Chamber proofs on a 1916 navy
 

Any help from forum members on what country these proofs are. Thanks Mike Morris

Mike sent me this photo to post for him...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...que_proofs.jpg

Hello Mike,

I think a Belgian collector is behind this web site...Alain D.

http://www.littlegun.be/

You might email him your photos to see if he might confirm the Belgium-origins...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Mike has posted a couple more pictures of his mystery Navy Luger on his website and asked me to copy them here in this thread. I have cropped his pictures a bit to zero in on the markings.

(I wonder if it might be Siamese?)

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mber_proof.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...de_marking.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...le_marking.jpg

Ron,

I'm not coming up with a reference for the mark, but I did run into a comment (Walter, 1991) that Siamese Lugers are mostly 4", some LP-08, all of them 1936 Mausers with C/U proofs.

--Dwight

All,

I have seen, disassembled and gone over this gun thoroughly.

My *guess* and it is only a guess, as I can find nothing to back it up, is that this proof is a "secondary" proof, applied by some government entity for foreign manufactured weapons.

As Belgium was a significant colonial power during the latter part of the 19th and first part of the 20th Century, it is not beyond a reasonable speculation that this gun was acquired by Belgian forces in a foreign area of operations

(Africa, where Belgium had the Congo, and Germany had a great deal of West Africa -Remember "Last Voyage of the African Queen" with Bogey and Kate?)

and given a secondary proof by a colonial armory.

Granted, this is pure speculation, however I will ask the group for a better theory.

Cheers,
Tom A.

Dwight,
I can't find the mark either. It is just something about the mark on the left side of the Luger that struck me as looking similar to a Siamese character. Could be just an underlined "c". Probably way off base, but it seemed worth mentioning.

From the G. Wirnsberger book, "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" on page 128 :

Sorry...could not find anything on the "c/underline" mark...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/belgian_proof.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

BINGO! Good going Pete.

Only for adding that this in a civilian Belgian Proof House mark,so the mark was stamped when the gun was imported in the Belgian Country for commercial purpose.

Again,it's an L for Liege.

Excellent work Pete!

I had a look at the Belgian proof marks I knew of and they did not fit the standard ELG Belgian proofs I had seen before (which now is logical, since they appearantly used a different proof for non-belgian weapons). And since Belgium has a healthy fire-arms industry, not a lot of imports into Belgium are seen.

This means that Mike's Navy indeed spent some time in Belgium, again not illogical since half of Germany camped in their backyards during WW1 and they were forced to leave tons of material behind. These ex-WW1 guns ended up on local European markets, and a number of them were even offered for sale to the Dutch goverment. The Dutch homeguard and some police forces used some of these WW1 capture pieces.

Pete: Got an ISBN of that book?

I have a photo of a group of Belgian soldiers sporting Kratchen, EK's and other German uniform elements and holding P08's and P04 variations. I can't post the photo here but will forward it to someone to post.

George, I can post it for you, but if you can send it (e-mail it), you should be able to post it here?

Ed

I want to thank all you guys for taking the time to research my navy proof mark. Pete, you did a great job !! My thanks to you ! A qustion still remaing though is that funny looking stamp on the lh frame behind the 24. That's the one Ron said it looks like a Siamese proofs. Could it be like a previous post said, a police proof of some country ? Again, many thanks guys.......Mike
PS..I'm working on the list of serial numbers that that I have some history on, ie. purchase affidavits from vetrans, descriptions of, import papers, or research material. I will have to copy it to microsoft word and send it to my e-mail folder to be forwarded to interested members. It's too long to post to the forum. I should have it ready by the end of the week. Example is a copy of the US test trials of the Borchardt, Borchardt serial #'s 633 and 1019. 1019 had under the barrell " For Ely cartidge only ", and capture papers which are free to the owners of the appropiate guns, etc., etc. Hoping all this will help the Forum community.

Hello Gerben,

The ISBN number is : 0-89149-006-X

And here is a book seller that has some in stock :

http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cg...ml?id=pkNyQLP5

Just add the author's name into the "search" window...

Hello Mike,

Glad I could be of help...just fortunate enough to have picked up this little book...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ed, I emailed you the photo.

Admin and here it is:
Belgians with German Battlefield Loot
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/belgians.jpg

John.if you will send me your email address again so you can assist me in uploading a pic. I have a 06 Siamiese with the Siamiese Gouv. mark, it looks very similar to the mark in question.

Leo

George, Now i see where I can add the picture, so added it here and started a new thread. Maybe others would like to post pictures like it?

:)

Mike, I believe that you will find that the reason for the belgian proofs on the barrel and receiver of the Luger is ,that the gun was submited by the mfgr.(DWM) for test fireing in a Belgian weapons inspectors vacility to make sure that the weapon did in fact meet the specifications of the manufacturers suggested amunition load. This was common practice for the German, English, French, and Italian mfgrs.to send weapons for testing, as Belgium was recognized as the fore most European testing house. Another common stamp found on firearms to indicate the same process is the flaming ball with the elg initials inside of it.

Hi,

I doubt that DWM bothered to send a luger to be tested in Belgium during WW1. DWM even had a large interest (partial ownership) in Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium and expected to continue producing arms at the FN plant after the Germans invaded Belgium in 1914.

The Belgians downright refused to produce for Germany and DWM shipped out the FN production machinery to Germany so production (mainly of the K98, which FN made in license) would continue there. FN was reduced to a material repair shop (mainly bikes and vehicles) until their machinery were returned in 1919.

DWM were quite crossed that they had to hand over 'their' machinery to the allies in 1919, since they had virtually complete ownership of these machines because of their considerate financial interest in FN. They also lost their FN shares as a result of the Versailles treaty, along with ownership of several other foreign companies, like a French ballbearing factory they had set up there.

Moveover, DWM's test equipment was rated as the best possible in those days and DWM produced and sold production and testing equipment to several countries. DWM did not need, in any way, the assistance of other countries for testing.

Evan Duke, were this a 1906 type Navy or a prototype there could be some very thin chance of your idea being correct but it is a 1916 dated Navy. In that year relationships between the Germans and Belgians were strained at best as German troops had overrun almost all of Belgium in 1914 and were still in occupation. I seriously doubt that the Germans were asking the Belgians to proof their weapons for them.

The subject pistol, like so many we see with British proofs, was in all likelihood a war trophy subsequently proofed by the Belgians as may have been required by their laws. I believe that Navy Matrosen units were heavily involved along the channel coast in Belgium.

George,

You are correct. The main Belgian ports were probably stuffed with German vessals that were neatly impounded after the Germans surrendered.

About DWM's testing abilities:
Here is a very rare picture of a K98 being measured at DWM (somewhere between the wars).

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/measuringk98dwm1939.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/measuringk98dwm1939.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Hello Ron,

Here is a jpeg of some siamese markings I picked up on the Horst-Held web site...

Thought it might help your line of thinking on the other markings...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...semarkings.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John S and Pete,
Another of the Flaming Bomb Proofs that keep coming out of the woodwork !
Pete, Thanks for the research !
John S, Do you think that there is a place for this with the others ?
They keep showing up on Lugers from all over, will this qualify them as an item worthy of entry in the proof marks section ?
ViggoG

I agree Viggo. This one belongs in the tech info section too.