Five Lugers in Yemen
 

Hi all,

Am a new user. I ran across five Lugers in the Souk here in Yemen and am considering a purchase(s). Thought the groupo might help me make a decision on whether or not to buy and what a 'fair' price is.

Provided below is a description of the first two (I will add the others later) as much as I could gather at the time in the shop(s) using the website guidelines:

Number 1
Toggle description: S/42 (Gothic S)
Chamber inscription: K
S & K Toggle Knob
Grip Safety not present
Stock lug present
9mm
Brown Plastic Grips - good condition
Safe rear - Gesichert

The letter 'S' on right side of receiver above proof marks, right side of trigger, left of take down button, left side of receiver (on that square panel?)right side of gun where mag release button comes through, front of trigger guard, on that thing that comes up when the safety is off?.

Proof marks on right side of receiver are from proof page #4, #44.

Bottom of barrel has 882 stamped below serial number.

All serial numbers match with exception of bottom of magazine. Magazine has the number 2 also.

Proof marks I couldn't find reference to. Down and left of the serial number on left side of receiver is what looks like a sun with rays radiating out of it, but sun has no center (kinda like a ring) with the number 8 in the middle. On the front of the gun (above the trigger guard and below the barrel) right below the serial number is what looks like half of a 10 point star (like you see on military guys chests) with the letter 'U' stamped in it. I know I'm reachin on this description people.

Gun still has over 95% bluing.

Number 2
Toggle description: DWM
Chamber inscription: 1921
S & K Toggle Knob
Grip Safety not present
Stock lug present
9mm
Brown Plastic Grips - good condition
Safe rear - Gesichert

Proof marks: bottom of barrel - proof page 1, #4, or proof page 3, #28 (crown over N).

Right side receiver proofs; 1st proof page 3, #31, 2nd proof page 3, #33, 3rd proof page 3, #31.

Bottom of barrel doesn't have serial numbers.

All serial numbers match including bottom of magazine. Magazine has the number 2 also.

Gun still has over 95% bluing.

Hope to initiate discussion and learn something. Will post the description of other three later, any suggestions on improving my input are welcome.

Regards,

Robert

Robert, do the brown plastic grips have a bullseye on them...

If so these are likely VOPO, i.e., east german volkspolizei refinished Lugers...

These currently fall into the class of shooters but in time will have a following of their own as far as collectability...

Photos would make all the difference in the world about getting a decent appraisal here on the forum... I would suggest that you buy or borrow a good digital camera and post some photos (top, and both sides) in good focus.

It might be easier for you to tell us what money they are being offered for?

Can I presume that you are in the U.S. Military? or are you just passing through Yemen on other business?

John,

They all have bullseyes on grips with the exception of one (which I have yet to describe). Is there any pecking order on these bulls-eyed ones? Will try to get pictures out.

Am working here for an oil company.

Regards,

Robert

John,

Forgot the prices, range from $140-$255.

Robert

John and all,

Here's the one without the bullseye on grips:

Number 3
Toggle description: byf
Chamber inscription: 42
S & K Toggle Knob
Grip Safety not present
Stock lug present
9mm
Checkered wooden grips, walnut?, pretty worn
Safe rear - Gesichert

Right side receiver proofs; Proof page 4, #46, right one of these also on barrel. Middle one of these on bottom of magazine with number 85 below it.

Looks like entwined ribbon below serial number on front of gun below serial number - suufix page says its the letter 'F'.

P.08 on left side of receiver.

All serial numbers match except magazine, magazine also has letter 'H' on it.

Bottom of barrel has serial number.

Most of bluing gone from gun.

Regards,

Robert

Robert, at those prices... BUY THEM ALL if they are in any kind of reasonable condition. You should at least double your money and probably more if you bring them back to the U.S. someday. Just be sure to do your Customs form 6 in advance of your return so that you can get pre-approval to import your Curio & Relic firearms.

What a lucky find!

Here are a couple of recent photos posted by members of the class of Luger you are describing:


http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/GDATE2a.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/GDATETBb.jpg

Keep your head down Robert... That is likely to be a very hot part of the world in the next few months... and I don't mean the ambient temperature.

John,

If I didn't want to buy them all which ones should I leave out, one or some of the bullseyed ones?

They are DWM - 1921
Mauser Banner - 1941
S/42 K
42 41 (this ones got military markings)

Robert

S/42 K
Mauser Banner - 1941
42 41 (this ones got military markings)
DWM - 1921


When you buy Lugers, it is always condition, condition, condition, but I would personally rate their desirability in the order shown above... others may have a different opinion.

If any of them have NOT been refinished, then they jump to the top of the BUY IT list. Original condition is always better than refinished. Check the serial number stamps carefully to see if any have been renumbered... Those without multiple stamps will be worth more.

What is the 5th one that is not listed?

John,

Do you mean the top of the list above has the highest desirability or the lowest?

The fifth one is the one without the bullseye that I described as number 3 above (byf).

Thanks for all your help!

Robert

I would want to buy them all also, but legally you may have trouble bringing them into the US.

What rules have they told you about buying firearms?

For the military, we could buy a pistol, provided we submitted paperwork to the US Gov't and waited anywhere from a month to several months. (all hearsay, I have never brought a gun back from overseas, but I researched it for others on several occasions, as I ran the MP Physical Security Section).

So, you might be able to purchase, but have trouble bringing them into the states. Placing them into hold baggage (if you actually live there for a long period of time) or throwing them into your luggage, they may very well be confiscated on returning to the US. Actually this is a for sure if they check you and you have NO paperwork allowing them into the US.

Edward,

I had planned on bringing them back some day under "curios and relics". One of my relatives has an FFL and offered to do the paper work for me. He says it can be done but it takes time. I guess if it doesn't work then I'm not out much, may be worth a try?

Robert

The ones at the top of my list I consider most desirable... but others may differ with me.

The K-date is a sought after Luger. All are desireable to me!

Like both Ed and I have stated. Get your paperwork in order long before you come back to the States--You may have to work with a known Luger dealer that has imported Lugers before...but it will be worth it. Especially at those prices.

Forum Members,

Does "curios and relics" apply here? I thought if the ammunition was still commercially manufactured, then the firearm does not qualify?

Is there an age limitation as well that I am not aware of??

Thanks,
Fritz.

Fritz,

From my limited knowledge I think curios and relics starts with pre 1946, then is whittled down from there, no autos etc.

Robert

Rabbrt,

Buy the K date, it is rarer than the other dates and is worth more even if reblued. The "sun" marks are East German Vopo proofs. The gun has probably but not necessarily been reblued by a Vopo armoury, but is still a desirable variation.
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Fritz, I agree that all of these at @$300 or under are at about half of the current prices here for any VOPO rework and most of the ones that you list are some what scarce, being advertise for up to $750. Just about any pistol over 50 years old (currently, made before 1952) qualifies as a curio, and can be brough in on an FFL or FCL, if NOT MILITARY, which all of your appear to be. Since, I have not imported any thing post Clinton, it's possible that things have easied, but I doubt it. If possible your should send all of your data to your FFL friend, to submit to the BATF on a Form 6, just to see what they will allow. Technically, since they are not for his personal use, you should be going thru a licensed importer, which would add $100 to $150 per gun. Tom H.

All,

I have been trying to put photos on the site but am having difficulty. Any assistance would be appreciated, maybe it is Teleyemen. I ended up picking all 5 up as John and Ed suggested. I gave the DWM to one of my friends here in Yemen. I am going to try to import the remaining four.

Total cost with the help of my Yemeni friends negotiating (made them an offer they couldn't refuse) $700.

Robert

WOW! [img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> $700 for all of them! Robert, Even if you part them out and leave the registered frames in Yemen at the bottom of the bay you will get your invested money back, but DO try and get them back legally to the U.S. if you can. You just saved 5 Lugers from being lost... you deserve a medal and the opportunity to own them HERE.

Best of Luck to you.

I am waiting for the photos to arrive by email. I will post them in this thread when they do.

A interesting thread in the best tradition of the U.S. military -- souvenir hunting!

Ironic that some WWII German trophies would show up in Yemen on the onset of another possible war.

Truth is stranger than fiction...

There are now some good photographs of the "Five Lugers in Yemen" in a Member Gallery Album of the same name...

For the time being you will have to just figure out which is which by looking at the properties for the photos... when I get time I will caption each of them so you will know what you are looking at before you 'click'

John et al,

Now that the photos are in the gallery, can you assess the approximate value of each? I have no intention of selling them, want to distribute them to family members, and keep one for me! However, I would like to know about what the market says they are worth.

Robert

Robert...

Placing a market value on your guns without a detailed examination of each one, to include determining whether or not the parts are all genuine matching numbers or were force matched by the east germans would be sketchy at best, but I can tell you this.

Guns in lesser condition sell on AuctionArms.com and Gunbroker.com every week for as little as $450 and as much as you paid for all five of them for EACH gun...

I would not sell them for less than $500 each...IF I were going to sell them...but I will not ever sell a Luger that I manage to possess.

I notice that 4 of the 5 magazines are the milled/extruded variety instead of the stamped and folded type... How are the bottoms marked? If they are original "FXO" marked magazines in good condition, the magazines alone are worth almost half of what you paid for all 5 of these guns.

John,

S/42 magazine marked with a number 2 then a serial number, doesn't match gun.

byf magazine marked with a serial number (doesn't match gun) the letter 'h' from the suffix page, and proof mark #46, with the number 83 below that.

Mauser banner magazine is marked with serial number (same as gun) and the number 2.

42 41 marked with the number 2 and serial number (same as gun).

DWM marked with the number 2 and serial number (same as gun).

Can you expand on "milled/extruded variety instead of the stamped and folded type... and "FXO" marked magazines.

I'm learning a lot, and enjoying it.

Robert

The milled or extruded type magazines have the appearance that they have been machined out of a single block of metal...because they are.

here is an example:

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/fxomagexample.jpg

When you look at a folded sheet metal magazine's feed lips, you can plainly see that the magazine tube is made of two pieces (front and back) that are crimped together...

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Fo...talmaglips.jpg

Naturally the milled type is the most durable.

John,

You're right, four of the five are milled, how could you see that without the magazines out?

Do the numbers I provided above shed any light?

Robert

I would tell you X-ray vision, but the truth is that the milled magazines just have a different appearance when they are in the pistol. The metal portion of the tube extends past the frame at the front when the magazine is installed.

The chances are that your magazines marked with matching numbers could very well be original, but that can't be determined without some very closeup photos of the tubes from both sides, and closeups of the bottoms from different angles... diagnosis from long distance must rely on good photos...

Robert,
so you are going to distribute them to family... I am your long lost brother on your dads side. Let me know when you get into town. We will have a few beers and exchange gifts that I have been saving for you all these years.
Big Norm <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

I just wanted to let everyone know that I finally accomplished shipping the Lugers from Yemen to the States.

For those interested, it was a pretty long process. Our initial application to the BATF was rejected on the basis of the Lugers being military. They stipulated that they must go through a licensed importer. However, Simpson's Ltd. was very helpful in this regard. Total time from application to receipt in the States was 9 months.

The beauracracy on the Yemen side was just as bad but circumvented with baksheesh.

I wanted to thank John Sabato for all his guidance. John, you are a gentleman!

Thor has got hold of two of them now, I can't wait to receive them!

Robert

My pleasure Robert... Glad these guns have a good home here in the U.S. with someone who appreciates them instead of being tucked into the waistband of a Yemeni cab driver... I spent a year in that part of the world back in the '70s and while grateful for the experience, I am glad I live HERE!

I have his nice K date, no joke, and his 1941 Banner Luger in my shop! The K date has been refinished before and shows some signs of missing stampings and numbers. The Banner is pretty nice with some pitting overall and on the barrel and grip straps especially. These Lugers are WELL WORTH what he paid for them. I dont know what the importation costs, but still I think he probably is well ahead of the game on these.

I hope we get to see good before and after photos Thor! So we can see that Luger magic that you weave...

You can see the before pictures on the members gallery about page 7 level.

Robert,

I have been trying to import a gun from Canada for the last 4 months, with little satisfaction thus far, my form 6 is â??still being processedâ?� is about the only words I can get out of BATF.

However I have heard that because the gun was military the application might be denied.

Investing another $200 - $300 to have it imported by a â??licensed importerâ?� is something that Iâ??m not prepared to do at this time.

Has anyone been successful lately (this Year) at getting Lugers from Canada on a form #6 ?
If so, I would like to hear from you

Thanks,
Jim

WOW, wouldnt this be a nice find! I was lucky to have worked on some of these after they came back.

Robert

I think that the best idea would be to post some photos just to have a better idea of what we are talking about.

Guys, this thread dates back to 2002! Alot of water over the bridge since then.

Comment by Alanint, emphasis by John S. :thumbsup:

I was lucky enough to restore a K date Mauser, Banner Police and Black Widow byf. I have before and After pictures if you want to see them. The transformation is pretty stark.

How do you feel about Browning HPs, Thor?

I just ordered a pre 1963 early style pistol from AIM Surplus, (they sold out of the early models in 20 minutes!). They appear to be police trade-ins and although I chose the "select grade", I don't really know what I will be getting.

Fine Firearm, I have restored 1/2 a dozen I think.