Looking at purchasing a luger.
 

I'm thinking about purchasing a luger from an acquaintance, but am not sure what to offer to pay for it. I'm hoping that someone can help me place an accurate value on it by reviewing the information I do have on it, which I compiled using information contained within this website.
The information I have collected on it is as follows: It is a 1939 blued S/42 new-model luger (serial no. 5084) 9-mm with a barrel length of 4". It has no grip safety, but does have a stock lug; the toggle knobs are squared and knurled and the toggle's inscription is "s/42"; the chamber has the year "1939" stamped on it but I could not locate any other inscriptions on it; the rears sights are a fixed-v; the front sight is a wind-adjustable blade with the rear surface horizontally grooved; it has checkered wooden Walnut grips, without a border or an insignia, but with matching numbers stamped on the insides ("84"); the magazine bottom plug is made from aluminum and is stamped with the serial number, a cursive "u", and an eagle with a "63" below it. It has a hold-open device and "gesichert" is written under the safety lever, which is safe in the rear position. All parts, including the magazine, have matching numbers on them ("84"), and it is in very-good, to excellent, condition. There is a marking on the right side of the barrel which is an eagle-looking stamp like Proof #47's third picture. There is also a marking on the left side of the barrel which is a slightly different eagle with the number "63" stamped just beneath it - this marking is probably only 1/8th of an inch tall and looks similar to Proof #46's first example. The serial number is again stamped at the base of the barrel on the underside, and there is also a marking of "8/81" directly underneath the serial number (with the slash in the marking being much smaller than the digits). Markings on the right side of the receiver, just behind the barrel, include 2 eagles with "63" under each of them (that are about 1/4" tall) and an eagle above something that we think may be a swastika symbol. There are also a number of other markings: there is a cursive "u" on the main frame, forward of the trigger guard, just beneath the base of the barrel; there are stamps that look similar to the letter "v" on 2 other separate places of the frame; there is an upside-down letter "g" on the left edge of the extractor; on the inside of a small plate (part #039 on the Parts & Disassembly breakdown illustration) there is a number "51" and a letter "R"; and finally, on the toggle there is a letter "C" and a number "7" that can not be seen until the firearm is taken apart. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! I'd really like to have this piece for my collection! Thank you!

Based on the info and an excellent description, and without photos, my humble opinion would put this gun in the $900-1200 area, if it hasn't been reblued. The pros will be in later though. Welcome to the forum.

Rk

No expert on these things, but this sounds like a standard military pistol.

The letter 'U' on the frame is an important part of the serial number and the 8,81 is the land diameter in mm.

The first issue in determining value, (given the information you provided), is the percentage completeness of the finish. From your description it sounds high, maybe 95% or so, could you evaluate it in those terms ?

Secondly, is the finish the original one ! This is the major factor ?

Hope this helps a little, and posting a couple of pictures here would help the experts on the board give you some great advice.

Hi Ralph! Something doesn't add up on your pistol. It makes a huge difference in the value of the Luger. If the chamber date is 1939, there were two variations made that year, a toggle mark of "S/42" and "42", also known as Code 42. The S/42 had suffix letters (found below the number on the front of the frame) of n,o,p,q&r. The Code 42 had suffix letters of p through z. If the frame suffix letter is indeed a "u" and the toggle is marked S/42, I strongly suggest the toggle link has been replaced. That being the case, the value of the Luger is more like $500, if it in good condition. If you can add more information, please do! [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW an S/42 is usually worth more than a Code 42 in equivalent collectors condition because of the lesser quantity made.

As all have said, the suffix makes a big difference, although difficult, please provide a picture of it. Some of the suffixes are hard to judge, could it be a N? Or something else? Take a look at http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix.html and http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix2.html

and compare yours against these suffixes.

Thanks to everyone for their input! This has become an interesting learning experience for me. I am going to try to get some assistance in obtaining photographs of the piece I am contemplating purchasing, but that may take me a little longer as I don't have all the computer equipment it takes to do this. In the meanwhile, I have a couple more questions: Is there a foolproof way to tell whether the firearm has been re-blued or not? I have asked 3 people, two of whom have a good bit of experience in determining gun value and the other an enthusiast and collector, and only 1 person thought it had been reblued....so, I don't know what to think. The bluing is in really good shape, estimated at 95% or better, and has wear only in the places where wear is expected to be seen. Also, regarding the toggle possibly being a replaced piece - it does have the last two digits of the serial number on it ("84"). What is the likelihood that a part with the same number could have been taken from another gun? The letter "u", which thanks to y'all I now know is an important part of the serial number, is most certainly the letter "u". It looks just like the lower-case cursive "u" that is shown on the Suffix1 page within this website. I'm hoping this response will encourage more replies, but I don't know if this added information may be of much assistance in determining value. I'll try to get those pictures uploaded as soon as possible. Again, thank you to everyone who took the time to post a response! <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Hi Again Ralph, beginning with the G-Date Lugers in 1935 and ending with the 1939 S/42 production, there were 400,000 Lugers produced with S/42 toggles that are similar. I have discounted the K-Dates because of their somewhat unique markings. The number "84" would appear on 1 in every 100, so somewhere around 4000, S/42 "84" toggles were manufactured. The chances of finding one is certainly NOT astronomical. Since I never say never, well almost never, the chances that the pistol has had a toggle transplant is very large, IMHO

If you are looking for a collectable Luger, I would run away! If you are looking for a shooter and can buy it at a reasonable price, say $400 to $500, then it's your call.

Good Luck!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[quote]Frank said ". I have discounted the K-Dates because of their somewhat unique markings." <hr></blockquote>
They (K Dates) are kinda cool huh Frank? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Thor, Yep and we should know. It's like having twins!!!

<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Well, I don't know exactly what I'm doing, but hopefully these photographs will upload alright.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS4210.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS429.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS427.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS426.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS424.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS423.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS421.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS422.jpeg.JPG

I'm looking forward to reading any comments these pictures may bring. I'm also hoping they are good enough pictures that what I want to be seen can be seen. Again, thank you!

OK, here goes.
This is a totally re-blued pistol. If you take a look at the frame beneath the rear toggle link, the frame portion that ceases the backward progression of the toggle assembly, there is no mark or impression that would show that the pistol has been fired. So...the pistol has not been fired.

Before we proceed any further, are you a person who is searching for ways to make your Luger appear more authentic?
Be aware that the pistol has now been documented by posting and the serial numbers have been recorded.

I would say the grips are replacement.
The safety has not been used, as there is no wear trail from safe to fire.
The cannon has not worn any surface forward of the trigger plate.
Grip screws have been replaced or reblued.

The pistol is worth $500 as a shooter.

Sorry deleted your other posting and tried to add them all to the other, exceeded the amount, here are the other two pictures:

Ed
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS425.jpeg.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RLHS428.jpeg.JPG

Once again I find myself at odds with Wes. I must say this is as fine an example of this type of pistol as I have ever seen. While what Wes says is certainly true, it is entirely possible that this pistol is original. The photo's are excellent and if this pistol has been reblued I want the name of the fellow who did it. The numbers are crisp and the colorings of the different metals are what they should be. This is not your average re blue job and a re blue is generally applied because the pistol has had the original finish worn off. This pistol has seen little or no use. The grips do not look like replacements to me. The wood to metal fit is too good for repro grips. I would like to know if the grips have matching numbers inside them. I have a pistol of this year in just about the same shape. I have seen a number of these that looked like they just came out of the factory.The matching magazine means nothing here but it dosen't hurt. Something is more right with this than wrong. Jerry Burney

Okay, time to be ambivalent here.

Wes and Jerry have good points.

The bluing appears to be too good to be true, and as Wes stated, I don't like the lack of wear on the rear, nor on the safety area. Yet, if a re-blue, they did a really outstanding job, as the numbers are very sharp and clear!

I really believe this is one of those guns you have to have in front of you, torn down to decide if it is a re-blue or a pristine type of Luger. Also, as Frank stated, the u suffix doesn't make sense?


A couple of weeks ago, I looked at an amazing collection of guns, learned so much my head hurt for a week [img]smile.gif[/img] and I thought I saw a couple of re-blues, but out of 40 different guns, only one was truly a re-blue. There are some righteous pristine guns out there!

I would find it very useful if members of the forum could post some suggested inspections to determine if this pistol is original. It certainly doesn't look like the usual dip or reblue guns you see around.

I would also like to suggest that regardless of the condition of the finish this gun is worth well in excess of $500 on the current market. As a case in point;

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=6161986

now if anyone would like to tell me that the gun pictured in this thread is worth the same as the auctioned pistol referenced by the link, I have some great straight trades I'd like to make with them.
[img]smile.gif[/img]

I will be the first to admit that an S/42 is not my main interest (made after 1918 etc.) but just from a general Luger observation standpoint, I tend to side with lugerholsterrepair. It looks like a very pristine original Luger and an excellent find. The left grip exhibits a bit more figure that you usually encounter, but not unheard of. I would want to remove the grips and verify they are original and matching.

The wear pattern is consistent with a little used Luger, probably one issued to a "desk jocky" and only carried for ceremonies.

The gun has been fired, but very little. Possibly only test fired. On a "fresh" Luger there are only two points of toggle/frame contact (see arrows in photo). It is only after extensive firing when these points have been peened down that a broader "toggle slap" wear pattern will show up.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/STU1.jpg

There is light holster wear on the forward frame rail, but once again very little, indicating not much actual holster time.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/STU2.jpg

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, and it for sure won't be the last, but from a finish standpoint I think it probably is an honest piece. As far as the "u" suffix being incorrect, I leave that to the experts.

Gentlemen,

I have just checked in after a long but enjoyable weekend and after reading everyone's comments I have some fat to throw in the fire and solicit opinions from you all...

None of you has mentioned the one item that I feel casts doubt on the originality of the finish.

Please check the photo enlargement I have posted of the magazine well opening and then comment on the existence of what appears to be a harsh file mark (most dramatic directly under the 63 on the magazine) and most dominant on the bottom of the stock lug... This appears to be under the current finish and to me it is completely out of place on a pistol produced in 1939 that exhibits such fine machining detail everywhere else...

Without a fine high-intesity light examination, and working strictly from the photographs I would have doubts that this pistol is sporting it's original finish...

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/5084amagbottom.jpg

That said, I think it is a fine looking Luger pistol and worth considerably more than the $500 mark in my opinion...

Just my http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/2cents.jpg

John,
I admit that it is a bit disturbing, and I did notice them too. It looks to me more like machining "chatter" marks than file marks. I have seen similar marks on other Lugers, but usually on the bottom of the recoil lug. It very well may be a refinish, but if it is, it is a dandy.

Mayberryusa:

If you have access to the Luger, take it apart and look at the trigger lever and the coupling link(connects toggle with recoil spring). Both should be in the "white". Most rebluers and and some restorers miss this and they will be blued if it has been redone. My $.02 for $500.00 buy it!

Regards

Ken D

Hello Ralph !

Belated welcome to our Forum...

I am just a beginner myself, only having the luger bug for ~ 10 months.

One thing that I look for in an old luger is that build-up of "brownish" gunk that I think is years of oxidized, old gun oil and lubricants. If a gun is restored/refinished; there is usally a degreasing and/or steam cleaning or ultra-sonic cleaning step to remove all of this so the surface will be ready for the refinish.

If you have a chance to see this gun, apart, you might look for this.

I have included a photo of my old 1920 DWM Commerical police rework, that shows this "gunk".

If the price is in the $ 400-600 range, (based on CA-State pricing) I would not hesitate to buy this luger; refinished or not...as long as it is in good working, mechanical order.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Police7a.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[quote] ... it has checkered wooden Walnut grips, without a border or an insignia, but with matching numbers stamped on the insides ("84"); ...<hr></blockquote>

The reason that I say that the grips are replacement is the mismatch of wear of the grips compared to the lack of wear on the metal finish.

Take a good look at the trail from safe to fire.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/paste.bmp

Interesting study. I've scrutinized these photos but as Edward said, this gun has to be inspected in person to find defects, if any. If refinished, it is really a fabulous restoration.

In particular, I studied the raised border of the rear frame around the safety to see if the metal is polished (wrong) or if the machine marks are horizontal, but I just can't tell from the photos.

Since there is a visible scratch on the frame's backstrap, and since there is a little wear on the right side of the frame (as Ron Wood noted) I would expect at least a tiny bit of wear on the sideframe and the forward left raised area of the receiver, but there is none. The finish is perfect.

Since Still shows that "u" block Lugers are code 42 for year 1939, it stands to reason the toggle train (or entire cannon) is not original to the frame.

One thing is for certain, the mag is not original to this gun. The "u" shown on the magazine is a different style from the "u" on the frame. The "u" on the magazine shows a horizontal bar on top of the left upper portion. The "u" on the frame shows a leading leg sweeping up to begin the "u". Does anyone with a "u" block Luger have a suffix similar to the one shown on the magazine?

It amazes me at how well many of you have become at scrutinizing these guns to check for originality. These days it is a necessity I'm sure. My comment is on the file marks John mentioned. The marks he refers to are perfectly symetrical and it would be very had if not impossible to do that with a file? It looks to me like a greater possibility of a milling machine? Just trying to learn what to look for as to originality. It is a beautiful pistol regardless and worth the money--no? I also noticed what looks like that safety I read about in other posts that has the pin blocking the trigger. It can be seen in one of the pics or is that something else?

There are two variations in which an E/63 magazine would support a U-Block. The first is a 1937, 2nd Variation and the other is a 1939 Code 42. There is a slight difference in the two, which is the size of the acceptance mark. The 1937 stamping is smaller that the 1939. The photo tells me this is the Larger of the two and rightfully belongs to the 1939.

There were only 12 receivers that would be available to provide both the 1939 chamber date and the 5084 reciever number, so the chances of it being a different receiver are remote.

The best bet would be a changed toggle assembly or toggle link.

Now, I really hate to muddy the water, but . . .

Jan Still reports what he calls "out-of-sequence" Production, Page 91, Third Reich Lugers. Here he shows a 1940 Code S/42, 1940 byf and a 42 Code 42. Now who knows how many of these exist and if they are indeed legitimate. Now that's 3 pistols in 300,000 or more Lugers. I guess if one would belive the existence of a 1949 Code S/42, a U-Block 1939 Code S/42 is possible.

The pistol in question could be either an out-of-sequence or it has a toggle transplant, and which is original finish or reblued.

I guess at this point, you pays your money and takes your chances. IMHO it is worth more than $500, but would hesitate to spend more than $1000.

Nuff Said, at least from me !! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Regarding the machining marks at the base of the butt around the magazine well: my 1936 S/42 exhibits the same marks. By their size, depth, and regularity they are obviously machining marks, artifacts of manufacture.

Regarding the trail under the safety lever (or lack of same): I have two Lugers which have seen very little use (one a re-blue, one original) whose wear trail is so light that it can only be seen if the light is just right for it.

--Dwight

To everyone who has taken the time to write me a response or two, Thank You very much! I still haven't gotten "to the bottom of it," in finding definitive answers to my questions, but the suggestions given by forum members should be of assistance when I get to break down the pistol again.

My initial dilemma was this: the fellow who wants to sell the Luger asked $900.00 for it and as that's a good chunk of change for a working man like me I wanted to be able to justify spending that much (because he will not come down on the price).

At this point in time, I'm still not certain that the full asking price is justified. However, now my wife has become interested in this too, and she agrees, with Frank, that I should pay my money and take my chances. It wouldn't be the first thing we ever spent too much money on! If it turns out that it is actually a collector's piece, great....if not, then we'll both enjoy it out at the range.

I'll be back again once I have answers, or think I do, to the questions that have been raised.

I'd print these pages out and then talk to the guy.

I'd try to get the price down a hundred or two or so???

I'm definitly not an expert at whether or not it has been refinished or not. But, to me, it looks refinished. I base this on the fact that it appears by the photo's that there is relatively no holster wear. This is a major warning flag.

If you can, take a mag light and magnifying glass and look at the finish. Under light, does the finish have a rusted/blued look?? That's one way to tell.

To me $900-$1,000 is way too much for a refinished Luger. But it might not be to you.

Just remember that there are other Lugers out there and you don't have to settle for this one particular one.