Recent California Horror story..True!
 

A young man and his family, wife, kid, and two dogs (Best friends of one of my workers) was passing thru Ca. on his way to report for duty in Washington state, everything he owned in an open trailer.... Just outside of LA, his trailer went out of control, flipping his explorer, and rolling all down an embankment... Thank God, no one was injured, but he knew the situation was bad. When invesitgating officers discovered his gun collection, they confiscated all, pre ban AR 15, .50 cal bolt action. K98k, hunting rifles and shotguns, pistols, all! Probably $15 to $20K worth of weapons, no list,no receipt, no return, the sherrif informed him they're just gone for good.... impounded his trailer for $500 & $50 a day for eveyday after....only had insurance on the vehicle.... I gave my worker the day off, and gas, to go to LA and get his friend and family...they are back in Phoenix right now, and they are just crushed, ...both physically, and mentally...Whats wrong with this picture??? What the hell is wrong with those people over there? Any ideas as to what action if any can be taken to recover his guns?? California sucks! till....later...GT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

I would imagine there are some laws for actual transport of firearms and he should sue.

Plus sue for mental anguish etc.

I will have gun insurance before I travel...

Ed

One problem is that he was taking an AR15 and a .50 cal. rifle through Kalifornia. Also he probably had high capacity mags and maybe other state-banned "assault weapons". I am not sure but I believe Kalifornia may have a ban on .50's. I know they have a ban on bringing non-registered AR15's, AW's, and high cap mags into their little chunk of communist paradise. Whether they have any provision for transporting weapons through the state enroute elsewhere or not, I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, given their other leanings.
John

I am very VERY sorry, as a Kalifornia resident it does indeed suck. Like it or not the law does not allow for anything "AR"...I had too get rid of by Colt 6601. Also had too remove pre-ban flash suppressor from my M1A, or become a felon. But K98k and hunting rifles and handguns are still allowed but for how long. Seems too me a very over zelious deputy, especially since it was a single car accident, I assume no liquor was involved?. Do you care too tell me what county it happened in, I know a few Kern and San Bernardino counties sheriffs come through my gun smith business, and a few CHP I know well, at best perhaps I could just ask how he goes about recovering his guns. I hope he has a picture of the AR, my guess is he'll never see it again, but if I can I'll try and help

JR, I infer from your post that this individual is in the military (report for duty) is this correct? If so if he can get the military to state that he was 'on duty' for the purpose of responding to official orders to relocate, he just might have a chance of getting the firearms back. The KA firearms codes state essentially that the carrying or transportation of firearms within or thru the state by members of the military 'while on duty' are exempt from most of the regulations. Might be a long shot but worth a try. I recommend that he immediately contact the State Attorney General's office in Sacramento and file a complaint along with all the pertinent info. If he is in the military he will also have the use of free legal advise. Nearly all of the KA code pertains to transportation of firearms capable of being concealed on the person, in this case they must be locked in a container. The weapons you mentioned do not fit that category. You (he) can get a federal publication which has all of the different state published firearms ordinances, its ATF P 5300.5 available from the BATF at ATF Distribution Center, P.O. Box 5950, Springfield, VA 22150-5950, phone 703-455-7801. My gut feeling is that they are gone already, went home with the 'capturing' police officer, and probably not even officially reported.

Hi to all! Thanks for the kind offer policeluger, and you are correct Herb.. he does have some chance (actually, chances for recovery look good as of right now) with the military, I found this out right after I posted the first note! They are exploring that option right now! BUT, if it happen to someone not in the service... you would be just #*&$ out of luck!!! It is a great example of just how easy you can lose all your guns! I will keep all informed.... It's still not right though&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; till....later....GT

In California any AR15 sytle weapons are illegal. .50 caliber rifles and handguns are not yet illegal.

California is run by liberals who want to ban all gun and are now giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens. Oh I forgot, they're not Liberal they're Progressive.

Jr, glad to hear that he has a chance, if he was in an official leave status he should have his orders amended to show 'departing official leave status as of "date, time" and entering official travel status and then back into leave status after reporting to his new duty station, this will resolve any legal question of his 'official' status if it is brought up, particularily if the confiscated firearms somehow 'disappear' and the state has to show cause or pay for them. Let this be a lesson to the members of this forum, if you are transporting firearms, avoid Kalifornia even if it means a long detour. I lived in that hell-hole for 27 years, and was expecting the KAstapo to knock on my door at any time as I have a FFL and my back yard shared a fence with a grade school, not a good situation.

Perhaps the poor fellow could enlist the help of the NRA and spotlight this incident and the "officer" that took his guns.

They also might have some ideas that none of us have thought of.

Worth the effort I would think. Even if he is fortunate enough to recover his guns, it would make for a good story and possibly prevent the same thing from happening to someone else.

It won't ever happen to me because I have no desire to ever enter the Republic of K. Things like that don't happen in Kentucky. I guess we have the most liberal gun laws in the country. It is, however frowned on if you use one to shoot someone. If, however, that someone was from Kalifornia, it might be considered justifiable. Would be if I was a juror.

I wish him the best of luck in his efforts.

Joe Hill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by colcolombo:
<strong>Perhaps the poor fellow could enlist the help of the NRA and spotlight this incident and the "officer" that took his guns. Joe Hill</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Checking with the NRA would be a good beginning. As I recall, a federal law was passed some 15 or 20 years ago that provides for safe transport of privately (civilian as well as military) owned guns through all states as long as the owner has a legal reason to do so. As federal law is superior to state law, the gun owner may have reason to sue the state of California and the officer(s) involved. While I don't ordinarily like the idea of suing LEO's who are doing their jobs, there are instances where they prey on innocent people and depend upon their position to insulate them from repercussion. This, IMO, is one of those times.

Doubs, right on, here is the interpretation
FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS

A provision of federal law serves as a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel.

Notwithstanding any state or local law, a person shall be entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm if the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other then the glove compartment or console. Necessary stops, e.g., gasoline and rest, seem permissible.

Herb and Doubs,

You are right, I used to have occasion to pass from PA through NY to CT and had to face this problem. I had residences in both PA and CT and had CCWs in both states but NY is even worse than KAL. I knew I had to pass through NY directly, preferably without stopping and prayed that I wouldn't get into an accident. The guy who lost his hardware should talk to the NRA (not sure who, but probably someone in ILA) to find a lawyer ASAP who is familiar with KAL and the correct federal law to get the guns back.

An article concerning the 1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act,the interstate transportation of firearms is discussed near the end of the article.

http://www.guncite.com/journals/hardfopa.html

Good Luck!

Herb,
As a former Amry 82nd Airborne infantry paratrooper and current law enforcement Officer I take great offense in your statement that a fellow Officer would take the guns and in your words "My gut feeling is that they are gone already, went home with the 'capturing' police officer, and probably not even officially reported". This is complete bull@%$#. No Ar-15 is worth my job. Nothing would be done that the law does not mandate and I can guarantee you that no Officer that I work with or know would step on your rights as per the 2nd amendment. Stop blaming the soldiers when you should be blaming the politicians. This is a law that was passed in California, however sad, the person should have read the law before transporting firearms actross state lines and taken appropiate steps. I do hope that he gets the weapons back, but he should have known this was possibility. Officers are not trying to steal your guns and are not making a profit from doing so.

Jim

Jim, I agree in principle with what you said, but I highly doubt the law states taking these:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">K98k, hunting rifles and shotguns, pistols, all!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">In an official move, whether military or civilian, I am pretty sure that you are authorized to transport your own weapons through the state, with "assault weapons" probably not included in this statement.

Ed
Current FOP and retired US Army Military Police

Ed,
I won't pretend to know California law. But in Washington, If I were to take someone's guns it would be for a criminal matter. I would not just take certain guns from someone I suspected of being a criminal, I would take them all. The underlying problem here is the mistrust and resentment of some people toward the Police. Almost everyone I serve with is ex-military and has shed blood for the United States, in one country or another. It just makes me mad when someone believes that we (the police) are out to steal their guns and somehow have our own private agenda. Most of us have fought to defend the vary rights they are complaining about. If it were up to me guns would only be in the hands of honest people, however honest people are not always easy to identify on the street.

Jim

Jim,
I hate to think that I will get you mad, but I could name numerous instances where police, other legal officers of the law, and, sometimes, just plain government workers have intimidated people who they felt knew little about law and confiscated goods for their personal use. Newspapers are filled with many examples of sexual as well as drug related instances of this. But it also occurs in other, less publicized, areas. You sound like an officer who is worth his weight in gold because of your honesty. God bless you if you are. But there are many, many government agents (broadly defined) who are more than willing to take advantage of the unknowing and intimidated. That is why we have defense attorneys who are quite wealthy and quite busy. We also have many judges who are either corrupt, political or actually ignorant of the law. Its a big country and it takes many different types of people to fill our bloated and numerous bureaucracies. And yes, it does take time and money to prove that a government worker is wrong. Some people just don't have a lot of either and just give up.
Big Norm

I second Big Norm. I too have been abused by officers of the law, especially where firearms are concerned. I do not think it was for personal use, but I have had a firearm illegally confiscated. I went through a long drawn out fight to get it back. There are quite a few in offical positions who seem to think the law means whatever they want it to mean rather than what it actually says. (Now that I think of it, that sounds like a fair description of a some so called "liberals".)

Cops are like anybody else, there are good ones, mediocre ones, and bad ones. The proportions seem to vary according to locality.

The LAPD must need more firepower, so the next time two guys shoot up their town they don’t go through the same ignominy on national TV. Maybe the guy accidentally left a loaded gun in the trailer. Oregon has this prohibition too, one of the few non-buying gun control laws of note. When I was a kid, I wasn’t even aware of this one for many years. I used to chuck a fully loaded K into the backseat of my VW (I spaced the trunk law too) and drive up into the hills. This seems innocuous, but for the fact that I used to park right next to the home of a county sheriff close to the shooting area. (I asked him politely for permission to park there.) Countless times I whipped out a fully loaded rifle from the backseat and slinged it right in front of his house and police cruiser. I guess he must not have seen me doing this.

BBQJPW, You can take offense at anything I say if you wish, however as I stated I lived in CA for 27 years, during a portion of that time I was in the National Guard and served with Deputy Sheriffs, city police, CHP and others. I have heard many of thier stories about confiscating weapons or just stealing them if the person is drunk and passed out on one of the river levees. My son had a new pistol taken from him during a random stop, he was returning home from the range and had the pistol, unloaded, under the seat, gone, he never got it back. So you take offense, I know better.

Gentlemen,

We can discuss nearly ANY topic with strong opinions on this forum... but let's keep it on the civil side please... before this thread gets out of hand and I am forced to nuke it...

Thanks... the admin staff...

John,

You're the man but I disagree with you.

I haven't seen anything so far that is "uncivil" and I think this thread is healthy for all, pro or con.

But, as Jerry Burney says so often, "But that's just me."

I gave the Kentucky State Police 33 years so I can relate to all that has been said and so far, I have kept my opinion to myself other than to recommend contacting the NRA. And believe me, it is hard for ME to keep quiet on an issue that I have strong feelings for. But, if you "nuke" the thread, I guess history will show that I never responded.

Best regards to you,

Joe Hill

Joe,

I guess I should have said LOCK the thread... you are right... things haven't gotten strong enough to nuke it just yet, but from my experience it was headed that way... Just trying to head off trouble... we have enough to worry about these days without squabbling amongst friends...

have a great weekend.

This direction is nothing new, just hasn't come up here before. It has shifted from California State law enforcement that obviously legally confisticated firearms (as did the legal authority in Germany in 1938) and possible remedies to an attack on police who may or may not have taken weapons illegally. Then follows the situations presented of perceived illegal actions and righteous defense by those who deny it would happen. What it shows me is a basic distrust that many gunowners have of law enforcement.The common links are the same: firearms, protection, law and order, defense of home and property. But the the flash point is that one group has the authority to control the other based on laws which are not seeen as legitimate. Law enforcement sees a man with a gun as a threat to society and and person. Disturbing part is that many gunowners are seeing law enforcement as the same.

rk

Gentlemen, my point is this. I fully agree that their are some bad officers out there and that corruption is real in some areas. What I have a problem with is that this person went into California with illegal weapons, at least in California. Knowingly or not he broke the law of California. Whether that law is correct or just is irrelevant. Ignorance is not a defense. To immediately assume that based on the driver's actions the police are immediately wrong and corrupt for enforcing the law is ludicrous. I do hope the person gets his weapons back, but it was a result of his own decisions that this situation developed.

Federal law supercedes state law. Look at Barry's link. I think it is obvious the traveler was legally in the clear if he was passing through KAL.

However, obviously it isn't too smart to travel into (or through) an area with prohibited weapons. Of course, I live a long way away but one should avoid KAL whenever possible.

Well, as John hasn't locked the thread yet, I am preparing a response to BBGJPW but I want to get it right before I post it so stand by. I don't want to "squabble" with anyone. I just have some thoughts.

JH

James (BBGJPW) in Everette, WA. and the rest of forum members that responded above. Please don't take offense at the remarks above. No one has accused you personally of being anything other than a first class police officer. I have no doubt that this is the case. I further see you as a young man in his twentys with less than five years service. You remind me of me when I started out at an early age. My attitude then was that either you were right or you were wrong. There was no middle ground. As I grew older, I realized that there were shades of grey moving in between the black and white. You often hear that ignorance of the law is no excuse but I take exception to that. In many cases, if I felt that the person, while in violation, had no idea or INTENT to break the law, I cautioned and warned them of their mistake and let them go on their way. Of course, I am not talking about felonys.

Now, to the Kalifornia case, here is what really bothers me as an officer. First, ALL his weapons were taken as opposed to just the AR-15, 50 cal. and whatever else was alleged to be illegal. He took them all. Nothing I read above indicates he was arrested or charged with any offense. Why was he not charged? Was there a police report made of the confiscation? An inventory? Was he given a receipt with serials for what was confiscated? If this incident violated Kalifornia law, why wasn't he arrested? I have to agree that FROM WHAT I KNOW this smells to high heaven. I hope the victim had serials on all his weapons for verification.

We have rotten police all over the country in all areas of law enforcement from a lowly county constable to the head of the FBI. J. Edgar Hoover should have been indicted on multiple felonys but..........well you know why he wasn't.

So, to wind this up, let me say what I would have done had I been called to his accident. I would have called him a tow truck and another truck to load up his belongings. My vision is not so good sometime so I doubt I would have seen the weapons.
I would have further made arrangements to store his personal property in a secure place till he could claim it and would have taken the family to a decent motel and pointed out a restaurant until they could get their wits together and dispose of their property. When you look at a husband, wife, child and dog, it is pretty apparent they are not "criminals" and have no criminal intent.
Under other circumstances, I might have acted differently.

So, James, as I said when I started, no one on this forum has anything but the highest esteem for you and your values. But, don't be so quick to defend your fellow officers because there are
quite a few out there that don't share your values. That, my friend, is known as REALITY.
I wish you nothing but the best in your career and I commend you but remember, there are shades of gray in your line of work.

Best regards to you,

Joe Hill
Kentucky State Police (Ret'd)
12 years as road trooper
21 years in criminal investigation
Last 13 years in glorious retirement

Joe,

California could use a few good officers like you. California hires based on the color of your skin and your sexual preference, not on your qualifications or your character. Has anyone ever heard of the LAPD's Rampart division?

Tracyp,

Thanks for the kind words. I definitely wouldn't qualify for the job. I have seen tales of the Rampart Division.
Did you see the movie "L. A. Confidential"? Really scary. But then there was Kim.

Someone mentioned the fiasco shootout of that bank robbery in LA. I have seen it several times and I kept wishing I was there on a second floor with my BAR 30.06. I believe I could have ended it with two well placed head shots. The targets weren't 50 yards apart at times. Or....a well placed load of 00B fired at their feet under one of the patrol cars. Well, nobody asked me.

Just my opinion of course.

Joe (Easy John S. We are getting a little off subject but it is good for all who want to "vent" a bit and this is a "General Discussion Forum".
Did someone mention "LUGERS".

Joe

Check your private messages Joe.

I cannot vouch for California, but here in the "Cabbage Patch State" the Victoria Police pose a significant threat to the lawful private ownership of firearms. A few years ago the Victorian "Registrar of Firearms" was quoted in the daily papers here saying "every firearms handed in is to the betterment of society"

I note that the fellow who had his arms confiscated recieved no receipt for those arms? Surely that presents significant evidence of something amiss with whole situation.

If the guns were mine, I would be taking all possible legal action to ensure their safe return, I would also be seeking compensation for the emotional trauma, and, if their had been wrong doing on the part of the officer who initiated the whole sorry saga, I would be demanding his removal from his employment.

With regard to the current "war" on the private ownership of firearms our policy should be simply "You're either with us or against us, and we don't take prisoners!"
Just my opinion!

Federal law supersedes Kalifornia law. Period. The police are in illegal possesion of this guy's firearms. Any bets on whether or not they are prosecuted? They have done this under color of authority, another crime, Same bet? Since there is no reciept or any evidence of procedure they cannot claim any immunity on grounds that it was in the line of duty. Same bet?

Our friend may get his stuff back, but I WILL bet it will only be after a long drawn out legal hassel that will run up a big lawyer's bill. But I for one would be willing to toss in a couple of bucks for that. Maybe we out to do just a tad less ranting and take time to pass the hat.

I would kick in a few bucks, let us know. In the meantime, has anybody really contacted the NRA with the specific facts? Go to MYNRA.com and look for links or call 800-392-8683 and ask for a contact. The NRA has lots of resources and maybe a pro bono lawyer to suggest in KAL.

hello to all! I talked directly to the young man yesterday, and the military has stepped in on his behalf, and he believes that he will recover all his guns... they will be shipped to his next reporting station of duty from a CA. Law enforcement agency, (I suspect sherriffs office) directly to the military! As understood by him, he could not recover his guns personally from the state, under any circumstances! He said the Army really stepped up to the plate on this deal, and are helping him same as family! I am impressed by the depth of this thread.... it is an eye opener for many of us that believed this type of thing couldn't happen..... Although the CA authorities were not outwardly mean to this young man, they certainly were cold and uncarring..... Where I'm from origionally, S. Dak, theres a good chance one of the officers would have taken you to a shelter area, or perhaps even put you up for the night! I know several that would... they sure a hell wouldn't convescate your weapons.... I will continue to post information as it becomes available... Thanks to all for their help and concern...till...later...GT

GT,

Here in WV where I'm visiting, LE (at least the sheriffs--I've met and talked with two of them) seem to be very helpful if you wear a white hat. I believe the unfortunate traveler would have been treated very well here. If he could prove need and military affiliation they would probably even lend him an old tommy gun (they aren't using it).

Anyway, let us know how it turns out.

AGE,

Am I missing something? I don't understand your statement "if you wear a white hat".

Could you clarify that? Perhaps it's an expresson I have not heard.

Thanks,

Joe

In July, my family and I took a driving vacation to the Sonoma Coast region of Kalif. I was fully aware of the gun laws of that state. I weighed the value of my wife and daughters' safety against the penalties for non-compliance of their gun laws.
I loaded up my Smith/Wesson with bullets and placed it in the glove compartment of my vehicle.
At times you must defy the law. Life is too long to live with the consequences of compliance. Life is also too short to die because of the consequences of compliance.
Laws are merely suggestions or guidelines of how you should live your life. How you actually conduct yourself is solely your responsibility. If you or yours are harmed or die because of compliance of the law, you are responsible, not the law. It was your choice. You cannot shirk responsibility.
That is what upsets the police. They are not the absolute, final authority and power.
Upset George III also!

Colcolumbo, it's an old expression that came about because of the old western movies, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, Tom Mix and other 'good guys' always wore white cowboy hats and the 'bad guys' always wore black cowboy hats. I am really glad to hear that our KA traveler has a good chance of getting his weapons back with the help of the Army, please keep us posted on this situation JR.

Wes.

I agree with you 100%. As long as the gun is in a locked glove compartment, the police have no authority to search it except upon PROBABLE CAUSE to believe the glove box contains contraband. A favorite trick of some officers is to ask you to voluntarily search your car. This is no more than a fishing expedition. Just say "No, I don't believe so." Some will come back at you with, "Well we can always get a search warrant hoping this will make you relent. Just say, "Sir I am not going to consent to a search." "If you have probable cause to search my car, I will wait here till you get the warrant". At this point, if you relent, appellate courts have held that the permission granted in lieu of the search warrant was a coerced permission and any fruits of the search are not admissable. So, just say "NO" unless they produce a search warrant. Be sure and read the affidavit for the warrant and find out what the probable cause was. That should be a hoot!!!

Herb,

Thanks for clearing up the white hat. What astounded me was you remember Tom Mix. Did you ever send off a box top and watch the mailbox for your Tom Mix Secret Code Ring??????

Joe