Maybe Time For A Poll...
 

Been thinking about this for a while :

I noticed the continuation of ads in the WTS/WTB Classifieds section for folks looking to change ownership for either "unmarked" luger parts or specially-numbered parts...

The specifically-numbered parts allows for the "forced matching" of luger parts to get a piece back to "all matching"status...

The use of un-marked parts can easily lend itself to modern-day serials being added to re-create another "all matching" piece.

Both are worrisome...(personally the forced matching does not insult me as much as the issue of un-numbered parts...)

Suggest we might want to set up a Poll on the Luger Forum to allow members the chance to voice their opinions if such ads should be allowed to prevail in the Classified section. If the majority of Members vote that such ads should not be allowed, maybe it is time to consider removal of such when they appear...

Here is an example of the poll questions :

Question # 1 :

Should WTS or WTB ads be allowed for posting on the LF for "un-marked" luger parts ?

Yes _____ No _____

Question # 2 :

Should WTS or WTB ads be allowed for posting on the LF for "specially numbered" luger parts ?

Yes _____ No _____

Look forward to what other folks might think on this issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete,

My only comment on your questions is: Aren't unnumbered parts perfectly legitimate for some commercial models? If so, how could we be right for the forum to ban ads for them?

Perhaps we just need a properly worded caveat about the boosting of antique firearms...

Anyone else care to comment? All opinions are welcome, but be advised that FLAMES will be extinquished with prejudice by the Administrative power of the delete post button... :)

Mr. Ebbink,

I have very mixed feelings on this, as I feel that period parts placed onto a period piece "should" be acceptable. However the "forced" matching to make the gun more valuable goes against my grain, and yet can understand. Lets say I have a nice gun in all matching except for (sorry Orv, there goes that except bit), except for a grip safety. One part got switched years ago. I would want to swap that part for a correct one and would personnaly not feel guilty. Yet I used to own a very mismatched 1940, if I had slowly force matched it, would that be ethical, to me no.

Then it appears to me that if we draw the line and say this is not ethical, or right for this forum, then will we say that only pure guns should appear on the threads? I don't mind and in fact enjoy the bull barrel or wild aspect on a Luger every now and then, but I know several members that appear to frown at other collectors that don't specialize.

So, selling or displaying those kind of items shouldn't appear either? Apples and Oranges I know, but where do you draw the line?

Ed

Collecting is a communion with one's intergrity and morality. We express our values and character without outside restraint, and set the limitations of our behavior.
No limitations or guidelines will improve the character of a man, so (surprise!) my vote is no restrictions.
Regards,
wes

Well said Wes, and I agree.

Joe

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by wes:
<strong>... so (surprise!) my vote is no restrictions.
Regards,
wes</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I am NOT surprised... and I concur with Wes.

A very wise woman (my wife) once defined integrity for me... she said, "Personal Integrity can be defined as what you do when nobody is looking..."

She has to be wise... she chose me :D

ACtually I think it is up to John Dunkle, the owner of this forum. A question directly to John might precipitate the answer or accelerate a poll either way.

Well Thor, if John has "allowed" this to go on, he must not mind? Either that or he is on hiatus?

:D

Ed

I have just polled John D. to review this thread. I would predict that he will have no objections to our current classifieds merchadise policy... or a poll for that matter...

but...I agree with Ted that John D. has the final say on forum policy. Contrary to popular opinion... this forum is not a democracy... it is actually run by a 'silent' board of 8 member directors... but the final say on operating policy is the sole prerogative of the system owner.

We shall await John D.'s input...

I'm not a "collector", but I'll weigh in with my opinion anyway, as i think all views should be represented. It was my understanding when we set up the Classifieds years ago, that they really were "public domain", and short of noticing something out and outright illegal, it was pretty much outside the realm of the Luger Forum.

That may have changed, but as I see it, one has to be careful not to become the "Classified Police". If we say we frown on this or that, or this or that should not be presented, then it falls on us to police it. And while none of us would support the enhancing of a mismatched Luger for monetary gain, are we really going to ride herd on everyone's ad to make sure nothing illegal is taking place, and how would that be determined anyway?

If we don't agree with the posting of ads looking for or hawking certain numbered parts, we don't have to respond to those ads. That in itself may be admonishment enough. My vote would be to maintain a "hands off" policy, because folks who want to bend the rules will do so, no matter what you do.

My 2�¢ worth...

Dok

My vote goes with not polling or attempting to control the ads for the reasons well stated by the gentlemen above.

I agree completely with the "no restrictions" policy.
Tom A.

Nice to hear from you Dok... with sage advice as always...

while I am at it... in case my feelings have not been made clear... I vote for the status quo.

Actually; I find myself in full agreement with Wes and others...no need for censorship in the Classifieds...

Maybe a Poll structured with very specific and pointed questions to "mine" the morals & character of our Membership might be fun and informative...

Such a Poll could contain yes/no questions such as the following and the Poll would need to be totally "confidential and anonymous" so folks would give honest replies...

Some question examples :

1. Do you personally see anything wrong with a "forced-matching" luger ?
Yes _____ No ____

2. Have you, at anytime in your luger collecting, replaced luger parts to inact a forced-match pistol ?
Yes _____ No _____

3. Would you consider selling a luger that you knew (and/or possibly did yourself...) was forced-matched to a buyer and not inform the buyer of the forced-match ?
Yes _____ No _____

4. Do you consider a forced-match luger "historically correct" ?
Yes _____ No _____

5. Do you consider a forced-match luger a "messed with" piece ?
Yes _____ No _____

6. Do you personally buy un-marked luger parts ?
Yes _____ No _____

7. Do you personally sell un-marked luger parts ?
Yes _____ No _____

8. Have you, in your collecting career, placed "new" serial numbers on a previously un-marked luger part.
Yes _____ No _____

9. Would you consider owning or do you own a luger in your collection that is all matching except for 1 or 2 un-marked parts ?
Yes _____ No _____

9. Do you consider a luger with an un-marked part still a collector piece ?
Yes _____ No _____

10. Do you consider a luger with an un-marked part merely a shooter piece ?
Yes _____ No _____

11. If you sold a luger that you know to contain a "newly numbered" un-marked part, would you inform the buyer of this condition ?
Yes _____ No _____

12. You have a luger that has a missing or broken small part. You secure an un-marked replacement. Would you place the piece on the gun in its un-marked condition ?
Yes _____ No _____

13. You have a luger that has a missing or broken small part. You secure an un-marked replacement. Would you add "new" serial numbers on the part before you placed it on the pistol ?
Yes _____ No _____

Any other questions...that other members might think of...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete - first - I got'ta ask.. Do you lie in bed at night thinking about this stuff???!!! :D

Seriously - Wes, DOK, Tom have it right. If there is a "dispute" that occurs within the classifieds - and for some stupid reason, this site were "liable" - it's my "ass"ets which pay for the costs.

However - for that - there isn't even a slim chance that the Classifieds are going to be "patrolled" by pre-qualification of use (either parts nor accessories). If I do that - what happens if someone buys a Luger that isn't right? Aren't I "more" liable, as Iâ??ve set a site precedence for â??Policingâ?�? And who exactly is going to do the pre-qualification of the ad? Hmmmmâ?¦â?¦

So - should I "police" ANY ads?? Nope.... However - if a seller or buyer doesn't live up to an agreement - then I can police them, by removing them from either the Classifieds or the site.

Let's be honest - crooks are crooks and you aren't going to change them. That doesn't mean that this site should take on the responsibility of determining who is posting for what - and determining for what reason. If the LugerForum becomes the eBay of the gun world - then I might worry (but I doubt it). In fact - some firearms discussion Forums don't even have classifieds (1911 Forum, for example), as the owner is concerned with liability.

In the meantime...

DOK - WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN????!!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Hello everybody,

I don't think anyone can say what his neighbour should or shouldn't buy. If people want to buy a patchwork or a rework or a copy or whatever else, I think it's fundamentally their business.

However, I don't think it's OK when someone sells an item as something which it isn't. To me this amounts to a fraud and should not be tolerated even though frauds are not so unusual among collecting items (not just guns). My wild guess is that many of us have bought at least one item and found out later they'd been misled by the seller (keeping essential information silent or even telling lies). Many consider this as being part of the collector's learning process. Even though this may unfortunately be true, I don't think it makes it any less unacceptable as it still amounts to a fraud!

The good thing with this forum is that people with different backgrounds and experiences on lugers meet and confront and share their views which makes it very interesting for the experienced luger friends as well as for the beginners who find a convenient way to get to information (at least I did). Because of the overall high quality of the information found in this forum (OK you may find some nonsense here and there but it never gets through without being criticised :-) ), it could give the less experienced luger friends some kind of (maybe unfounded) confidence as to the seriousness of the ads. I've though not heard that fraudulent ads have gone through this forum.

The way a forum should be run is basically the owner's business as mentioned above. I nevertheless think it would be a shame to allow a high quality forum like the LF shelter fraudulent ads and use the LF reputation for that purpose.

Now how do you tell an ad is not serious? Practically, it seems very difficult to filter them out.

Then again, a fraudulent ad is only as effective as it finds a victim. Why should we let the LF members become victims? Instead of trying to work on individual ads, it may be worth to provide specific general information on this very issue and open a new section on the LF in which members can talk about bad experiences so that each one of us doesn't have to make the same mistakes with the same crooks or be fooled by the same tricks. In other words: shift from the learning by trial and error to the learning from errors made by others.

Just my opinion.

What do you think John?

Hi,

Defining a list of reliable sources is just about as far as you can go. We use the same system in our classic car clubs. We will not post any lists of unreliable sources, just remove people from the reliable list when they turn out not to live up to the expectations, or when doubt occurs.

Of course it's difficult to define a 'reliability factor'. Imho the most important factor is the willingness of the seller to offer a money-back guarantee when the object sold doesn't meet expectations. Another factor is more difficult, it relies on the willingness of the seller to act in an honest, responsible (to the collecting community) way.

If you can do lists of crooks and honest dealers without getting into trade libel issues, it would be great for grading the professional dealers.

Nevertheless, there are also other aspects that are worth discussing, for example how to assess an item, what to be careful about, prices, etc...

I'm sure some of the LF members (not me :-) ) have great experience in dealing with collector guns and could provide an input of great value to less experienced members (like me :-) ).

Thanks John & John for the high sign... I must admit I've been a bit distracted this past year, but I log on occasionaly and just lurk.... Not being a collector (just an owner, shooter and lover) limits my input, but I enjoy reading the posts. And I always read the Admin alerts!!!

Mostly my Custom Luger Case work is keeping me really busy, plus I have started doing cases for M1911s now also, so I have tons of orders, so most of my free time goes to that. Great to see you are all still "gnawing on the bone"... That's a very good sign.

All the best....

Dok

PS: And Dunkle... when are you coming to visit... gonna stop asking soon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Always miss my friend the Doktor! GREAT CUSTOM CASES!!! Howdy Dok!

<img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Hey Dok... how did the house transition come out? Did you get the new place up and running yet? Did you actually retire? or are you still consulting on-call?

This conversation adds another dimension! When I got a 42 1940 with all matching (complete serial # on the magazine but only last two elsewhere) the thought occurred to me that people might like to find two last matching numbers for mismatched parts with the attendant odds of finding them for sale or trade.
It never occurred to me that my pistol could possibly have a forced match until I read this post.
But then the gun works with all parts--forced or not--better than any handgun I have owned for accuracy and reliability having fired 100 rounds through it (Ball and Silver Tips from Winchester, Gecco).
I can see the merit of "no restrictions" as posted by Wes, but I can also see the possibility of litigation if what is posted here is not monitored and otherwise carefully scrutinized for veracity.

A tough question for us all.

Where do I fit in? I think no restriction is best for my own interest. I feel like I am ultimately responsible for a purchase I decide to go through with. You can't control others' ethics.

I bought my Luger from a trusted gun dealer who had the trust in the original owner to sell the gun for him. It worked out for all of us.

However, there are gun dealers that live their living off of others' trust and lack of knowledge.

I still believe these types deserve occasional retribution, ergo my feeling that you treat a dealer according to his own standard.

John St

I have a 1918 Erfurt with a nonmatching bolt, firing pin and magazine. I post a request for a bolt with 05, a firing pin with 05, and a magazine with 05. I get the three parts from three different folks. The firing pin has 05 on it. The seller of the bolt stamps 05 on it but I don't know it. And I swap out the magazine bottom for one with an 05. Does that now mean I have an all matching gun?

rk

That is the moral question RK.

I say hell no! But then, some can live with it and others can't live with the morality of cheating.

Now to be honest, if it was just a firing pin, then a couple of guys who I know say its okay, as that part frequently broke anyway...

Ed

Brad, try this from the links and resources area:

http://www.centercustomcases.com/

Ed

Hi Brad,

Ed beat me to the punch... (Thanks Ed)

Dok (aka Les Center) :D

I have no problem with the above description of 'Forced Matches' as long as the match does not constitute an alteration. If an original and correct magazine bottom is put on an original and correct spine, then OK. If an original and correct side plate with the correct two digit number is put on a luger, then that is OK too.

But if someone physically alters a piece than that is NOT OK. Say someone shaves the bottom of a magazine and reapplies a new number in order to have a matching magazine. But the forum can not regulate that. The buyer is the one who must reject that part. That is why there must be an inspection period given by the seller. But the forum can't force that either.

What the forum can reject are things, like dies, that would allow the opportunity to alter parts. For instance, there is currently a die out there to put a proofmark on an artillery stock. This gives the false impression that the stock is an expesive original. The recent discussion of fake navy rear toggles exposed a market on this forum. Advertising the sale of these toggles should not be allowed unless the seller clearly marks that part as a repro so that it can easily be distinguished from an original. We should chastise anyone who will put any date desired on a repro hoster in order to misrepresent that holster.

The NAPCA often exposes these 'cottage industries' and we should feel free to do it too. We should reject ads for these 'cottage industries' whether the ads are from the companies or from individuals.
Big Norm

I believe that this forum's discussion of the Navy Toggle/Sight that is being reproduced in Germany is exactly that... Exposure of the existance of reproduction parts... and comparisons of those repro parts with known genuine examples...

There are clear indications that these toggles are being reproduced with modern equipment, but that they do not exactly reproduce the original parts... at least that is my impression so far.

In this respect, the forum has provided a service to the collecting community...

The Lugerforum does not accept any type of commercial advertising... parts and accessories get bought, traded and sold here simply as a service... buyers must perform their own due diligence in anything that they buy...

Announcing the existence of these new parts is not much different that announcing the existence of a new Luger book...

An example of my point: Tom Heller (Lugerdoc)is one of the vendors of both NEW (and used) luger parts that are made in Germany... and his parts make it possible for Lugers that get used to live longer lives...
The "misuse" of reproduction parts to misrepresent a collectible Luger no more makes Tom or vendors like him responsible for the misrepresentation that the gun companies are liable for the misuse and illegal use of their firearms...

Consequently, the Lugerforum is not liable for ANYTHING purchased through the classified services that it offers any more than a newspaper is for things sold via their classified ads...

Lots of our members, including myself would love to have a Navy Luger shooter "look-a-like" and these sights can make that possible...

I'll bet that if the maker of these toggles would produce them in stainless steel, that the owner's of Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO and the newest name for the SS Lugers would scramble to have their guns fitted for this new accessory along with a 6 inch barrel...

Caveat Emptor... the collector's best advice...know what you are buying or don't risk your money...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dok:
<strong>PS: And Dunkle... when are you coming to visit... gonna stop asking soon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hmmmm... You asking me or my "better half"???? She's packed and ready... You know me - I'm an old guy.. I need to plan for years - and never do what I was planning to begin with.. It's a by-product of CRS... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Seriously - we are FINALLY planning a vacation for this fall - rather then just me going away alone to Europe or on a business trip... You going to be around???? Your country is the one we fell in love with - it is beautiful.....

"Lots of our members, including myself would love to have a Navy Luger shooter "look-a-like" and these sights can make that possible..."

John Sabato,
this is the one and only problem I have with you and another individual. Outside of that, both of you are just super guys.
Big Norm

You can not regulate morality; government has been attempting to do that through out the ages setting standards on what behavior is and isnâ??t acceptable. As soon you set standards or criteria for the ads, then you have to have someone police the ads. If someone is policing the ads and finds a violation, you have to determine what the proper corrective measure isâ?¦and on and on and on.

I collect lugers because itâ??s a hobby and I enjoy the research that goes into collecting. That research includes not only the historical aspect of the weapon itself, but also the reputation as to the integrity of the seller.

I am proud to say, (although I have not met many of you personally), I feel that most of the members of this forum are honest caring people, who like me have a genuine interest in expanding the knowledge base about lugers and gun collecting in general. If you didnâ??t you wouldnâ??t participate in the forum to start with.

Like most of you I too, buy sell and trade parts and I see nothing morality wrong with replacing a correct numbered broken firing pin, hold open etcâ?¦on a matching gun in order to maintain itâ??s matching status. However I do believe like Big Norm and others, that is out right fraud to alter parts in order to achieve that status.

Many people change the main spring on a matching gun in order enhance its reliability, ask yourself does that gun no longer have â??All Matching â?� status ? would it be a fraud to sell the gun as all matching ?

I personally donâ??t think so, but some others may feel differently. I donâ??t think the forum should regulate the ads because when you start to regulate, you also start to limit the free exchange of ideas and that what makes this forum such a great place to start with.

My $0.02

Jim

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by jamese:
<strong>I see nothing morality wrong with replacing a correct numbered broken firing pin, hold open etc…on a matching gun in order to maintain it’s matching status. However I do believe like Big Norm and others, that is out right fraud to alter parts in order to achieve that status.

Many people change the main spring on a matching gun in order enhance its reliability, ask yourself does that gun no longer have “All Matching ” status ? would it be a fraud to sell the gun as all matching ?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Jim,

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I find that I must take issue with your conclusions.

I have nothing to say about the morality of the circumstance. It is a simple, objective fact that a Luger with force-matched parts is no longer a matching gun. It does not have the parts it originally came with, and it will never again be authentically complete. Such replacement is in itself an alteration.

Willfully changing a part such as the recoil spring may not literally change its "all matching" status (definable and verifiable by the existence of serial numbers), but it certainly reduces the pistol's authenticity. And yes, depending on the circumstances of the sale, misrepresenting such a Luger as completely authentic could be construed as fraud.

--Dwight

Dwight,
While I respect and understand your position, and I agree that a person who replaces a part with a correct numbered part should tell the purchaser that the part has been replaced, but in the real world that doesnâ??t happen very often. If a seller does tell the buyer that a part has been replaced, Iâ??m sure when the gun is re-sold that information would most likely be omitted.

I have to ask you a question...... when buying a gun from a known respected dealer or any trusted collector and the gun is â??All Matchingâ?� how does the dealer know if the person they procured the gun from didnâ??t change the a broken firing pin etcâ?¦with the correct numbered matching pin or any other correct matching part for that mater ? I donâ??t think the dealer committed a fraud, because they unknowingly sold a gun as â??matching originalâ?� and if a person re-sells the gun, they unknowingly sell it as a â??matching originalâ?� and so the misrepresentation continues.

My point is thatâ?¦even you can not with certainty say that all the guns in your safe are â??original matchingâ?� unless you ordered the gun from the factory yourself, and it arrived in a sealed box.

In my opinion your one of the most knowledgeable and respected people on this forum. I read, follow and agree with your posts 99.9% of the time. On this issue I think that we both agree in theory that anyone who changes a gun in any way should pass that information on, but those that fail short of this standard I donâ??t think are guilty of fraud.

Sorry for the rambling on��nuff said

Jim

The replacement of parts with original and appropiately numbered parts would be impossible to police by a volunter group of monitors. But on a recent discussion on a navy toggle frightened a number of navy Luger collecters who have large amounts of money invested in original navy Lugers. The good news is that it is possible to distinguish the difference between an original and a counterfeit. The bad news is that I often travel 3 plus hours to a gun show and I am not at my mental best. On the forum, with my shoeless feet on my desk and an adult beverage in my hands, I was able to see the difference in two of the three differences. At a gun show, I may be able to see the checkering differences on the toggle. The forum sought and received permission to post pictures of these toggles. So now the German guy selling these toggles knows about this forum and may try to sell these toggles in the classified section of the forum. Other people on this forum may try to purchase, say twenty or more, of these toggles and sell them on the forum. I have been at gun shows where the seller got very mad at me when I showed him that his gun was altered.

I have seen Luger extractors that were cast instead of machined. Very difficult for a normal guy to tell the difference between the two. I am sure that the cast extractors would not have the same life expectancy as an original machined part.

"Cottage industry" individuals advertize that they have dies to reproduce ANY markings on ANY Luger. Actually, any decent machinist can do this. Should the forum help these counterfeiters profit on their evil deeds by allowing adverizing in the clasified section?

ON BOLSTERING
Many guys with children in the house has removed the side plate for safety sake from a prized Luger. The guy dies and the relatives don't know what the side plate is and throw it away. Is that prized Luger now junk because the side plate was replaced with an original side plate with the same two digit serial number?

A guy disassembles a prized and expensive navy Luger for cleaning. The rear hunge pin falls out and rolls into the furnace hot air duct. Is that expensive navy Luger now trash because it now has an original navy rear hinge pin bought on Ebay?

Its true that the forum can not edit all posts in the classified section. It is a valuable and free resource available for our members. But even newspapers edit their classified section. Many will not advertize guns for sale. I believe that all will not advertize meetings for the Klu Klux Klan. We should not allow blatant counterfeiters to cheapen our expensive and enjoyable hobby.
Big Norm

Big Norm, I imagine that if "blatant" advertising appeared on the classified section that one of the moderators would just delete it, afterall, there is no such thing as First Amendment Rights on a private forum.

Sometimes I am sure I also use this type of forum moderation also:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> with my shoeless feet on my desk and an adult beverage in my hands... :D :D </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So as long as I am paid by John D., I can continue to work diligently as a moderator...

BTW, here is my http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/2cents.jpg (which happens to be my yearly payment also :D )

Ed,
I'm glad to hear of your recent raise. Your contributions to the forum is well worth each penny. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Big Norm <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />

Hey Big Norm,

I'm thinking about rasing his "salary" next year... So please, please - do tell him his worth every penny - I only have a few pennies to give out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

Hey John D, don't give Ed a big head with fat city pay raises. He is a real great guy just the way he is. I hear that last year he finally made the last payment on his 1966 Mustang. Maybe you could just extend his stock options?
Big Norm

Aktualy living so near the IdAhow border, I were forced to re-finanse my car for another 10 years, :D

Ed