Mauser 42 Kriegsmarine Marked Luger
 

I just picked up a very nice Kriegsmarine pistol which has a marking that I can't identify. The pistol is a Mauser 42 P.08 dated 1939 with the following markings:
S/N 5666
Right Frame WaA E/655 repeated twice followed by a standard Heer test proof
Rear Grip Strap N.3894
Front Grip Strap S XIX
Magazine: FXO WaA E/37 - there are two mags both marked the same. The base of the mag is an unusual black bakelite. I've never seen one like this before.
It came in a 1939 dated holster marked on the back Karl Akva, Bad Kreuznach, WaA266 and the Kriegsmarine E/M.
Does anyone know what the S XIX on the front gripstrap might mean?
Here are some pictures - not great as I had to use my scanner.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navywhole.JPG

Right Frame
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navyrightframe.JPG

Left frame
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyLeftframe.JPG

Top markings
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyTop.JPG

I don't think that the magazine is correct for the gun - both mags are identical but have no serial numbers
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navymagbottom.JPG

Finally, these are the markings on the back of the holster - the real colour is dark brown.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyHolster.JPG

Hello John,

PICS of those front & backstrap would be appreciated. FXO E/37 mags are associated with the BYF ( 41 & 42 dated ) Mausers. Yours should have the 122 type series of mag ( if I'm not mistaken ) 1939 42 are quite scrace in my area

kidvett

I figured out how to scan the grip strap markings so here they are:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/FrontGripStrap.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BackGripStrap.JPG

John,

I'm no expert in NAVY's but it would indicate that your Mauser was issued to a NORTH SEA unit. U-BOATS???

Dont forget to check your Private Messages...

kidvett

Derek Seltzer very kindly asked some people about the S XIX marking and James Cate came back with the suggestion that this may be an unofficial mark relating to a ship. I'd love it to be a sub but I think that would be a U marking and not an S. In any event, given the efforts of my Dad and others in the Royal Navy, it is highly unlikely that a U Boat issued 1939 Luger would not be at the bottom of the Atlantic. I'm inclined to believe that it is a ship marking and my inclination is that, if so, it may refer to a Schnellboot or S Boat as these operated extensively in the North See.
Another suggestion from Bob Burden was that it could be an SD Police marking as districts in Dusseldorf were numbered Roman style.

Hello John, nice Luger!! Kidvette was absolutely correct regarding the fxo magazines. The magazine should a blue folded metal type with an aluminum bottom and not having a center fastening pin. The acceptance mark on the bottom should be a stick eagle-over-63 (SE/63) or a stick eagle-over-655 (SE/655). Also the serial number should contain a script letter. This appears only in one place, on the frame, below the barrel just under the numbers.

If this letter is between "P" and "W" the magazine markings should not be SE/655

Thanks Frank. There is a letter below the serial number on the front. I'm not good at reading script but I looked up a chart and it seems to be an L.

Hi again John! "L" was not one of your choices!! The 1939, Code 42 Lugers began life in the late "P" alpha (P-Block) and stopped in the late "Z" alpha (Z-Block). Could it be an "R", lower case, of course? All Military Mauser Luger suffixes are lower case!

Hi Frank - Thanks for your perseverance. I looked again and it's a T.

John, your magazine should have a SE/63 for an acceptance mark. Now comes the fun!! The 1937, Code S/42 was also made in the T-Block. To differentiate, the "SE/63" comes in 3 sizes. The small size is for the 1937 and the medium and large size is for the 1939. Unless one is familiar with these differences, it is difficult to immediately tell by inspection. I'll get some magazines out and make some measurements!

John & Frank, I have an excellent picture showing a comparasion of the three SE63 marks, but cannot access the Forum picture upload page. When it is again available, I will post it.

Hugh, thanks, I'll be waiting patiently. Or at least as patiently as I can wait!!!!

JohnF/Frank,
- While you're waiting, you may want to visit the "other" forum @www.armscenter.com. Running a thread by "Bohemian" under the "Axis Pistols 1933-1945" titled "CZ-27 marked S XIX STAR". Hearing undocumented suggestions this S XIX is Siamese. Seems a stretch to me; but, Never say never!!!
JohnF,
- Would you verify and confirm this P.08's S/N letter block as "t" again? Trust you're using the Tech Info sheets or equivalent as a cross-reference. Picture of the right side is too grainy for me to read the Slide's acceptance stamps <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> . Are they sE/63, sE/655, sE/swastika or sE/655, s/E655, sE/swastika??? Reason: "t" block would be the earliest example I've run across for a sE/655, sE/655,sE/s acceptance sequence. This sequence started at the "w" block and on for the 1939-42 code gun from data I have. Want to verify whether this is a transition example of WaA Inspectors given normal mfg. progress. The "x" and the "z" suffix mark can sometimes look like a "t" when wear affects the marking. Don't ya just love ID'g Luger suffix letters. Takes a strong glass..magnifier or sometimes otherwise. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
- GENERAL rule of thumb is the mag acceptance will be the same as the first(left most) slide acceptance stamp. Agree with all said to date about fxo mag's coming on too late and sE/63's contemporary to the "t" block(s).
- I have not seen this S XIX marking before. I too have no source of documentation either. However, I do observe in Buxton-Vol.3 The P.38 Pistol-Distribution 1945-1990... on Pgs. 41-44 a series of front grip strap markings similar (S.K.I thru S.K.XXV) in form. These are attributed to the British Zone's West German Police from approx. 1951-1956. Your "S" boat hypothesis may be equally valid.
TIA,
Inspector WR <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

The acceptance stamps on the right side are s/E655 s/E655 s/E/s. I've taken yet another look at the suffix and I'm still lousy at reading script. However, I have finally managed to convince my digital camera to take a half decent photo of the suffix and I'll post it as soon as the upload feature returns. Looking at it again it's probably a Z - which would make more sense based on what's been said.

Here's the photo of the suffix. It is a Z isn't it?
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/42framesuffix.JPG

John, Yup, it's a "Z"!! There is absolutely no doubt. One gets use to looking at these little devils and it gets easier!! Trust me. The only ones that are tough for me are the "g" and "q".

Your magazine should be an SE/655 acceptance mark!

The original issue magazine should have been stamped with the serial number and a "Z", an SE/655 and a N3894. Without the N3894 stamp, the magazine would only be an approximation!!

Hope you get Lucky!! :)

John F.
* Yep. "z" block which fits & adds to the data.
* A little trivia: </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">(1) 1939, "42" code, #5080z is listed as Kriegsmarine #N3960 bearing sE/63, sE/63, sE/S. Came w/two, Type 2(folded S/Mtl, blue, Al. base) mags bearing sE/63.
  (2) 1939, "42" code, #5421z is listed as a standard Army bearing sE/655, sE/655, sE/S. Came w/ two, Type 2(folded S/Mtl, blue, Al. base) mags bearing sE/655.
  (3) 1940, "42" code, #5714z is listed as a standard Army bearing sE/655, sE/655, sE/S. Came w/two, matching, Type 2(folded S/Mtl, blue, Al. base) mags bearing sE/655.
  (4) Also, have record of Type 2 mag. only, S/N 3121z bearing KMI #N3849 and sE/655 acceptance.
  (5) Finally, have record of Type 2 mag. only, S/N 5074z bearing KMI #N3968 and sE/655.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">* Looks like your S/N 5666z bearing KMI #N3894 fit right into the pattern. As you probably know, the KMI #'s were not sequential to the S/N of the article to which they were applied.
* Please note this example was one of the last code "42"'s made in 1939. Late December, I'd guess, if it progressed normally during its build. Jan Still's, in his book Third Reich Lugers", estimates 8250z to be the end of the 1939-42's. This piece would be contemporary with the transition period to 1940-42 marked P.08's.
* Looks like the proper matching mag was a Type 2, sE/655 accepted mag with KMI markings as well.
Enjoy, <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
Bob

Here is the picture of the three sizes of SE 63 acceptance stamps on mag bottoms. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SE63mags.jpg

Tanks Hugh!! A pitcher is wurth a hunnert wurds!! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

Many thanks Hugh. That makes things much clearer.

That was great Hugh, I copied your picture and plan on using it in the FAQ.

Any other like items that are easy for some of you whiz bang guys to show us? :D

Ed, the small "63" is suitable for late 1936, 1937 and some 1938 and some 1939 S/42 Lugers. The medium and large "63" is proper for 1939 Code 42 Lugers, probably up to about the mid W-Block.

The SE/83 is proper for the rest of the 1938 and 1939 S/42 Lugers, but I am unsure exactly where the cross overs are!

According to the people in Germany the 1939-42 K-Marine Lugers were assembled in the
y and z blocks with just a very few in the - r - and later suffix blocks. Your serial number and property number fit in the area of the other - z - block K-Marine pistols. I would think a SE-655 magazine would be correct. One thought on searching for acceptance marks on 1939-42 pistols might be this. If the pistol is prior to the mid - w - block, chances are its a SE-63 SE-63 with a larger than normal 63's under the stick eagle's. 1939-42 Lugers had a neat acceptance mark transition. Early - w - block pistols were SE-63 SE-63 (large 63's) Mid - w - was SE-63 SE-655 and late - w - was SE-655 SE-655. After the - w - block the SE-655 seemed to be normal for the pistol But, not all inclusive as far as magazine acceptance is concerned. Do you plan to keep this Navy Luger. I agree with the collector who said the fxo magazines came much later than your pistol, the rolled tin blue body with a SE-655 acceptance mark would be more correct. Just for the thought. There are no recorded 122 code magazines reported before the ns block of the 1940-42 pistols.
Don