Buffed, Reblued, Boosted - Need Advice
 

I have been working with the assumption that ALL of the WW-I DWM Lugers (1908-1918) had the serial numbers stamped on the bottoms of the barrels added AFTER bluing.

Given that assumption, any such WW-I DWM Luger which has NOT been buffed or blued will have a barrel SN which has the following characteristics:

1. The barrel serial number will be crisply defined.

2. The barrel SN will not appear buffed or polished over,

3. This SN will have slightly raised edges around the numbers due to the force of the die driving into the metal,

4. The barrel SN will exhibit a halo or frosting effect around the numbers.

I have been consistently rejecting any Luger from DWM and this era which does not exhibit these characteristics. I have seen MANY which have this number buffed level with the barrel and, in some cases, almost buffed out.

AM I MAKING A BIG MISTAKE HERE. Need expert advice.

Thanks,
Luke

Luke, I'm really glad you asked the question. I'd like to up the ante a little bit, and say that what would really be useful, particularly for those of us who are relatively new to this and don't have a reference library, would be a brief compendium of stamping practices--what stamps went on which guns before polishing and bluing and which went on after; what special characteristics might appertain to particular guns; and what commonly seen fakes/boosts we might recognize.

--Dwight

In line with this sort of thing, were ALL M1920's rust blued or were some salt blued? I've seen some very nice ones that appear to be salt blued but otherwise original. These are usually not so rare or valuable as to be a great temptation to the booster/forger element. Especially if you have to do a careful enough polishing job to make it look original.

In line with this sort of thing, were ALL M1920's rust blued or were some salt blued? I've seen some very nice ones that appear to be salt blued but otherwise original. These are usually not so rare or valuable as to be a great temptation to the booster/forger element. Especially if you have to do a careful enough polishing job to make it look original.

All 1920s were Rust blued when they were put together. Mauser started Salt bluing in 1937. DWM and ERFURT ALWAYS used rust bluing as far as I know! 1920 Commercials have been used to "make" many rare Luger "replicas" as the original 1920 didnt have a chamber date (either made that way or ground off Imperial date) and many didnt have much in the way of markings. I love the 1920 Commercial 3 & 7/8" 30 Luger. Most are very accurate and a pleasure to shoot.

Luke:

In response to you question, Imho, everything you have said is right as rain.

Good Hunting,

Garfield, you're a good man. That's what I love, a straight, direct answer. Thank you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

DO ANY OF THE OTHER EXPERIENCED COLLECTORS DISAGREE?

Luke

Thor,

The distinction between an M1920, a military surplus, and a military rewrok can get a bit blurry at times. I've seen Lugers with chamber dates that were either reworked military or an M1920, some of them sure looked like an M1920. But I expect this.

The real puzzler is seeing an M1920 in very nice shape that looks like it has an original salt blue job. If it didn't have any rust or pits to begin with, and is all nice and sharp, why would somebody salt blue it? Doesn't seem worth the effort. These things are not rare and about as cheap as any very good to ecellent condition Luger as you can find. Cheap enough to put the blueing on, but I always thought there was a bit of labor in polishing the old finish off, especially if you take enough care to avoid rounding off the corners and smudging the marks.

Luke,

Garfield gets an Amen from me; you are dead on.

Tom <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Why would someone salt bluing it? because salt bluing can make it look new again, it is much cheaper than rust bluing because of the time envolved. Like I said, DWM and Erfurt didnt do it YET, even Mauser in 37 had some rough starts with salt bluing. Since all the books I have read said DWM and Erfurts were rust blued, and they were the only ones doing Lugers in the 20s, then I assume the 1920s were rust blued when they were made. When you reblue a gun, the bluing on the gun originally was lacking and you want it to look better.

Thor,

All true, but how do you lose the original blueing and still have an otherwise new looking piece? And even for salt bluing, you still have to remove the old finish and polish the pieces. Still seems like a lot of work for a gun that looks new to begin with. If it didn't look new, it would require the kind of work you are doing to make it look new. There's not enough money involved in the price of an otherwise run of the mill M1920 to provide an incentive for boosting. (And this is not a crude blueing job we are talking about here.)

I have one with a history such that I have to believe the last time (Be it first or second time.) it was finished was prior to WWII. It appears to be almost literally unfired. A restoration job like that would cost more than it is worth, and that's in addition to the cost of the rough gun.

I have another with no history. On this second one, the usually strawed parts are blued. But again, how did it get to be so crispy looking? besides looking so crispy on the outside this one has a rather poor bore due to someone putting it away with corrosive priming gunk in the barrel. Why refinish and not clean up the barrel?

Was there a period between the two wars when the economics and incentives of refinishing were different than they are today?

Maybe we need a "History of Luger Refinishing, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"

I have expressed my opinion on this subject. I dont know the whys, wheres other things,I was not there when all this happened. I read books others have written that have done more research than me. I know how to do the metal prep, salt blue, fire blue, strawing, rust bluing, and how to shoot, fix some mechanical problems. I count these as a real blessing and an enjoyement. I will leave the deep thought musements to others. Beyond that, you will have to get other opinions on this. On another side note, Luke sent me a beautiful Early DWM to restore that was spotless and about 99% blued. Salt bluing on the entire Luger, a wonderful job, but not original and it was definitely a modern day job! That was the Bavarian Luger. Why would someone do this? They wanted a BLACK Luger I guess! Good luck!

Guys,

In the '60s you could get a pistol reblued for maybe $30-$35 or so. Of course you could buy them brand new for maybe $80 or so (brand new 1911A1s or SAAs). Lugers could be had for $40-50, but who wanted old foreign guns then. I wish I had bought a barrel full of Colt SAAs to resell today (or maybe tomorrow).

I had a number of 1911s reblued because they were worn GIs and I didn't want my guns to look like that, not necessarily because it was economical.

SELECT MARKINGS, IMPERIAL MILITARY LUGERS, (all unit marked, show use, and in original condition)


1908 DWM (Based on 10 observations): dull left receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number sometimes with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1910 DWM (Based on 11 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1911 DWM (Based on 6 observations): sharp or dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1912 DWM (Based on 2 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1913 DWM (Based on 5 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate or faint barrel proof.

1914 DWM (Based on 2 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1915 DWM (Based on 3 observations): dull to sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without or without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1916 DWM (Based on 4 observations): dull to sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate or faint barrel proof.

1917 DWM (Based on 1 observation): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1915 Long P08 DWM (Based on 1 observation): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1917 Long P08 DWM (Based on 4 observation): sharp or dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1911 Erfurt (Based on 2 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1912 Erfurt (Based on 5 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1913 Erfurt (Based on 5 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with or without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1914 Erfurt (Based on 1 observation): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

Note: restoration of 1910 DWM eliminated barrel serial number and barrel gauge halo.

Boy that is the kind of sharing of information that is so nice, thanks a lot Jan!

Jan, thank you very much for your careful observation and thorough assessment, your efforts are much appreciated. Could you make a similar assessment of parts serial# stamping, toggle proofs, and Erfurt proof/inspector parts stamps? Also, what characteristics should we look for in unit markings?

We may be onto something here, is there anyone who can do this with Weimar or Mauser Lugers, as well as less common contracts and variants?

--Dwight

This kind of information will be very useful to newer collectors who are the prime targets for unscrupulous Luger boosters.

My sincere thanks to Tom Armstrong and Bill Garrison for their straightforward answers to my initial inquiry, and to Jan Still for all of the good data on known-good Lugers. What a great effort! Without the help of conscientious collectors such as these folks, newer collectors would be at the mercy of the worst elements in collecting.

Luke:

Good Hunting,

I would like to add my thanks to Jan Still, Garfield (William Garrison), and Tom Armstrong, for their efforts because this message thread is an example of exactly what the Lugerforum was intended for! Sharing of good information between concerned Luger enthusiasts.

Keep up the great work guys... This website is destined to be a universal knowledge center for the history of the manufacture and use of Lugers...

For those who haven't taken the time to notice the statistics, in the last 65 days since we opened the front door on this new forum, we have registered 436 members... and among them some of the most well known and prominent Luger experts in the world...all that on the strength of word of mouth referrals since we don't advertise...and while I have frequented many other gun related forums in the last 7 years working on the Internet, I have never seen another forum that comes close to this one...

John,

Ditto. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Luke

Thanks to Jan and Tom and Bill and all for the info. I printed off the whole thread and shoved it in "Imperial Lugers"

thanks, Heinz

Ah Ha! So now I know Garfield is that Garrison reprobate I see in K.C. and Monroeville. Well, there goes the neighborhood!

Good to see that the Judge is present!
Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Tom:

You Dog! Now you have blown my cover!

Here are three pics of one of my 1914 Erfurt Artillery pistols. They tend to bear out Jan's observations of the single example he has recorded; soft proofs on the right receiver; sharp but rather delicate barrel proof and barrel serial numbers with halo while bore measurements have very little halo. (If not magnified as in the pic, the bore measurement numbers halo would not be obvious at all.)

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/LP-08ErfurtLogo.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/LP-08ErfurtProofs.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/LP...rtBBLSerNo.jpg

Doubs:

Great pics!

Tom A, In case you were not aware, all you have to do to see the real name of a member is click on the member profile in one of their posts. One of the rules created when this new forum was established was - No more anonymous users with posting privileges. You can use a name handle if you want, but your identity must be know to the board admins and you must have valid email address.

That rule has cut the flames posts down to near zero... Of the 436 membership applications so far, only about 6 have been either invalid names or have simply refused to respond to a request for their name before authorizing posting privileges. Those applicants simply don't know what they are missing by not being able to participate here. I doubt many other discussion boards have percentages that good.

Unspellable; It is not necessary to polish (buff) to either remove the old blueing or to reblue. There are several chemicals that will instantly remove old blueing and clean the work in preparation for a new treatment. Polishing is done to remove damage and restore the appearance of work that originally had a glossy finish.

It is true that there are chemical processes for removing bluing. But you don't get them done for free and they don't restore pitting or wear. So the question remains, why would you reblue a mint condition gun? Is it conceivable that the original bluing can be significantly worn or lost with no signs of pitting, wear, or blemishing on the pistol?

If there are any surface defects on the pistol we are right back to polishing again. And not just any character with a buffing wheel, but some body doing the sort of work Thor does.

Unspellable, yes, it is conceivable that a gun can lose a lot of its bluing through wear but not suffer pitting. I see these kinds of lugers fairly often. They have little finish but are not pitted. They make good candiates for refinishing and there are people who actively seek these out. At a collectors'show, one will typically see that well-worn lugers with no pits sell for more than those with pits because of this.

It is easy to prepare a smooth surface for rebluing by simply acid-dipping the pistol. At least one restoration person I know follows that method routinely. The surfaces do not need to be polished and it is undesirable to do so if there are no serious pits. Polishing will result in too smooth a surface and will weaken markings.

It should also be noted that markings may gain a "halo" from post-bluing stamping OR from wear because the edges of the marking have raised above the surface when stamped thus making the edges more exposed to friction during use. That is what physics suggests. I would like to hear others'comments regarding this.

Dave from Iowa

At the risk of belaboring the point, you wouldn't reblue a mint gun. A mint gun has all it's original blue and no damage. Like the man said, it's not only possible but commonplace for a pistol to have most of it's blue worn off with no pitting, excessive wear or other damage. These pieces are good candidates for acid-cleaning and rust bluing with no buffing or other corrective work. This results in a very good-looking pistol which retains 100% of surface features. I would do this to my own gun if it were not particularly collectable.

I have not seen an otherwise mint Luger missing a significant amount of its bluing. This is not to say they don't exist, experience has taught me that what one sees in one part of the country is not the same as what one sees in another part.

What I have seen are mint M1920 commercials that are salt blued, making me wonder if any were originally so done. They are too common and sell at too low a price to justify a full blown restoration job, either legit or "boosted". Can you buy one, make it look mint, and salt blue it, all inside of $400? The straw has to look mint, the grips have to look mint. Or did I just get lucky?

And I have one such with a history, such that we can be pretty sure that if it was reblued, it was done a LONG time ago, probably pre WWII.

I have a second that is all blue, including the straw parts. No history.

We do have a known booster in the area but he sticks to the military types, proably because there is not enough money in an M1920.

I guess all this is one reason I run to shooters, even very nice ones, they are still worth what I paid even if they turn out to be phoney as a three dollar bill.

In what part of Iowa is this booster located?

I have seen several lugers and a couple P38s in the past eight years that had nice smooth metal but bad or no finish. Most common among these are the eastern countries imports that are salt blued over original finish. Many appear to have been near mint before rebluing.

I have not seen a 20s luger that was not manufactured with strawed parts. It is possible it was reblued years ago. Do you have photos of one? That would be interesting.

As a side note, at the last Colo Springs gunshow a guy was selling several lugers including a near mint (metal) byf42. Odd thing, though, was that the back half of the gun was 0% finish. The only blue was on the barrel, chamber, and frame front. I have no idea how it got that way. All the guns were consignments and had condition problems. The story told was that the seller was in financial trouble and wanted around $1200 for the pistol. He refused to sell any of his guns when the best offer he could get was $450.

I ran into this guy as he was wandering around the Cedar Rapids show trying to sell a boosted Luger. Somebody else at the show told me he was noted for selling boosted or faked Lugers. I don't remember for sure where he was operating out of, but it may have been the Cedar rapids area.

I have two pretty M1920's. One appears to be salt blued with the strawed parts strawed and is in just about mint condition (including bore and grips) aside from questions of refinishing. It has a history and if refinsihed it was done a long time ago. The strawing is quite light in color.

The second appears to be salt blued including the strawed parts. I have no history for it, so if refinished it could have been done at any time. It has two small notches in the trigger guard (under the bluing) that look like the old time western movie bad guy's notches in the revolver grip. The bore is poor, but not worn, appears as if someone put it away with corrosive primer gunk in it. Otherwise, the pistol looks extremely clean and crispy.

Both are chambered for the 7.65 mm cartridge.

unspellable,

Blood stains on the original rust bluing would leave a gun that is undamaged with perfect markings but ugly splotches that would hurt value. A gun in that condition, with no other corrosion, would be a good candidate to reblue to bring to top value. Or a vet might have simply wanted to restore the finish to like new, not realizing that new meant rust blue, not salt blue.

Every knowledgable person here (which is NOT me!!!) is saying these guns were never salt blued and any that were have been refinished.