruple their revenue.

Just my $0.02

I know that Jan has a verbal agreement with NAPCA (Tom) on sharing information, as John stated, I am unsure if/how it will happen, but Jan has offered to scan in issues or share infromation.

On a side note, last summer I scanned in 10 years of newsletters for the Japanese Bonzai (sp) site and it took at least 1.25 hours per issue to scan in. So, big dollars in either free time or cost to make NAPCA go from hard copy to electronic.

Ed

12 issues per year? times 10 years = $150 hours or a month's work...

So just how much would an E-book (containing 10 years of AUTOMAG that is copy protected and can't be shared with others) be worth to a collector who doesn't have it and who wanted the info?

$39.95 plus shipping ??

Times how many members and NON-members @$49.95 would it take to justify the work and production?

Maybe a couple of hundred... 200 would be @$4000.00 USD...

Still think I am pipe dreaming? Maybe? Maybe Not?

How about E-books (similar to G. Henrotin's latest) that contain only 1 Year of info @ $10.00 each?

The numbers are looking better and better, eh?

and maybe just clouds in my coffee...

:)

Jerry,

A couple of things--

Tom Knox now (and I don't know for how long previously) accepts email for AutoMag submissions, thats how I got him the text for my Witness Mark study.

In the January issue which just arrived today, Tom mentions that they are beginning to transcribe AutoMag beginning with Issue #1 to post on the Members section of the website.

--Dwight

Depending upon memory and one's previous posts will run one afoul of the facts every time. I discovered I have misattributed this article, it is actually the work of Jim Cate and Nico VanGijn. I have corrected it in my previous post here, and elsewhere.

My apologies to Joe Wotka and Jim Cate for the error.

--Dwight