Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

I have read all the posting on the numbering of the rear connecting. I hope we can get some more input on this from some of the more knowledgeable Forum members.


I have observed the later Mauser Lugers that have matching pins and also some that are collector grade Lugers that do not have a numbered pin. From my readings on Lugers, I have read that some were numbered and some were not numbered. Why this happened I don't know. In the previous posting we seem to have a difference of opinion. I do know that the DWM and Erfurt Lugers should have a numbered pin. How about some help to solve this question.


Marvin

Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

Hello Marvin,

You are mistaken about the DWM and Erfurt Lugers having the numbered rear connecting pins. These were NOT numbered on ALL of the original issued guns, but were numbered on the reworks of the 1930's.


From your post you say that you have seen Late Mauser Lugers with and without the numbered pins, but you do not tell us the variation. You can refer to my previous post on Mausers, but ALL military Mauser Lugers had the rear connecting pin numbered when they left the factory. If they do not, then they have been replaced. Possibly some of the Commercial and really late two digit Banners could have an un-marked pin. The only people that I have ever heard this "theory" about the pin being either numbered or not, were the guys who had a Luger with a blank pin that were trying to sell it as all matching.


Perhaps "some of the more knowledgeable forum members", (which apparently I am not), can give you the answer you're looking for!

Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

Marvin, I have tried to find a reference of an author that would bring some light to the subject. Unfortunately I couldn't locate one, but I'll keep looking. I guess for now I can only report that I have what I will call "MY Collectable Lugers", Military Mausers ranging from K-Dates to 42 byfs and they all have Main Toggle Pins numbered to the pistol. Six of these are 1941 and 1942. Then, I would add my own feelings that I would not own what I consider a "MY Collectable Luger" without that pin being matched to the pistol. Now that's MY definition. Others may feel that field or armourers replacement parts make the pistol collectable. My argument would be, was it replaced in 1940 or 1990? The answer is has to be "I don't know"!!

FURTHER, I DON'T WANT TO START ANOTHER BUNCH OF POSTS ON WHAT IS A COLLECTABLE !!!! PLEASE that's why I said "My Collectable Lugers"

Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

Bill and Frank,


I wish I could remember where I read this about the pins on Mauser Lugers with some being numbered and some not. Thanks for your input on this and I hope someone can provide some additionbal details to this. Of the Nazi era Lugers I have, the pins are numbered on all except one and it is a97% condition pistol. I appreciate your remarks and I will take better note of this when looking at Mauser Lugers.


Frank, don't stop your research for a noted Luger expert to help us. This is a good string!


Marvin

Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

Bill;


I don't think Marvin intended any slur on your knowledge level when he referred to "help from the more knowledgeable forum members"! I suspect it was just a bad choice of phrasing and what he is hoping for is that someone will support his viewpoint. I for one agree with your views regarding connecting pin markings. Hopefully Marvin will remember where he obtained his info.


This forum has always had a very high level of respect for other peoples opinions, as well as a very knowledgeable and informed membership and that is what keeps me coming back. I hope we can continue to respect each other in the future, and I guess we all slip up sometimes in our communications. It's human nature! I know if I offend someone unduly, I'm quick to apologize and set it straight. Life is too short to waste it in negativity. Here I go rambling on again...so I will apologize on that point and move on..


Regards to all.

Waste Of Time!
 

Marvin,

Not to offend you, but if you've read it, it must be true, as everything in them there books is correct. Perhaps some of "the big boys" or "some more knowledgeabe experts" can assure you what the correct answer is. What good does it do to post an answer if you have to have Still, Shattuck, Simpson, or someone else confirm everything. Sorry I wasted your time! I guess observations of my 80 plus Mausers do not lend enough knowledge to assure you what the correct answer is. I personally think it would be best if you just called one of the "big boys" and received the answer directly from them. If you need the numbers of any of the three mentioned above, I'd be happy to provide them to you. Also, thanks for sharing the knowledge that All DWM and Erfurts have a numbered rear connectiong pin, as I guess all 25 of mine are bogus. You must of read that somewhere also?

Re: Waste Of Time!
 

I have to agree that DWM didn't and Mauser did. Mauser made so many varitations that anything is possible on their commercial or contract pistols, but I believe that their military pistols always had numbered pins.

You know bill...
 

the tone of your posts sounds like a spoilt child. It's as though if someone questions your opinion they need to be chided. Your haughty attitutude is NOT appreciated. If you can't discuss a difference of opinion like adults, without degrading the posts with inuendo and verbal lashings, then maybe you shouldn't reply to posts that you consider "beneath you".


We're all just trying to have a good time, share some information, and expand our knowledge of Lugers. So maybe Marvin *is* wrong? There's a better way to show him the error of his ways than the approach you take. That only guarantees that you promote bad feelings and ill-will.


Let's grow up guys... and act like the adults we profess to be.


Dok

Re: Waste Of Time!
 

Bill,


I meant no offense to your knowledge and I apoligize if it came across that way. I was stating something I remember reading at some point. All I was trying to accomplish with the experts was hoping someone could provide some detail from a reliable printed reference material. I was only stating my opinion and I fully RESPECT anyones opinion. I may be wrong in my statement; that is why I wanted to continue this string to get others to contribute their experience and knowledge. And yes, I do like confirmation when it is agreed that the source is correct and I also have access to the "big boys" you mentioned in addition to the "big boys" in Europe.


I have always stated on this Forum that I am not an expert and will never claim to be one. The statement about the DWM and Erfurts was in error, but I thought it was correct as I do have a DWM WWI Luger with a numbered pin adn the numbers ARE the same as the pistol.


I certainly learn from this ond other Forums, but I also have a number of books which I read and learn also. Sorry to have offended you!


Marvin

Re: You know Dok
 

this was really none of your business. This was between Marvin and I, and getting the correct information out there. Since you consider this so one sided, and all my fault, my attitude and I will graciously hit the road. What happened to being neutral, and treating both sides the same way? The "buddy system" is alive and well here! adios

Re: Waste Of Time!
 

Marvin,

No problem, Marvin. Sorry I was sarcastic with you also. Good luck in the future!

Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

Hi Folks,


It is my belief (emphasis on the word belief) that all Lugers left the factory with numbered rear connecting pins, that these pins are a high wear item, and that unnumbered pins are field replacements. For most collectors, unnumbered pins are like mismatched magazines - so common as to be expected and with no impact on collector value.


Just my $0.02 worth, offered entirely FWIW.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Ummm - Bill...
 

Actually, DOK is the Webmaster and therefore, moderator of this Board. For example, if one has difficulties posting, wants pictures up - who do they turn to? Dok.


If the Board were to be SPAMMED - who would we turn to ban that individual and delete the posts? Again, that would be Dok...


And if you started to get unsoliceted e-mail from vendors who saw your e-mail address here - who would most turn to to track them down? Yep - Dok.. And he'd be expected to fix that problem as well by filing reports with abuse.net and the offending ISP...


And for that - Dok has every right, perhaps more so - to set the "tone" of this Board. Simply by virtue of his position as webmaster - as he is responsible for this community.


Just my $0.00002

Re: Ummm - Bill...
 

AMEN to that....and well said John!!!

It IS my business...
 

when it happens on the forum... I'm the Webmaster. I never implied it was one sided, but your posts are the ONLY ones that have a demeaning tone to them, so why should I speak to everyone when you are the offending party... take that as you will.


I don't like to see anyone drive off in a late model huff, this forum is for everyone's enjoyment, not just a few, and that means no name calling, hair pulling, and general unpleasantness. There are better ways to get the correct information out there as you put it. I took your post to be sarcastic at best, and there was no need for it.


You are a valuable and knowledgable contributor to this forum, and I would not like to see you absent from this forum. I trust you will reconsider your participation after a brief cooling off period, and we look forward to seeing you again.


Dok

Re: You know Dok
 

Bill,


Please don't take any offense with Dok's statement, he is the webmaster and I respect his opinion. We have never met, never talked over the phone. he does not know me except from the Forum. Don't leave the Forum, we need knowlegeable people like you. As far as I as I am concerned there is no "clicks" on this Forum and the webmaster just does not want any flames on this Forum and I agree with that 100%. I am OK and I hope you are OK.


Marvin

Re: It IS my business...
 

Just don't add to the problem. Be a moderator is you feel you need to be, but calling someone a "spoilt" child certainly doesn't add to the tone of the forum

Re: And Again
 

Just so as to get a few battle scars myself, I thought I�´d contribute the following: the official German Order (Zeichnung zur Vorschrift f�¼r die Stempelung der Pistole 08) was dated 1910 and lists 25 parts that were to be number stamped (the loading tool, cleaning rod and magazines were mentioned separately). The list and the drawing are reproduced in most of the Luger books. The Order was last amended in 1914 and was valid at least until then for all DWM and Erfurt Lugers. The rear toggle pin was NOT one of the parts to be number stamped. But I�´ve seen many DWM lugers of that period WITH numbered rear toggle pins (and mine are numbered too). The smaller parts of commercial Lugers were not normally numbered at all as it was not likely that parts might be interchanged. Even though DWM, Erfurt, Simson, Krieghoff and Mauser all used their own numbering systems and did their best to confuse later generations of collectors, the official 1910 Order would seem to be quite clear on the fact that a correctly â??fully numberedâ?� Luger would NOT have a number stamp on the rear toggle pin. Patrick

Re: And Again
 

Patrick,

This is the type of factual information that is needed to keep the forum on an even keel. Too many times opinions are injected into discussions with no basis in fact. If we are discussing strawed or blued small parts, and which looks better, we are merely expressing opinions. When it comes to the numbering of the link pin, this is fact and I for one thank you for the information.

I take your point...
 

but I never called him a spoilt child... I said the tone of his posts sounded like a spoilt child, it was the behaviour I was attcking not him. But being a moderator isn't enough sometimes... sometimes one or both need to be "called" on their act. I think Bill and Marvin both are valuable members of this forum, but I can't sit by and let the tone of the forum degrade with squabbling. Better a quick smack on the backside, and it's over. Thank you for not jumping into the fray.

Re: And Again
 

excellent piece of information. Does this document exist anywhere we could scan it and add it to our technical section for future reference. Thank you Patrick, for this valuable input!

Re: And Again - food for thought
 

Gentlemen let me throw in the monkey wrench! Patricks point is valid, however, kept in mind that German orders do not necessarily ALWAYS get followed. variations are possible. We must keep an open mind on this.


Factual documentation is a sound basis for judgement. Experience in dealing with articles and research records may contradict the original documentation.


I would be inclined to say that this issue in not completely proven. That being said I agree that error on the side of physical proof is always advised until proven otherwise.


Regards to all;

But Erfurt and DWM had different Interpretations
 

Both manufacturers were suppose to be controlled by the same Orders and Erfurt marked more parts and differently than DWM. It would be nice to find a reference for a specific manufacturer. From what I can tell, none were terrible consistent in the control of changes. Or maybe it just seems that way. Germans were noted for their adherence to detail. If so, why would they mark the vast majority of the pins and not all of them? I don't know that answer.

Re: And Again - food for thought
 

The discussion was whether the link pins were numbered or not, not whether they were a variation. Again, are we to take an opinion over valid documentatin? If there is documentation to the contrary, this is the time to bring it to the forum.

Re: And Again
 

FWIW I just got through looking at 25 DWM and MAUSER

manufacture ranging in condition from well worn to 98% plus.

I had never really noticed this before or paid close attention to, but all the DWM's connecting pins are UN-NUMBERED whereas all the MAUSER pins are NUMBERED. Of these,one is a 1918 DWM rework by Simson and the pin is un-numbered; another is a Sneak numbered in both the commercial and military style and the pin is numbered.


When it comes down to it, I believe that the "rules" were not always adhered to(gripstrap markings are another example of this).


Just my own opinion, offere entirely for what it is worth.


Steve M.

Again & Again
 

You�´re right- all of you. So I went back to my books.Here�´s the answer why some rear toggle pins are numbered - and some are not: a Heeres-Verordnungsblatt (Army Order Form) dated 2nd August 1931 states that changes were to be made to all issued P 08s to prevent the rear toggle pin from moving out and blocking the receiver. A second Order dated 17th March 1932 stated that the rear toggle pin was to be numbered from then on to prevent old toggle pins being used with Lugers that had been adapted. So (according to G�¶rtz), if a toggle pin is numbered on a P08 made before 1932, it proves that the pistol was still owned by the state at that time and had been retro-number stamped. If the rear toggle pin is NOT numbered on Lugers made before 1932, the pistol had either been â??privatisedâ?� or was a commercial model. All state owned Lugers issued after 1932 should have numbered rear toggle pins. So a pre 1932 Luger could be "fully numbered" WITHOUT a number on the rear pin but would have a number on the pin if it was still state owned at that time. This would also explain why the toggle pin number often is of a different size and design. Patrick

Hurray, Hurray - Thanks Patrick !!
 

Thanks for your persistence. I am glad you stuck with that research. My appreciation !!!

Thank you Patrick...
 

Now it all makes sense! I for one can now see the light!

Patrick, please illucidate as to where you found the information. What publication was it in, author, publisher, date, etc. I for one am interested.


Regards to all;

Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again
 

Ahm jes happy wen all ma Loogers hav got togel pens!

Hugh, we can always count on U (EOM)
 

Ahd be heppy jest to have Loogar...
 

Teedoor won't give mine back!!!!!

Re: DOK--Advise!
 

DOK;


You should always treat your Luger as you would your wife!

Never lend it out or you might not get it back! Ha Ha

POOR DOK !!
 

Don't forget he has one of mine up for ransom too!! BTW I think it's Luggar, not Loogar. Now this is from that reknown collector RES !!! Least that's what he tol me at dinner.

Re: I take your point...
 

Dok,

No thanks needed. You did very well by yourself.

Re: And Again
 

Patrick,


Thanks for your diligent research on this subject. Now we know the "official" German staement on the numbering of the pin.


Marvin

Re: And Again
 

Grip strap markings were field applied and did not always follow regulations, but you can bet that if they had been factory applied that they would be uniform.

Touch�© ! (EOM)
 

So I shouldn't become...
 

wunna them thar swingers... ROFL

Wahl whaddy I knooo...
 

I cain't spel nohow....

Re: And Again
 

I'll agree to that.