Buy Books, Read and Study
 

All,

It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework.

Folks, if you are going to play in this pool, you need to know how to swim pretty well-pardon the metaphor.

Let me be direct. Before anyone buys their second Luger-if they are seriously intending to be a collector-they should have a copy of every book written about Lugers in the English language.

That means 2 Kenyons, Davis, Costanzo, Bobba, 6 of Still, 3 Datig (or is it 4?)Jones, 2 Reese, 3 Walters,...well, you get the point.

You simply have to know what you are buying and there is no time-efficient way to learn it all first hand. Soooo, instead, buy the books, read and study.

After you have read them all cover to cover, made notes on the inconsistencies between one author and another or in a single author's work, and have done some field research, then it is appropriate to challenge the author's authority.

I am by no means saying everything in all of the books is absolute gospel, but its pretty damn close, and most of the errors of fact in these works, such as the infamous Costanzo mistake on the meaning of the S.D. property mark, are well known to the collecting fraternity.

So, before you buy more Lugers, buy the opportunity to acquire more Luger knowledge first. You will not regret it. And you will not appear such a neophyte in public venues such as the forum. Believe me, $800-1000 spent on books will save you tens of thousands over time.

My zwei pfennigs.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Tom, I echo what you said, get every reference you can find and study them. Yes there are inconsistancies between one author and another, and I have found this forum an excellent means to try to sort these out. My problem is trying to remember everything I have read, about the best I can do is remember where I found it and then try to do it again. I need some education on you comment about the S.D. strap marking, what does it mean? When I was collecting militaria a few years back S.D. on armbands did mean Sicherheitsdienst, or security office (Bureau) I must have missed something somewhere.

Hi Tom A and Herb,

I am only interested in Mauser Lugers and Krieghoffs. I own Still's "Third Reich Lugers" and Kenyon's "Lugers at Random". What other books do I need.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

Jimbo

Jimbo:

Krieghoff Parabellum by Randall Gibson for one.

Dear Tom A. Absolutely agree, read read all you can. Observe, be humble, there's always more to,learn. "Experts" just have more experienced "opinions". By the way, could you inform me about Costanza's S.D. error, I missed that one (always willing to learn). [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Even if only interested in certain eras of Lugers, you may very well come across a wonderful buy and wish you knew more.

So I am slowly buying all the books that I can on the diversified Luger.

After all knowledge is power.

Ed, get empowered!! Some other worth while ones are Luger Variations by Harry E. Jones, The Luger Story by John Walter, The Luger Book by John Walter, and The Luger Pistol by Datig. By the way, the recommendation for you to get Krieghoff Parabellum by Gibson is a good one, that is an excellent reference on Krieghoffs, chock full of really great close up photos of Kriegs, get that one first as they are getting hard to find.

In Costanzo's magnificent work, and yes, I am away from home station on contractor site, so I can't give you page and figure number, but he cites grip strap markings SD with Roman numerals I -VI followed by arabic numerals as being issued by the various dAmts of the Sicherheits Dienst or Heidrich's boys.

Works great as an operating hypothesis and was (and still is) widely believed to be fact.

T'ain't so.

Goertz in his wonderful work on German markings broke the code on these; they are Schupo Duesseldorf, Dusseldorf Municipal police. The Roman numeral corresponds to the administrative district and the arabic numeral is the rack number. To back up his hypothesis, he has copies of Prussian Police documents prescribing the marking and, coincidentally, all known specemins have the Police safety. To further debunk the Sicherheits Dienst theory, there are simply too many of these guns around with numbers that are too high for the size of the relatively short-lived and small S.D.

Oh, in addition to reading and studying Luger books, it helps a GREAT deal if one studies the history, politics, geography and police jurisdictional aspects of Germany. By doing that you can avoid thinking that Potsdam is in Thuringia as apparently some one did some time ago.

My Zwei pfennigs,

Tom A.

Hello Tom A,

I, too, absolutely agree with all you say.

Being one of the neophytes and having purchased over 29 various luger books; I know there is always room for improvement and more study.

I do realize the wide range of luger collectors here on the Forum.

I would think this "pool" has both a shallow end for beginners and the deep end for the experts. And length enough for guys that just want to take laps on the surface.

At some point in time a few years back, even the experts were just starting out and probably bought a "bad" luger now and then.

I am also old enough to realize that not every thing in life if absolutely "black and white". Once in a great while even an expert can be incorrect.

Take the fact of 1910 Erfurts. When one of the first ones surfaced, an expert said this could not possibly be a real Erfurt luger. A bit later the expert saw that 1910 Erfurt in person and did not only authenticate it but even offered a few big bucks to buy it. Now I understand that at least two 1910's are thought to be authentic by the experts.

Regards,

Pete...

Pete:

I do not agree that either of the two 1910 Erfurts have been "authenticated". What ever that means.

Pete
Your statement above
"Take the fact of 1910 Erfurts. When one of the first ones surfaced, an expert said this could not possibly be a real Erfurt luger."

I am very familiar with the 1910 Erfurt study presented in AUTO MAG. I dont recall any collector that contributed to this study making a statement like that. However, it was pointed out that contract restraints may have prevented production.
Jan

[quote]as being issued by the various dAmts of the Sicherheits Dienst or Heidrich's boys.<hr></blockquote>

What? LOL.

Heydrich, mein komerad,
Excuse my ham handed typing, Bitte.
I have no idea what a dAmpt is except a typo.
Tom A. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

TomA, as an observation, there must have been a hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf at that time to have so many Lugers stamped with that mark. This is not logical, so many Lugers, so many Dusseldorf rack stamps. You say that,essentially, the Dulleldorf Police outnumbered the SicherheitsDienst in total numbers, that is one BIG police force. The SicherheitsDienst were the boys that ran/guarded the concertration camps in several countries, how could have the Dusseldorf police force outnumbered them, makes no sense to me. Some observations are that the SD were also the GESTAPO. If so this would add many thousands to the number. Please explain your comments.

Herb
Herb stated "there must have been a hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf at that time to have so many Lugers stamped with that mark. This is not logical, so many Lugers, so many Dusseldorf rack stamps."

That S.D. on the front straps of (mostly double date sear safety) Lugers signifies Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf has been clearly established with period documents and luger examples in books by Still, Walters, and Gortz going back 20 years and in the pages of AUTO MAG. The magnitude of the weapons numbers is similar to that of other large city police forces.

I am not an expert on Nazi party police forces but my recollection is that the SD of the Nazi party was a smaller theory/educational group. It didnt cover the concentration camp Guards or the Gestapo. (I am not certain of this so please correct me with the facts if I am wrong.)(correction 08/12/02 my SD explanation is partly incorrect; for a correct explanation see Garfield below or AXIS PISTOLS (1986) p191-194)

Ralph Shattuck may still continue to incorrectly list SD marked Lugers as SD of the Nazi Party.

Jan

Garfield,

Refering to the Gibson book recommendation. I will get one ASAP. Thanks.

Jimbo

Herb:

I believe that you have your wires crossed. The SD was the Security Service in charge of gathering intelligence, both foreign and domestic. Perhaps you are confusing the SD with the Sipo or security police to which the Kripo (Criminal Police) and the Gestapo (Secret State Police) were subordinate. While Heydrich ran both the Sipo and the SD, the SD was a seperate and distinct entity. It appears that there considerable rivalry existed between the SD and the Gestapo. The SD had nothing to do with running or guarding of the concentration camps. For that matter, neither did the Sipo.

Jimbo:

There are two printings, the first in 1980 and the second in 1988. I have been told that the pictures in the first printing are of a better quality. I have the second printing and think that the pics are fine. Just mention this for what it is worth.

Good Hunting

The SD (Sicherheitsdienst) was the Secret Service of the Main office of Reich Security (RHSA) under Himmler. The RHSA consisted of the Sipo (the Security police), the Gestapo, and the SD. All were separate internal organizations. The SD was largely manned by professional hatchet men who did their jobs methodically, whether in action against partisans or in executing prisoners of war (like Soviet Commissars) turned over to them. One of its tasks was reporting on the moral of the civilian population, which it did very objectively. The SD was first run by Reinhard Heydrich, and then by Ernst Kaltenbrunner after Czech patriots killed Heydrich in 1942. The SD was not in charge of gathering foreign intelligence. That was the job of Admiral Canaris and the Abwehr, the Gestapo, and the respective military intelligence services. One thing that made the SD so very feared by many was that it was in charge of conducting internal investigations of the Nazi Party. In the guerrilla warfare that went on in the German government of that time, this made people like Heydrich (and later Kaltenbrunner) extremely feared men. Heydrich was one of those rare people who had a very high intelligence and absolutely no conscious what so ever, and even people like Himmler feared him.

Question: If there should happen to be an unaccountably large number of Lugers marked for one or another civilian (Non-party) police force, might this be part of the creative book keeping employed in the late Wiemar and early Nazi periods to hide the true number of pistols the Germans had in hand?

Unspellable
To my knowledge there is no evidence that the Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf had an unusally large number of Lugers issued to it. Perhaps you have additional evidence.

The Allied Control Commission pulled out of Germany in 1927/1928. By the late Weimar/Early Nazi time frame it is doubtful that the Germans were trying to hide police pistol issue by cooking the books or faking Luger grip strap markings (Army issue was hidden by the use of date codes). In 1935 Hitler renounced the armament restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles.
Jan

Here is a wild guess on the high numbers encountered for Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf Lugers. I seem to recall that some police units property marked pistols, rifles and maybe some other equipment with property marks without regard to type, so if one encouters a Luger with a number like S.D.178, perhaps S.D.177 was a rifle?

I have no opinions or evidence for the immediate question, but did start wondering just what did the Germas do to hide pistols from the control commission or any one else.

I did see one oddity. I once saw a Luger in the white with no markings of any kind whatsoever. It was presumed to be a "lunchbox special". That sort of thing does go on at factories. Remeber Johny Cash's song about the Cadillac.

[quote]Originally posted by unspellable:
<strong> I did see one oddity. I once saw a Luger in the white with no markings of any kind whatsoever. It was presumed to be a "lunchbox special". That sort of thing does go on at factories. Remeber Johny Cash's song about the Cadillac.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have read that early occupation force GI's had Lugers assembled from factory parts or maybe even had skilled German workers put them together. I don't recall where I read it so it may be rumor.

"Lunch box" guns do exist and I'm aware of at least one such Union Switch & Signal (USS) 1911A1 in the hands of a retired USS executive who retrieved it from the police after an incident. No serial number or markings other than the slide markings, IIRC. The gentleman also has what may be the only existing records of USS war-time 1911A1 production, although they are far from complete. The records were dug from the trash after being tossed by the company.

Having no hard evidence to refute the SD question as my experience with those initials were during my days of collecting armbands and other forms of Nazi political militaria. SD was always associated with the Security Service. If, in fact, the Lugers found with the S.D. grip stamping representing the Dussledorf police then I assume that all of the examples are also clearly marked in the police fashion, or is this an exception?

Herb and Ron Wood

Herb you stated: â??Hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf.....so many Lugers stamped with that markâ?�
Ron Wood you stated: â??...high numbers encountered for Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf Lugers.â?�
You two must have some information that you havenâ??t stated that indicates that the Dusseldorf administrative District had a larger number of Lugers relative to other similar districts.

Some of the higher/highest Schutzpolizei Luger weapons numbers that I have observed are:

S.D. VI. 1003: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Dusseldorf, precinct VI, pistol no. 1003

S.W. I. 1104: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Wiesbaden, precinct I, pistol no. 1104

S.H. 1208: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Hannover, pistol no. 1208

S.B. 10152: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Berlin, pistol no. 10152

S.B. 11732: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Berlin, pistol no. 11732

These higher pistol numbers, 1003 to 1208 for Dusseldorf, Wiesbaden, and Hannover and 10152 to 11732 for Berlin donâ??t seem to give any indication of a higher number of pistols designated for Dusseldorf. Note: this listing was derived from publications by Still (1982, 1993) and Gortz, Bryans (1997). This table is based on a small amount of data. Data indicating a different conclusion would be most appreciated.

Many years ago I discussed the Prussian State Police unit designations found by Kornmayer in the German archives with Mr. Shattuck. He was still using the Sicherheitsdienst designation on his Luger list. He insisted that Costanzoâ??s (p 220) Sicherheitsdienst designation was correct. As I have not received his list for many years, I donâ??t know if this usage persists. Could any of the Forum members update me on this.
Jan

Would Jan Still please check his private messages?

Thanks, Brandon...

Jan, since I can't dissuade you from your position I guess I will have to accept it, especially in light of the regulations published in April 1922 in the landstadt of Prussia reserving the "S" for police units. I have no idea if Ralph is still holding to the Constanzo explanation or not as I do not buy his brochres, however he and Sam are long time friends. I will be visiting with him this weekend at the Reno gun show, if I remember to do so I'll ask him. I can certainly understand why someone would hold that the meaning Sicherheits Dienst SD as it is commonly meant just that on great numbers of other Nazi military items. One thing that has me wondering is how the NSDAP, national socialistic democratic workers party, ever got shortened to Nazi. Does Nazi mean something entirely different? I have read many, many books on Nazi Germany but have never come across an explanation for this acronym. Any info? Excuse the syntax, my inner ear viral infection is acting up again and things are not working just right at this time, got the dizzies.

Hello Garfield,

Here is the post from Jan C. Still on 6-22-02 in the thread titled "The Rarest Erfurt" under the Forum section called "All P-08 Military Lugers" :

" Doug

The rarest Erfurt luger is dated 1910. It was first described in AUTO MAG and is somewhat controversal. Only two are known.

Jan "

Maybe I did make an assumption that a 1910 Erfurt has been authenticated. It appears the statement only states that a 1910 Erfurt is the "rarest" Erfurt.

I assumed if this was a fake/forgery, it would certainly not be mentioned by one of the luger experts as "the rarest...".

I apologize, ahead of time, for a logic-leap I may have made in my assumption...

Pete:

There you go assuming things. Not wise if you are a collector. Usually leads to heartbreak and, more importantly, a depleted bank account.

In any event, as Brandon has pointed out, experts are not right 100% of the time.

Jan
I have absolutely no information beyond the wild guess I posed. I was just following the thread and stating something I heard. Sorry if I implied otherwise. My real point was that assignment of property numbers may have been shared among other items of police property and not exclusively limited to the numbering of Lugers. Now that you have posted your excellent accounting of various police units, it does strike me as amazing that the police district in Berlin might have had almost 12,000 Lugers! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Doubs,

[quote]I have read that early occupation force GI's had Lugers assembled from factory parts or maybe even had skilled German workers put them together. I don't recall where I read it so it may be rumor. <hr></blockquote>

Please check the Krieghoff forum (Topic: Krieghoff/Mauser KU Quality) for a copy of a letter from H. Kreighoff that will add to your rumors a ring of truth regarding the early occupation forces and building of Lugers from parts...

[quote]Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>Doubs, Please check the Krieghoff forum (Topic: Krieghoff/Mauser KU Quality) for a copy of a letter from H. Kreighoff that will add to your rumors a ring of truth regarding the early occupation forces and building of Lugers from parts...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the reference, John. I read that letter when it was first posted and I also have the book "Kreighoff Parabellum" which I'm sure mentions assembly of Lugers from factory parts. I'm positive I've also read it elsewhere but can't recall exactly where. Sometimes, when I'm posting purely from memory, I can't immediately recall an exact source so I'd rather state it as an opinion based on what I *remember* reading or seeing. I like to have my ducks in a row before I state something as hard and fast fact.

I believe that Jan Still's note of 8/12/02 is correct. If S.D. is not for the town of Dusseldorf, then what was the Police unit marking for Dusseldorf ?. I have two unit marked SD's in my collection, 1921 dated S.D.VI.953, and 1915/1920 DATED S.D.I.275.R with the "R" crossed out. Just my 2 cents and 2 SD's worth.

The "lunch box" special I saw appeared to be a DWM made before 1934. If I recall correctly, that is the cutoff date beyond which US Fderal law requires serial numbers on handguns. If so, there would be complications involved in the possesion of a later pistol with no numbers such as the M1911 mentioned in an earlier post or a Luger assembled post WWII.

According to a 5 April 1922 Directive of the Prussian Minister of the Interior
".....They will receive the symbol for the Schutzpolizei and each kind of weapon will carry a consecutive weapon number."

Of interest is a Luger shown on page v and 153 of Weimar Lugers. Its a 1929 DWM marked L.D.111 (Landjagerei Dusseldorf weapon no. 111) on its front strap.This luger came complete with a Prussian State police bayonet marked L.D.111 and a police holster, tool and two mags marked L.D.111. Apparentally some police units marked associated Luger accessories with the same unit number found on the Luger. Period police photographs show the luger, bayonet and all accessories stored together.
Jan

This was posted in the Military P08 section but it is important enough to repost here.
Jan

Bill Munis
You might be interested in a post by Tom A. under General Discussion titled Buy Books, Read And Study
"It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework."

Then follow the thread down a few posts to see the exact problem that Tom A. was discussing repeated.

Its somewhat similar to the problem that you expressed:

"It must be very confusing for the new collectors to post here and get numerous somewhat different answers as they do not know what to accept and what not to."

One thing is clear, if the poster doesnt know the answer let the reader know that you are speculating. Give the source or explain the basis of your imformation.
Jan