M1914 Navy Luger...
 

...now on GunBroker :

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=24702930

Noticed the word "refinished" or "restored" does not appear in the write-up...$ 4,200.00 seems awfully high...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...red_navy_1.jpg

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/restored_navy_2.jpg.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/restored_navy_2.jpg.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...red_navy_3.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

And only a 30% restocking fee if it is not rite. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

Hey Russ,

Yes...sales are final...but you do get the manufacturer's warranty...can't go wrong with that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Wonder if the folks at DWM are aware of this... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I posted as several LF members, in the past, have asked for help being able to know what a restored piece looks like.

To the credit of the person that did a nice job on this Navy restoration...he did not try to "add back" some "authentic" holster wear...by rubbing areas down with leather polishing rags...

If this Navy were priced, say $ 1500 - 1800 or so; I would be the first to buy this one...it is a nice restoration work, IMHO...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

30% restocking fee on a $4200 gun that has to be refinished or restored! Lets face it, chances it is mint untouched since 1916 are virtually nil. Wonder if he knows this is fraud and maybe criminal to boot! Almost tempted to buy and file the suit to get it for free plus damages! :)

A very nice restoration that is worth about $1500.

Tom A.

Hi Malcolm,

The listing seller does not state "Original, mint"...rather they just state "Mint"...

Many sellers sell on a policy called "careful omission"...aka "If you do not ask the right question(s), we do not need to disclose everything"...

If only becomes fraud if you ask the right questions and the replies (hopefully you get them in writing) are lies.

p.s. Wonder what sized rear toggle flange pin this 1917 Navy has...???

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Just an additional note, I am an attorney. Given that it is priced as an original mint condition Navy and not as a restored piece, knowingly selling one with such a misrepresentation can be considered fraud. Throw in use of wire (e.g. the Internet) and mail fraud (payment and shipping) on top of that...and you are looking at potentially very serious felony charges.

I know I am probably preaching to the choir, but since all of us on occasion do sell guns, we should all remember that being honest is a requirement of the law and not just desireable ethical behavior as collector or seller. Carrying out a $3000 fraud over the Internet is more than a bit different from an almost anonymous cash transaction at a gun show. It is a growing problem, with increasing prosecution, not to mention lawsuits. Ask Ebay how many of their fraudulent vendors are being prosecuted or sued. If you choose to engage in "a policy called 'careful omission'" you may end up in jail with permanent loss of firearm ownership rights. In other words, a bit of "puffing" - an optimistic statement of condition - to get an extra couple of hundred on the deal is one thing, but lying and misrepresentation for $3000 is quite another. One is clear fraud; the other is not. If the issue is pressed, the seller of this Luger may be in serious trouble. I can virtually assure you that any judge and jury will not be impressed by a claim of "he never asked." If the seller had it restored, he darn well better disclose or price it accordingly.

Hi Malcolm,

You make very sound and valid points.

Maybe, if you will not mind, I will send a polite e-mail to the seller on GunBroker...inviting them to log onto the Luger Forum and to read this discussion. They can then decide if they might want to add some more description to the auction add.

At least for the current members on the Luger Forum that have had a chance to read this discussion thread, they can decide if they want to over-pay for the restored piece. I certainly would not.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I think that I actually saw this piece in PA a couple of years ago at a gun show. The gun that I saw then looked just like this one and had the same year on it. It took a while, but after a very close inspection and the discrepancies between the looks of the bore and condition of the gun, it was determine to be a restored job (since I am not an expert, a good friend of mine with over 40 years of experience showed me the discrepancies). The owner indicated that it was not a restoration job, but a well kept gun. I may say that the restoration job is excellent! The owner did not allowed just anyone to handle the gun and when allowed, gloves had to be on.
Malcolm, How do you pursue someone engaged in mail fraud? It is my understanding that it is a very difficult and perhaps costly matter, am I right? I had a similar situation happening to me last year, I went to two attorneys and they declined the job. It was not the money, but the principal behind the act that got me furious about these creeps. They are con artist, people without decency and/or dignity polluting our society. WOW! I guess that I still pretty upset about it! Anyway...

Malcome well said.

I thought the "mint" wording was off too, but hadn't thought of it as you are. On e-bay, some of these guys use words to the effect of, I think it is original", It is very mint looking....

Words mean a lot, and if you rep it as it isn't, then you're a dummybutt and wrong.

Ed

Aside from the grips, which look a little too perfect to me, what gives everybody the impression that this is a restoration? I have seen some pretty darn good guns in some collections.

The 30% restocking fee was a total turn off for me too along with the buyer being responsible for the S&H. The guy can really make a lot of money just selling the gun and then accepting the return.

The guy really gives very little information about this Luger. He acts like he is doing everyone a favor selling it.
Big Norm

I am a newbie and may be speaking out of turn, but what strikes me is that this is a gun issued out in 1916 in the middle of a war that is not going particularily good. It should have seen some action in some capacity at some point. I don't see any holster wear or other signs of rust or wear on the gun. Even an otherwise mint condition Luger that is a "warhorse" should, in my opinion, show some holster wear or other signs of use. If it were a 1917, I would think OK, issued but never really used. A 1916, on the other hand, should have some signs of use. From what I have seen, even a mint condition "warhorse" Luger shows SOME holster wear.

To me, it is just too "minty." If we were talking military Colt Armys (wether SAA or 1911), it is too perfect, in my view, to have actually been a military issued gun. Given the state of the Imperial Navy and the war in 1916 and the most likely history of the gun since, I find it hard to accept that the gun is not refinished. I have one bought that is a partial restoration that is not in that good of shape, and I simply find it difficult to believe that this one is in that good of shape. Couple all that with a 30% restocking fee, well...if the seller were that confident in the providence of the gun, why have a 30% restocking fee?

All this may be unfair to the seller and the gun may be 100% legitimate. However, he has brought suspicion upon himself. As noted, he makes it sound like he is doing you favor to sell it and if you are not happy with it, pony up over $1000 just to look at it. If that does not indicate that the gun has problems, I am not sure what else can.

I guess when all is said and done, if you are selling something online like a Navy Luger in that good of shape, $4200 is likely a bargain. Offer it with a 3-day inspection and don't play games with a restocking fee. If you are not doing that, then any potential buyer is entitled to ask the all important question of "what gives?" In other words, stand by what you are offering if it is that good and don't play games.

Thank you Malcolm P for some great information on this matter

Hi Norm,

Here is what I saw...granted the photos do not allow much detailed looks...

1. No wear patterns at all.

2. The depth of the "1916" looked a little shallow on the chamber (i.e. as in...having been sanded down during a rework).

3. Straw looks like it was just done last week. Too new looking and too uniform in color. No trigger finger wear pattern showing on the right side of the trigger.

4. Straw is lacking what you guys called a couple of years back its coating of "sperm whale" oil or varnish...

5. The gun shows not the slightest evidence of rust or patina/oxidation under the blueing.

6. Color of the blueing looks a bit too grey and not typical DWM rust blue.

7. Gun looks way, way too clean...as if it was soaked in an solvent, ultra-sonic cleaning bath.

8. Grips screws look like they were done, last week as well.

9. Cannot tell for sure from the photos...but the size of the '1916' number fonts on the left side of the receiver appear to be the same size as on the left side of the front sight base...as I understand they should be of differing sizes...

Here are the things I would ask the seller to send me detailed, close-up photo of :

1. Shot showing the size of the rear toggle pin/flange.

2. Shot showing the stampings on the underside of the barrel to see if any "halos" are present.

3. Close-up shot of the C/M proofs and the "1916" stampings on the left side of the receiver.

4. Close up shot of the C/M proofs on the left side of the barrel, near the shoulder, and on the underside of the barrel, if present there too.

5. Close-up shot, top view, of the Navy rear sight pulled back...to show if the metal around the "200" number is "in the white" or not.

6. Close up of the serial number and C/M stamped on the bottom of the magazine...since the ad says the magazine matches the gun.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete,
I totally agree with you. After I posted my message, I noticed the shallowness of the date on the chamber. But if the restorer is good enough to do this good a job of the restoration then he would be good enough to know to not blue the white on the adjustible rear sight. All in all, I have to say that given the conditions of the sale, the starting price and that the pictures are inadequate, I would avoid this gun. I wouldn't like the situation even if I had the gun in my hands. Sometimes you just have to walk away. All this also goes for the artillery that this guy also has up for auction.

But I also have to admit that I have recently personally seen some guns that are of this period that look pretty good. Jerry Peters has a 1908 commercial navy and a 1917 artillery that look like they just came out of the box. Doug Smith has a 1902 "Fat Barrel" that he got from RIA that had me drooling for an hour after seeing it. I also have a couple of WW1 and WW2 Lugers that still have the "Sperm Whale" oil or varnish of them. I have a Swiss "Cross-in-Shield that has this finish still on the straw. But when I took the gun out in the day light, I noticed that the straps had some wear on them. Not a lot, but enough to justify more wear on the straws coating.

Malcolm,
don't worry about being a newbie. Your two cents is worth as much here as anybody else's. But in this unique instance, I would like to say that accepting a 1917 but not a 1916 because of the lack of wear deserves a small comment from me. In 1918, there were a number of model 1914's produced. They were produced to complete a 1916 contract and, therefore, they were given a 1916 chamber date. But with this one exception, your logic is good.
Big Norm

Hi Norm,

Hope your hunting season is going well !

You are right about some sock-drawer lugers coming out in the day light after many, many years.

I think some guns are showing up in the market after being carefully put away for the past 35-50 years...as the old time collectors are passing on their pieces to the next care-takers. Exciting time to be looking for lugers !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

All,

Good work, Gents. It appears that some of my preaching has taken hold, if I may seem so bold as to claim credit for enlightening anyone on this forum.

This gun is a very nicely done restoration which will fool 98.9% of the public. This is an example , a perfect example, of why one needs to get a 3 day return (without any BS restocking fee) and go through the thing as I have described previously here.

I surmise that following my recommended approach, this piece would be detected as a restoration in about 10 minutes.

Tom A.

Tom,
yes, absolutely, your checking on the oxidation of the bluing and having you at my side as I physically examined this gun would be the only way that I would consider buying it. Fortuately, I have a bunch of model 1914's so I am not going to worry about it. Now that 1906 2nd issue thats been on the auction block for a long time may be another story. Nice, but too high priced for me. But it would fill an empty slot for me.

I have two excellent 1917's w/matching mags and I am trying to negotiate a trade of one of them and some boot for a nice "Fat Barrel". But I have failed so far. The guy is a fanatic for very nice 1900's and 1906's (mostly Swiss). But he has an artillery but no navies and that is my negotiating position. God! I hate to give up a nice navy w/matching mag. Maybe he will take a nice 1900 AE with ideal stock and grips with boot instead. Ah, this negotiating can be nerve wrecking...but fun.

Pete,
I gave up on my plan to go grouse hunting this fall. The weather was too rainy and cloudy. Grouse just don't flush good in bad weather and I am not about to sit in my motorhome for 3-4 days waiting for the storms to pass over. But I am beginning to set myself up for rifle deer season. Lets see...scotch, beer, pretzels, my dog...
Big Norm

Hey Pete,

I am a newbie here also and I think you are giving them a bad wrap. You haven't even seen the gun in front of you! Only by these pictures and you automatically have a problem.
Also you didn't read the write up correctly on the guns either! The re-stocking fee and manufactures warranty is for NEW guns only(Not True... the restocking fee is not limited to NEW guns...edited by Admin) It says sales are final for NEW GUNS... (edited by Admin) Because it isn't from the same place I just looked at...(edited by Admin) I actually thought it was exceptionally photographed. Maybe the photographer is to blame because they took photos that were too nice and made the gun look nicer than it really is? (edited by Admin)

I think I will e-mail these folks and give them some support...Heck everybody is a newbie at first before they learn the ropes.

Oh by the way Edward Tinker(posted on 10/24/04) & Pete and some of the others are talking about 2 different Navy Lugers if you haven't caught on yet.

Just thought I would mention it. Yes more than 1 is out on the web by different people...Hmmm imagine that

Gunsndogs,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the Lugerforum...

Because this is your FIRST post, let me suggest strongly that you go to the Forum Decorum Document

http://www.lugerforum.com/ForumDecorum.html

and read it and also the Terms of Service agreement with the link at the bottom of that page...

These are found as the top document link on the General Information page...

you agreed to these when you registered to participate in this forum. Make sure you also read the part about agreeing to a $5000.00 fee for attempting to re-register after you have been banned... This is a PRIVATE forum open only to that portion of the internet public who will abide by the rules...

I have edited your posting... to remove your Terms of Service and Forum Decorum violations.

You are welcome to participate here as long as your participation is within the guidelines you have agreed to... if you can't do that, you will be banned from further participation...

We discuss things in a civilized manner on this website... and flames and personal attacks are absolutely forbidden...

Bernie, I think the whole gist of what everyone is talking about is that you need to be is careful when you buy or attempt to buy a Navy... They are faked more than just about any other luger, except for Goering's :D

:p

Ed

Thanks Ed :-)Sorry about my posts...

Are both the Navy Lugers fakes? Or just bad pictures? How can I tell for sure without seeing them in front of me? I would really hate to miss out on a nice find because of bad presentation & and wording.
Anyone here good at buying this way over the net who could give me some pointers?

gunsndogs,

Do a search on this site for pieces I have written on how to authenticate; most people who have read them think they are informative. And *never* believe you can determine authenticity from a photo. A fake, yes; but a real one has to be seen in person by a reasonably knowledgable individual.

Tom A.

Gunsndogs,

As you probably have already figured out, the Navy Lugers are fairly rare and in recent years seen a lot of fakes made. I do not pretend to be anything but a newbie myself, but the Luger looked "too good" and was not being sold with a 3-day inspection period for return. I will go ahead and share what I have learned just getting started myself.

I have been strongly encouraged not to deal with anyone offering wares online that does not agree to an inspection period. There are a lot of refinished or reworked Lugers floating around priced as 100% original. This includes Russian reworks and VOPO reworks that are anything but original. There are also a fair number of high quality restorations around. Finally, there are some very high quality "fake" Navy Lugers that have been manufactured in recent years. The only way to really tell what you have is to have a chance to examine the Luger hands-on or have good quality digital photos to examine.

Also, no matter how you look at it, a restocking fee of $1000 is not a good thing! I think a lot of board members will agree that that is a red flag from the start. That along with the lack of any holster wear raised a huge red flag with me. Others can correct me if I am wrong, but the Lugers that have seen use do have some holster wear on the side plate. That is what I have been told is one tell tale sign that the gun may have been refinished. For an 85 year old gun, this one looked too good.

If you are interested, I would contact the seller and ensure that you can indeed have a 3-day inspection without any restocking fee. Try to have someone knowlegable available to verify that it is what is purported to be.

Good luck and welcome to the board.

gunsndogs,
Please don't misinterpret my comments to Pete, Malcolm or TomA as down playing the integrety and knowlege of these gentlemen. Both Pete and TomA are valuable contributers to this forum. Malcolms posts were excellent common sense thoughts. All the comments made by these gentlemen should be taken as 'Luger Buying 101' and should be read by all newbies as to how to buy a Luger on the internet and even elsewhere.

My comments may have sounded a bit more negative than I wanted them to sound like. Its just that recently I have seen and handled a spat of unusually good Lugers in private collections. These Lugers don't see daylight very often and are very expensive because of their rarity and condition. So I have a momentary disposition to not rule out a Luger simply because it looks too minty. But minty guns are usually well known by collectors who wait in line for the seller to give even the slightest hint of selling. So a true minty Luger ususally doesn't last long enough to make it to an internet auction.

With that said, the comments made by the above mentioned gentlemen should be heeded as good lessons to be remembered. Minty Lugers on the internet should be viewed with some skeptism. The pictures of this particular navy were too glary and there wasn't enough of them to tell if the gun is a well done, but much cheaper, restored gun. The sellers description also left a lot to be desired.

The second navy Luger that you mentioned (I think that it was the 1906 navy) had much a better description and better pictures. The sellers write up was 95+% accurate. But this gun was previously mentioned and commented on in a different topic under Navy Lugers.
Big Norm

Received some emails from the seller.

They are convinced it is totally original and authentic. Said a few local collectors (i.e. not luger collectors, per se...) have seen the gun and also swear it is not refinished.

If I were personally interested...I would find out where the gun shop is located and possibly travel in person to see before I buy.

At a minimum; I would ask the seller to send more detailed photos, as I suggested in my earlier posting. And I would want them to clarify, in writing their inspection policy and if that 30% restock fee is in effect or not for this piece...

Here is the policy from the ad...sure sounds like they want to keep $ 1200 if you return the gun :

" **USED FIREARMS: 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD ONLY! ITEM(s) MUST BE RETURNED IN AN UNALTERED CONDITION FOR ANY CONSIDERATION FOR ANY TYPE OF REFUND (NO EXCEPTIONS)A 30% RESTOCKING FEE MAY BE APPLIED FOR ANY RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE "

One last thing I did not like about this piece (if original finish)...most 1916 or 1917 Navy pieces I have seen have some unique machining lines running in the recessed "ear" sections of the frame. This one does not appear to have these...leading me to my conclusion it was reworked.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen,

The gun is a very well done restoration. It has been blasted with glass beads to remove surface imperfections and then carefully rust blued/strawed.

It is a re-do, pure and simple.

Tom A.

A 78 year old Luger in factory new condition?
Even if you didn't know anything about Lugers it would seem to me that simple logic would question this Luger.
larry

Hey Larry... sure haven't heard from you in a while! For those that don't know Larry... he is one of the forum Old Timers... and a Navy Luger enthusiast... What have you been doing Larry? just lurkin?

John
You pegged me. I have learned so much from you guys and check the Navy Luger section every day.
Still hope to meet you one of these days. I would like to check out your 08 and compare it to mine.
Ours are only a few numbers apart. Keep up the good work.
Many thanks
larry

Great insight from everyone!

I have been doing my share of reading and making phone calls. I called a well known gunsmith in my area. I asked him if I could pick his brain about Navy Lugers.

Here are some pointers he gave me:

1) First never never clean your Luger grips with Kerosene or anything like that. These are wood grips not firewood he said (I hope it is o.k. to repeat that advice he told me)

If you want to clean them he suggest that you find a "qualified" & "reputable" gunsmith in your area and go see him about how to have it done.

2) To spot a fake, rework, etc from a photograph is not an accepted practice. The reason being that some people who produce fakes will make them look the way you want them to look authentic. Example: should have certain marks, wear patters, etc. So these people add them to the guns to make them appear more authentic and desirable to you the buyer. You should be very leery if the gun has what appears as "normal" wear patters...because most good fakes have had these marks or wear patterns.

3) Most Lugers were: either rust blue or dip blue depending on the year of the Luger. In late 1937 Mauser decided to stop rust bluing Lugers as a means to speed up production, as dip bluing was faster but less durable. In either case the finish needs to be the original finish appropriate for the period.

So to tell a fake you can look inside the interior frame of the gun. Inside surfaces
of a rust blued piece are in the white and the inside surfaces of a salt blued piece are blued. This is also one way to tell if a Navy Luger has been reblued or not. (This only works if the firearm was originally done by these methods & within the time frame)

O.k. I have copied the information from the posting of the Navy Luger:

They do offer a 3 day inspection for used firearms (see below).

RARE FIND! Mint Condition 1916 Dated Navy All matching Numbers Including Magazine.

**NOTE: BUYER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE, AND TAX.
(SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE)

**USED FIREARMS:
3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD ONLY!
ITEM(s) MUST BE RETURNED IN AN
UNALTERED CONDITION
FOR ANY CONSIDERATION FOR ANY TYPE OF REFUND (NO EXCEPTIONS)
A 30% RESTOCKING FEE MAY BE
APPLIED FOR ANY RETURNS.
ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE

**NEW FIREARMS:
ALL SALES FINAL WITH MANUFACTURES WARRANTY ONLY.
WE WILL APPLY A 30% RESTOCKING FEE FOR ALL RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE

(BTW: Most mail order companies these days charge you S&H. Depending on the carrier, insurance may or may not be mandatory. Restocking fees too for returned items)

Gun Broker isn't just for the home seller anymore. Tons of companies list inventory for sale on these auction sites. They are getting more money & people viewing them,
then they would at gun shows and at local auctions.

This is only my opinion.
I don't like to see people getting a bad rap when they cannot be heard & defend themselves.

I have no particular talent. I am merely inquisitive. -Albert Einstein

Bernie,

I did send the Gun Broker seller an invite to the Luger Forum. Suspect they did log on and read the discussion about their pistol.

This was obvious from one of their replies to me, in off-forum private emails, about the discussion.

But I think they decided not to "join" the on-line discussion about this Navy.

I was hoping they would take the list of additional photos I suggested a prospective buyer should ask for in my previous posting and take the photos and update their auction ad to "convince" buyers and other looky-lou's that their Navy is an original, factory finish. They did not take the "hint"...

p.s. A bunch of expert refinishers that are passing off their reworks as origial have certainly mastered the art of redoing a rust blue job while leaving the original "in-the-white" interior of the gun's frame as such. The presence of an "in-the-white" frame interior, by itself, cannot be the only factor one uses to determine an original piece from a rework.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

All,
"The presence of an "in-the-white" frame interior, by itself, cannot be the only factor one uses to determine an original piece from a rework."

Lord were it so.....
Guys, do your flipping homework or pay *BIG* tuition bills at Luger U.

Tom A.

I like the part about kerosene.

Another "in-the-white" frame interior on what appears, to me, a restoration :

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06commnav1.htm

Pete,
Another PIA, if you have to ask, you can't afford it Luger. I wonder if they ever sell anything? Some of their stuff has been on GB for a year or more.

Ron

I made the mistake of purchasing a 1914 Artillery that looked very nice in the pictures. I learned a very expensive lesson from these people. It would be a cold day in Hell before I would consider any of their items again.
Craig

Gents,

Note the size of the font for the number 3 under the barrel. Likewise note the strength, dare I say blatentness of the straw?

Come on guys, give an old soldier a break. $12K?

The only example in the English Language when two positives equal a negative: "Yeah, right!"

Tom A.

Not much left of the BUG proofs or the C/M proof or the calibre stamping on the barrel...serial number fonts look odd, too...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/navy_proof.jpg