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CCW, a Luger? (Dumb question # 2)
Sounds silly but i really want to know if any of you do carry a Luger.
This will fade away certain doubts i have about the reliability and efectiveness of the Luger compared to more modern guns in the defensive role. Would any of you guys trust them so far as to bet your lifes on them? Next obvious question for an affirmative reply is what kind of holsters do you use for such a task. Thanks, 0-0 |
Ronin, this was brought up before and generally most people said they'd carry something else if given the chance. Not anything wrong with it, just newer guns designed years later.
But I am also of the opinion that a gun that served through two world wars would work against a bad guy [img]mad.gif[/img] but if given the chance I'd grab a 1911A1 or my S&W 25-2 (a .45 revolver) or even better a shotgun! [img]wink.gif[/img] |
Hello Ronin,
My gun of choice is my P-12/45 Para-Ordinance, .45 ACP, single action, with 12+1 rounds... Very small, all steel, reliable feeding, and accurate as all heck... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> |
ccw a Luger? I tried it once with an artilery model. Walked around for a couple of weeks with it till one day a young woman giggled and said "You sure got a skinny thing mister." That was the end of that. In reality though I wouldn't for several reasons. 1. My Lugers are almost 100 years old, a lot of high pressure rounds have gone through them, I would not want something to give when I needed it most. I would want something more recently made. 2. The Luger is a full size service weapon and is a bit cumbersome for ccw, to me anyway. 3. The sights, modern pistols have much better sights. etc. Lugers are beautiful pieces of machining and pleasent to shoot and look at but by the 1920,s better pistols had come along. If I was transported back in time to 1940 I'd pick a Colt M1903 or 08, the Walther PP, PPK or P-38, Mauser Hsc, the great 1911A1, Browning Hi-Power, or the outstanding Radom.
tipoc |
While i agree with you and personally would and do exactly the same, go for a modern piece in a smaller size, i was curious to find out if any of you would "bet the farm" on a Luger.
Apparently not. That makes a ton of sense. But you never know... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> |
My answer for the bump noise in the night gun is an all steel .45 ACP Colt Commander, personally converted for me to a true double-action by Lewis W. Seecamp in the mid 1970's... It has NEVER had a malfunction. I feed it pure hardball loads.
I has been a comforting companion on many a dark and stormy night... (bet you guys are glad I don't write novels for a living!)... but the above statement is non-fiction. I love Lugers for their remarkable engineering and elegance of design, but my life I trust to this remarkable short Colt 1911A2. (No the A2 is not a mistake, it is my designation for this hybrid). [img]wink.gif[/img] |
Ronin, if I were to bet the farm, it would be with a 1911, 45 ACP. I would not hesitate to use a Luger or P38 in good condition. I have found with the proper load each of the latter would do the job nicely. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
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Ronin,
LUGERS would, in my opinion, hold their own in todays assortment of defensive handguns. I do think however that there are much practical handguns to carry as defensive pieces... Working Law Enforcement, my service piece is a WALTHER P99 with WIN SXT 147gr JHP ammo. Various backups include PPK.s, 38 snubbies and a Beretta 25. My favorite OFF-DUTY piece is a GLOCK 19 with that same 147gr ammo. I do have other favorites: LWT Commander 45, S&W Magnums, etc To me, important aspects of carrying a handgun for self defense are: CONFIDENCE & COMFORT. Sure enough you have to select a good reliable handgun with effective ammunition. 9mm is not my first choice of a defensive caliber ( I prefer BIG BORES & MAGNUMS ) but with good ammo, it does the job. If I was to go in harms way I'd pick a 4 inch Model 29 with Silvertips....But as an everyday carry piece, being 5'8 & 165 pounds, I'm happy with my GLOCK 19 [img]wink.gif[/img] kidvett |
Not wanting to make a poll on an off topic subject here but obviously you all have your other "beloved" and trusted ones.
I'm a left dominant eye leftie that shoots mostly with right handed HK .40 USPs. I say mostly since i do so because guns are designed with righthanded people in mind. And carrying does require, IMHO, a lot of training. I've been a rightie all of my shooter's life but am now training myself to become ambidextrous, i switch my USP right carry with a left carry P7M13 every other day. This way i'm a 100% southpaw. This only to clear the off topic chit chat. So, no one will consider the Luger. I must confess i'm a tinsy bitsy dissapointed but glad that you guys keep an absolutely open mind when it comes to handguns. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> 0-0 |
As I've indicated in another thread, I wouldn't feel badly about carrying a Luger - even a 7.65mm - if I had no other choice. However, my first preference is my 1927 Argentine Colt loaded with Black Talons or Golden Sabres. It's extremely reliable with anything I put in it... and accurate! If I go out at night, depending upon where I intend to go, I sometimes stick a Makarov in 9x18mm or a Tokarev in 9mm in the car. Both are dependable.
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My Serious carry pieces are a Model 27 .357, H&K Compact 45 acp, then lastly the P.38 in 9mm of course. We have not CCW here (passed it but the NM supreme court deemed it "unconstitutional") Since no CCW, the size is not a big issue. This is usually when traveling in my truck around town.
For light carry I drop a S&W Model 66 .357 snubbie into my back pocket or a PPK either 9mm Kurz or 7.65. This is usually around the house. When I go field testing in the desert, I alway drag along one of my AKs. Ya just never know!! I guess you get the impression I am always armed...you'd be right! Aint America great! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> |
I would not care to have any of my Lugers confiscated and booked as evidence. Policemen take joy in taking the evidence guns down to the range and running a few cases of bullets through them. And you may never see the firearm again, even if acquitted of any wrong-doing.
No, they can have my S&W .44 mag for their fun shooting! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> (Most of my 'carry' is in bear country.) |
I like the Luger, it is fairly small and compact BUT I think a dangerous piece to shove in the waistband. For "dark and stormy nights" I like the 45 long colt. I have a Alberti repro of the Remington single action and a 1878 double action Colt rebarreled and recylindered for smokeless. Sigle actions are pretty quick for the first two shots. And when wheel guns jam, you just thumb the hammer again.
But, the Luger would definitely do. Also, like the 1911, it gets a lot of respect when it comes out as the mass psyche accepts it as a serious pistol. Heinz |
Heinz,
As a sidebar, isn't it amazing how the 1911 has influenced the psyche of mankind as to what a serious semi-auto should look like? |
Heinz,
You just reminded me of a scene in Band of Brothers were one of the G.I. shoots (and kills)himself accidentally with a Luger. Would anyone care to explain why did this happened or why is the gun labelled as extremely unsafe in that episode? Does the safety not usually work as advertised? 0-0 |
Doubs,
Glad to hear that you like your model 1927. Is it a regular Colt (made in USA for us) or and argentinian manufacture? Have you had extensive work done on it to have it feed non-ball ammo? I have a Ballester Molina myself but i just like to keep it around, i rather shoot my HK Mark 23 or my P9S if i come across some .45 ammo. Ammo is terribly expensive nowadays. 0-0 |
With a hammer gun, you can see that it is cocked. Only a fool would walk around with the hammer pulled back. With a Luger, the firing pin is almost always cocked with the safety on when a round is in the chamber. If the firing pin were as obvious as the hammer, it would be a bit disconcerting.
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[quote]Originally posted by ronin:
<strong>Doubs, Glad to hear that you like your model 1927. Is it a regular Colt (made in USA for us) or and argentinian manufacture? Have you had extensive work done on it to have it feed non-ball ammo? 0-0</strong><hr></blockquote> Ronin, my 1927 was Argentine-made and issued to the National Maritime Police or your equivalent of the Coast Guard. It's all matching and even with a bore that is badly pitted, it's very accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets. The 1927's were "throated" (chamber mouth beveled and widened and polished) during manufacture and mine feeds anything just as I received it. I had it parkerized and the sights changed to fixed combat sights. While I had a new slide and ejector fit so I could use it for .41 AE, 9mm, .38 Super and .30 Mauser, in it's .45 configuration it's essentially as-issued with the exception of the sights. (I also have the barrel and recoil spring for .38/45, a wildcat that comes close to .357 Magnum velocities.) The original slide had the ejector slot widened because the 9mm ejector sits closer to the bore line than the .45 ejector. The 9mm ejector works with all of the cartridges. I also have two Navy issue 1927's and one that was converted to .22 LR for the police to use for practice. I've not fired any of them. The 1927 used to be one of the very best buys on our surplus market and could be had for less than $200. The word has finally gotten around that they are very high quality and now they typically go for more than $300.... usually much more. I know I like mine a lot. |
I must admit I feel more like putting on the small PPK in a shoulder holster after a good JAmes Bond movie, the Model 29 in one after seeing a Dirty Harry movie. A Beretta after one of the Die Hard movies! A Luger or P.38 when watching Where Eagles Dare, Bridge too far, Devils Brigade, Bridge at Remagen, The Dirty Dozen, Battle of the Bulge, Cross of Iron or a Man from Uncle replay. I do slip Luger into a 45 Shoulder holster occasionaly
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"It has been a comforting companion on many a dark and stormy night..."
If you write a novel and it starts like that, I'll buy it, John! Best regards |
Hey Thor,
I thought of posting this topic right after watching The Longest Day. I thought it was way cool to hand around with a Luger all day . [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Die Hard is a P7 movie! forget about the Berettas. Hans Gruber �¼ber Alles! [img]wink.gif[/img] You certainly know your classics down to the Cross of Iron included, i�´m impressed <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> 0-0 |
:_otopic:
I thought you guys might like to see this beauty of a conversion that I spoke of earlier in this thread... Steel Framed Colt Combat Commander converted to true double-action by L. W. Seecamp Sr. in 1976. This is my carry gun. She isn't a lightweight, but she will last for the long haul. http://www.lugerforum.com/images/seecamp1.jpg http://www.lugerforum.com/images/seecamp2.jpg Isn't she a beaut! There aren't many like her, and she takes her bodyguard role very seriously. |
Uh, Thor, is it conspicuous consumption if one can select a sidearm from his assemblage to match the mood movie for the day?
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I was wondering the exact same thing last night, right after watching Men In Black i felt the urge to clean my "Noisy Cricket" <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
0-0 |
John, What a unique pistol! Was this a common conversion, done by Mr Seecamp on any other pistols? What pound pressure is the DA? Sounds like a really good idea. Jerry Burney
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My little boy with the big mouth, he fits very nicely in my shirt pocket. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSCN0506.JPG
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Jerry,
the Seecamp conversion was only done on the Steel version of the 1911A1 frame in either standard or Commander length. It is a pretty unique conversion. I doubt he converted more than 50 or so. At some point the patent was sold to a company in New Jersey whose name I can't seem to remember and they attempted to market the gun in both blue and stainless, but I have no idea how successful they were or if they got past the prototype stage. Perhaps someone with a grounding on one of the 1911 websites might read this and fill us both in. The conversion creatively hangs a mechanism similar in nature to the P-38 into machine cuts made into the right side of the frame and the double action trigger is added. The gun functions in both single and double action modes and in the event of a combat type loss of one of the double action parts, they can be readily removed and the gun returns to single action. I would guess that the weight of the double action pull is similar to the P-38 but I have never measured it. The trigger is wide and smooth like a S&W combat revolver trigger and is a joy to use... I have only been in touch with 2 other owners of this conversion a year or two ago and they bought them from someone else. Lewis Seecamp did mine for me personally... The asking price on the last one I saw for sale was $1250.00 and I wouldn't part with mine for twice that... We have been through too much together to get a divorce now [img]biggrin.gif[/img] |
Thor,
Since you can't always know what movie is going to be showing on TV, you really should be wearing everything on your list whenever you sit down in front of the tube. Regards, Gene |
Good Idea Gene! I have to try it sometime. I might need Natalie to hand feed me the popcorn. I will be too loaded down to move! lol <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
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Nice .45 John..!!! Yowzaaa...!!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]
For a CCW firearm, if you are actually carrying - try a Berretta 84 or 85 or a Glock. Small frame, excellent reliability, excellent accuracy. If you are looking for a "nightstand" weapon - I agree with John S. - try an O-frame (Colt/Springfield) in .45 or .38 Super or 9mm or 10mm. I use a 10mm that I rebuilt for competition off a Delta Elite frame, but it is too big for everyday concealed carry. HTH!! John D. |
Gee ! I feel like a piker since I only carry my unmodified 1911A1 in a thumb break Bianci holster.
I've had others in the past but I guess the .45 is too much like me, old, fat, and slow ! But if I had a shoulder holster and a Luger with a spare mag, I would carry it on occassion. Hard to beat the picture I have from the W.E.B. Griffen series of books on the Army, where the hero carried his in a shoulder holster with a brass plate that said "God with us" in german on the holster. <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> |
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Anyway, here is a poor copy of a pic in Nonte's book showing the Seecamp conversion. You can just make out the pin on the hammer that the drawbar hooks on, and the corresponding trigger pin. Stub of original Colt trigger is visible. Hairpin spring holds drawbar up in position for cocking. The picture doesn't show the sideplate that covers the drawbar & internals. I've always liked the basic idea, but never liked the triggerguard modification or the fact that it was only [AFAIK] offered in the Commander length. |
TWELVE YEAR OLD THREAD?
jeeeez :D |
The Seecamp conversion leans heavily on the mechanical design of the Walther P.38 Thanks for posting the photo from George Nonte. If that example had an arched mainspring housing, it could easily have been my pistol during the conversion! But this one has the flat housing. I only wish I had had the opportunity to meet personally with Lewis. I did all the arrangements by phone and had my gunsmith mentor do the shipping.
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I had a full size commercial Colt at the same time, and had a choice, but decided to go with my steel framed Commander because I was going to carry it and the shorter length was more appropriate. Looking back, I should have done the full size gun, because you can mount the Commander slide and barrel on a full size frame and have the best of both worlds. Short length when it matters, and long length when it doesn't. As far as the trigger guard change, it is quite practical and I found that the front became more support hand friendly than the original shape. I never saw that the trigger guard shape change was necessary from a function viewpoint. This was NOT a difficult conversion from a machinist point of view. I am sure that you have the skills to do this to a 1911 frame. All you would need is a working example to make duplicate parts. The paperwork is another matter. As this conversion required machining through the original placement of the serial number, you would need BATFE pre-approval for movement of the serial number to stay legitimate because you would be "defacing" the original serial number... |
Mr. Sabato, that is a truly unique weapon you have! Do you know of anyone else that is doing similar conversions?
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I don't know of anyone currently doing this conversion. I also don't have any idea how many Lewis Seecamp did when he was alive. Some internet googling might answer that question. You may find a used one if you keep an active search philosophy... watch the usual suspects like gunbroker and gunsamerica... the last one I saw for sale was around $1500-1700, but that was some time ago.
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Guns And Ammo's choices~ http://www.gunsandammo.com/gun-revie...ndgun-reviews/ ~Eric
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Okay... a quick Google search turned up this history...
http://www.seecamp.com/companyhistory.htm L.W. Seecamp Co, Inc. was founded in 1973 as a family business specializing in Ludwig's patented (#3722358) double action conversion of the venerable 1911 semi-auto pistol (Colt .45). This conversion, done during a period when the single-action versus double-action controversy was at its peak, resulted in the first commercially available DA .45 autoloaders anywhere in the world. Nearly 2000 such DA conversions were done from the early 70s to the early 80s. Ludwig had become a firm believer in the value of DA after a Walther P-38 saved his life in WWII. That incident, which left him with a cheek-long scar and some missing teeth from a bullet wound, also convinced him point shooting rather than sight use is the reality in close range combat. Having been a fan of the 1911 but being also an advocate of DA carry, commercial conversions were a natural outgrowth of the Colt 45 that Ludwig had converted to DA for his own personal protection. More great info on this conversion: http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2...m=1182143251/0 http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2...rd=conversions http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2...num=1389748263 http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2...1169272141/9#9 This one is especially for Sheepherder :) : http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2...1334079588/8#8 |
:eek: WOW, saved by a P-38?!? I love stories like that. I shall indeed keep an eye out for such a conversion on Gunbroker! Hopefully within the next several months I shall be entering into a career that will allow me to aquire such fine shooting instruments!
Intresting how the side plate is held in by the grip and grips screws! There appears to be Colt Commanders that were shortened from their original size. |
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The Seecamp Forum requires registration; maybe later...
I did find some other Forums with pics and stories...It appears the conversion process evolved over time...There were full-length conversions as well... John, it's not quite that easy to put the Commander slide/barrel on a 5" frame and expect it to work...I've done it but it does require a bit of machining to the frame...Otherwise the Commander slide won't travel rearward far enough...In the old days (before Commanders), they just cut 3/4" off the slide/barrel & re-cut the bushing slot... I probably could do the conversion, I have the patent number now...And it looks do-able...Maybe someday... :rolleyes: |
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