Faked, refinished and boosted Lugers.
 

How about a section dealing with faked, refinished, and boosted Lugers. Such Lugers are sold as correct at most gun shows, auctions, and dealers lists. They pose a particular problem for the new collector who often finds that he was burned well after the fact. If we deal with the details of the particular Luger under consideration and not the personalities of the owner or seller it should prove very helpful.
Jan C.Still

I think that with those parameters, it could be a very valuable section!!!

Jan, I think you have a good idea there. My concern is that there are so many, possibly thousands of variations, that this would be a real nightmare. My research has led me to believe that everytime a Luger went back for repair of something, or perhaps just an adjustment, someone added an inspection stamp or other mark. This is probably why all original, never repaired or adjusted Lugers have less inspection or 'proof' stamps than those that had several repairs. I have no proof of this but I suspect that even the unit armorers used stamps when parts were replaced. What are your thoughts on this?

Hi Jan:

I am glad you brought this subject up. I am just coming up to speed on this subject. Sharing what others look for is a great idea. The last three Lugers that I looked at were returned. It never hurts to have a sharp eye and an uninterested friend look at your purchase. Each Luger has its own story. We just need to know where and what to look for is all. Why not share those ideas here?

Dan

Hi Jan and all..!

I thought I'd post my comments back into the threads themselves - as I just touched on this in the "Unit Markings thread:
Unit Marking Thread but figured I should post my replies into each thread - to keep that thread open to something further thoughts/comments.

In short - I like the idea - but perhaps this is more specific as to how a fake is spotted determined within particuliar variations themselves - unlike a shooters/reloading forum - which spans several "eras" and interests? That being said - this Forum is still new - so I really appreciate the comments and suggestions for improvements - and invite your thoughts back!

Best to all..!

sorry, but unless jan or kenyon or some other luger expert can inspect every luger questioned on this new board then there bound to be problems simply because we are all human, we make mistakes and often speak or type without thinking.

a big can of worms if you ask me. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

TC
I don't consider myself an expert at detecting fakes and refinishes, but I know enough about finishes, markings, variations, history etc. to mostly keep myself out of trouble. Sometimes I depend on my more expert friends. In most cases it doesn't take a Kenyon or a Still to detect a fake.

Over the years I have gotten too many calls from closet Luger collectors that have discovered their rare-mint gems are fakes or reblues. Often the damage is not detected until they attempt to sell their prizes and find that honest dealers who know what they are looking at won't buy them. If the real world is ignored, beginning collectors are easy victims of dishonest dealers and the problem keeps accumulating in their collections.
Jan C. Still

I have a real hard time with faked Lugers. The subject makes my blood boil. On the last forum there was a discussion about 1904 navies and I learned a lot about them as a result. I ended up not purchasing one and saved myself a lot of money. This money was later used to buy a 1900 DWM Borchardt that I am very happy with. So I totally agree with Jan on the subject of faked Lugers.
On refinished Lugers, I don't know. I had some Kreighoffs that I took to some experts and friends and they could not tell me whether or not they were restored. I also had a 1916 navy that I had expertly restored. This gun was destined for the scrape heap but I feel that I saved a bit of history and a fine gun. As long as no metal has been altered, like adding proof marks or unit marks, or the serial numbers altered, then I don't feel that the buyer has been cheated. But I agree that this is drawing a fine line.
I don't know just what Jan means by boosting. The last issue of AutoMag they discussed refinishing and restoring as though they were separate terms. I don't know what the difference is.
Big Norm

As a relatively new collector, I like the idea, Mr. Still. [img]smile.gif[/img]

All of the Luger books I have read, especially the Still and Kenyon books, are very helpful to newcomers; but they don't address this subject.

Everything I have learned about fakes, boosted Lugers, rebluing, etc. came from Luger Forum discussions and personal contact with members of the Forum over the last year. This support has saved me from expensive mistakes at least twice in the last few months.

Creating an area where these subjects can be objectively discussed would be helpful. If the issues are handled without names and personalities, we can all learn a lot. I, personally, don't need to know WHO did it or WHO sold it. I want to know what the problem is, how it was done, and how to detect it.

I think we must be very very careful to keep names of sellers and serial numbers of specific guns out of the public discussions or we will surely end up with hottly debated fighting that could shut the forum down again. We must not go down the road that shut the forum down before. I think polite education is a good thing and can be done if that is the intent of the poster. I think the intentions are good but these types of discussions can EASILY explode into something that was not orginally intended. I think we must be very careful with this topic. It is important for Luger buyers to be informed buyers.

<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
A forum for the discussion of refinished, boosted, and faked Lugers is very important. The knowledge to distinguish between a factory original and an altered or restored Luger is very useful for every collector.

It will be very difficult to avoid disagreement of what should be collectable and what should be a shooter. Our points of view are determined by the variables that caused us to become interested in Lugers originally, modified by time, knowledge, and money.

A forum cannot affect time or money, but association and discussions with men who have spent decades studying the Luger will add substantially to our knowledge.

Moderators will keep us civil.

Regards,
wes <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

Thor & Wes,

Very astute comments indeed...

[img]smile.gif[/img]

I think it is important to report and fully describe these 'juiced' guns, including serial numbers.

In the P38 world, I have maintained a database for 25 years. I now have more than 19,000 entries and can, often, report that I have seen or had a gun reported BEFORE it acquired that rare mark!
EXAMPLE

In 1983, I examined an AC41 on a dealers table at the Sacramento Show. A year later, the same dealer had the same gun on display but now it was the "rare SA marked P38...Brandenburg-Berlin..the only example known!" When 'burned' in AUTOMAG, the dealer told me "Gee....I sold it last year and when I bought it this month, I did not know it was the same gun!" [yeah?...right!!]

The same dealer had previously sold a Mauser banner P08 with the identical markings!

The point of all this is...let us help each other? When MONEY is involved...ethics go right out the window!

Orv

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

I think everyone knows where I stand on this subject. It would be very helpfull to new collectors, providing such rudementary facts as "on an Imperial Luger, The inside of the chamber should not be blued" The look that a particular Luger's finnish should have; Rust, Dip, Salt, etc and from which period a particular finnish comes from. We need to be carefull, as Jan noted that we don't get into personalities in this section, but if a member has had a negative experience with a particular dealer, it should be able to be brought up. Chances are very good that it has happened to others. Especially in the event that the dealer is PURPOSELY doing this, it really has to be mentioned. Great example is Mitchel's Mausers, offering New Unissued P38's in wood boxes for $2000.00. Just a warning that the same guns can be bought for $389.00. No flames, just an honest warning, w/ the facts. The forum members can then make up their own minds. Just a couple of thoughts.

Der Waffen Sammler <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> [img]mad.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

I would think that as long as facts are stated, NONE of these, "my friend had this Luger that he bought from Tinker's Luger Corral and it was all ate up, with rust and mites on it".

If Tim says, I bought this rusted up piece of junk and Tinker's Luger Corral stated it was in good shape, then I don't see a problem with this.

FACTS and opinions dealing with the specific issue is fine, but rants and ravings of an off base subject should not be acceptable, and ought to be killed on the spot, IMO.

Ed, couldn't agree with you more!! Nice post!!

Hey, Ed,

Is that the kind of guns Tinkers Luger Corral sells? <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

[img]mad.gif[/img] for goodness sakes Hugh, why would I sell the nice ones?

[img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Some of the older members of NAPCA may remember a discussion of a Norweigian M/1914 shown in AutoMag with waffenampts. The pistol was right at the end of the cutoff for waffenampt pistols, but it just so happened that the previous owner of the pistol was also a NAPCA member and by the serial number knew the pistol had previously belonged to him. The present owner absolutely stated that the pistol was waffenampt when he bought it, and the original owner absolutely stated that the pistol did not have waffenampts when he owned it. It is very easy to believe the owner who said it was not waffenampt, so this pistol by serial number became a marked commodity. Who is to blame? Who knows; but at least there is public data on this pistol with the fake markings.

Just looked at E-Bay. There is an early original nickle plated wood bottom magazine that is unnumbered, current bid is $120, way too much for such an item. I'll betcha in a few days there will be another 'all matching including the magazine' up for sale somewhere. Would be interesting to see who gets it.

Hi All...

Yep - I'm still reading all these, as this subject still isn't closed (oh - and I just added the other two Forums). For that, many of you have terrific comments, examples and suggestions on a Forum based on Jan's suggestion - so please keep them coming, OK???

Best to all for a terrific weekend!

Big Norm asked what "boosting" is and didn't get a reply. I don't know what it means either, but I'll take a GUESS from context and maybe someone will be kind enough to correct me if needed.

Boosting must be different from faking or refinishing, so it probably means adding an identifier, such as a proof, to make a gun appear rarer than it is. An outrageous example might be stamping a certain script "GL" design on the tail of the rear toggle.

I have heard the term "boosting" a few times and the context then was "touching up" thin blue, such as at the muzzle, frame rails and side plate to give a few more per-cent rating for the gun (i.e. boosting it from 95% to 98%). The same goes for enhancing the straw on the small parts. Unfortunately, this is becoming almost commonplace and more and more folks are getting pretty good at it. The straw is usually easy to spot, the blue is somewhat more difficult. If you have any question, take the piece out into the sunlight and look for inconsistancy in the color of the blue on any given part. Not always 100% effective but just one more check.

Maybe I'm dense or being obvious here, but I get the sense of three distinct forum areas here:

1. A registry of known or owned Lugers and their salient features--all original; refinished or restored; proofs or markings present; unusual markings present; general condition; barrel length and caliber, of course--heck, Orv can probably even come up with some kind of template for this kind of thing. These guns need to be identified by serial#, of course, but no names.

2. A FAQ including the salient features of "proper" guns--where they are blued and where they are not, sharp edges, strawing or bluing, grip characteristics, etcetc. Also, the characteristics of known fakes.

3. A place for people to "bring" their guns, or prospective purchases, to have them identified and assessed. The terms "shooter" and "collector" as applied to individual guns are explicitly forbidden here. Dealers' names, or other sellers' names, may also be inappropriate here.

Am I on base?

--Dwight

Not bad Dwight:

1. A registry of known or owned Lugers...
This is an okay idea, but should probably be maintained individually. IMO

2. A FAQ including the salient features of "proper" guns--... Excellent Idea

3. A place for people to "bring" their guns, or prospective purchases, to have them identified and assessed. The terms "shooter" and "collector" as applied to individual guns are explicitly forbidden here. Dealers' names, or other sellers' names, may also be inappropriate here.

At first I didn't like how you didn't want to bring up the word shooter and collector, but then realized that you meant in this section ONLY, (sorry, me being dense) and I think this is an excellent idea, a section of the forum that has a warning banner that states, Opinions only and wanting a fair shake on what they have. Good idea Dwight, sounds to me like you got it down pat and you're doing good sir!


[img]smile.gif[/img]

Dwight,
A Registry is the obvious answer to a multitude of problems concerning authenticity of individual Lugers. However, a registry would turn into a dead letter eventually if maintained by an individual. It would take years to compile and would have to be a "for profit" item, which would cause it to eventually ceased to be expanded revised.

BUT!!!!!.....if there were a Luger Collectors Association of America, with a board of directors, elected by dues-paying members......

What do you think? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Regards,
wes

Actually, I was thinking "Registry" as an element of the Luger Forum, one of those left-side-of-the-page items. People would have to volunteer the info on their Lugers. Benefit would be seen, at least conceptually, as soon as somebody sells one of their Lugers. Of course, who here actually -sells- one of their guns... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

--Dwight

Hi Dwight,

Boy - that's a tough sell... I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. I sure wouldn't!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]

John D.,

Would ownership of a gun need to be associated with the gun?

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>Would ownership of a gun need to be associated with the gun?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would think so - for if info was needed that wasn't contained in the registry - there would have to be a "point" of contact from the person who entered the info (JP brought up the NAPCA exchange a bit ago, for example).. I can't imagine building a registry database that would be so complete - that no questions would ever need to be asked about a Luger in the future..?? Just my $0.00002...

John,

At some time in the future, I may find that I agree with you on this point, but for the moment let us consider whether or not we would trust the voluntary description of a gun by its owner.

Any reliable, permanent, authentic discription of the markings, condition, finish, and mechanical condition of a gun would have to be done by committee, not the voluntary, biased assessment of an owner.

[quote] .. I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. <hr></blockquote>

John, a number of years ago they made up a book on thousands of Mustang (Car) entries of full VIN numbers, addresses and names. It was all voluntary but you can look at the ones that people had their actual old original paperwork and see within days when your mustang was built. Very cool.

I actually don't understand the concern of putting your serial number out in the open?

Let us consider the value of a Luger that has been described in print or "documented" in one of the many Luger books. It's value is immediately vaulted and there is no fool on the face of the earth that would alter the gun in any manner.

And.......usually the only mention of ownership is "private collection" or the location of the museum. Mailing address is not mentioned.

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>
I actually don't understand the concern of putting your serial number out in the open?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Well - I do run a similiar "Registry" for Porsche owners with thousands of of users listed. Including VIN, e-mail address and state. I have my cars listed in those same registries as well. Maybe I'm the one who is being too conservative - because at the same time - I would never consider listing anything from my private Luger collection into a Registry on the Internet - even if I was the one who maintained it.. [img]frown.gif[/img]

John,

Should it be a registry of owners? or of guns?

I think it is useless to talk about Lugers unless you fully identify the gun. Then, later, when that Luger with a M/M sideplate shows up with all matching numbers, two #'d mags, a matching stock, and GL on the toggle, you will be able to dissuade the hapless new owner of his belief that the seller was not boosting a sale when he said it came out of private collection in the northeast where it had been kept wrapped in towel under a sofa for 50 years.

My P38 list [now 19,250 entries] shows 'source' but in many cases [or when requested] I show source as 'NAPCA' or 'Forum'. Most are reported but not owned so I don't see any big deal.

Several big collectors have had a code name assigned...just in case!

When cooperating with an author, I 'purge' that info anyway!

If one guy has reported over 3000...you don't think the GunGestapo is going to look to him for ownership, do you?

When I die, the list will live on. [I am 73 this week!] Perhaps it will not be updated, but I have arranged for Tom Knox, President of NAPCA to receive a CD with the data and instructions on sharing the info. My son will forward the CD when necessary.

I just found another matching mag for a gun reported 10 years ago....In this case, I know where the gun is!

Orv

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>Let us consider the value of a Luger that has been described in print or "documented" in one of the many Luger books. It's value is immediately vaulted.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea - but I think the difference is the "media". You have to "buy" those books, and some are rather expensive to access that information. On the Internet - I'm not convinced that all the folks who visit a site have "collectors" - or even gun owner - interests at heart, especially if that information and documentation is able to be publicly accessed..??


Nope - I'm still not convinced a "Registry" would work...???
[img]confused.gif[/img]

John,

I am not in favor of posting a registry on the net. Please do not even consider for a moment that I want that.

I believe that print is the way to go, but I realize that print has to be funded.

[quote]Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>Hi Dwight,

Boy - that's a tough sell... I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. I sure wouldn't!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

No names involved, just the gun info.

[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
<strong>

No names involved, just the gun info.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey wait a minute - before I get sucked into this conversation any further.. Just who are you nominating to program, build, design, host, support and manage this "Registry"???!!!

[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />