No blue pin on wood-bottom mag
 

I noticed this wooden bottom magazine on eBay.com and would like your opinions as to whether it has been rebuilt or not. The retaining pin for the wood bottom does not have a blue hue. Should it not have?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=36049&rd=1

Wes,
That one looks OK to me.
Tom A

Well, Tom, my eyes must be failing me more than I thought. I can see absolutely no blue whatsoever on the pins. What am I overlooking?

Wes -

I looked at this one and emailed the seller asking if the serial number had been sanded off.

He replied that the bottom appeared to be unaltered and not sanded.

As of 9:30PM EST the bid is at $167.50. Seems awfully high for an unnumbered magazine.

Luke

Wes, Tom, Luke,
Something about the bottom of this Magazine gives me cause to raise a few Questions.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Question-001.jpg
If the Mag Bottom has not been altered? Why is the Bottom so rough appearing, and there appears no roughness on the rounded edges of the Buttons?
Why did the photo that is stated to be a witness to the originality be digitized just below the point where evidence would be apparent?
Why is the Pixelation evident only in the area that would contain definitive evidence?
JMO
ViggoG

Call me gullible, but I have to go with Tom...I think it is good mag. If someone replaced the base, they used a good base and are awfully good at not messing up the magazine tube in the process. I hope someone doesn't "match" it up to a Luger after purchase. I also agree with Luke, that is pretty expensive.

I share Viggo's questions about the compression artifacts masking the quality of the bottom of the mag base. Also, I think that Wes's question kind of got lost in the mix--is the retaining pin on a magazine such as this properly blued, or not?

--Dwight

I'm Sorry Folks, <img border="0" alt="[sleep]" title="" src="graemlins/sleep.gif" />
I think I should have added that I feel that the pin finish should be the same as the tube finish.
That is A blued Mag tube should have a blued Pin and likewise a Nickel Plate tube Should have a Nickel Plate Pin.
Thats what I seem to remember as being proper.
My $0.02
ViggoG

Wes and Dwight,
Wes is correct that the base pin is blued. On the early Lugers, particularly the Swiss, it is a beautiful fire blue. On later mags, the blue seems to get duller. To me, the mag on eBay has a blued pin, at least it appears darker than the magazine body. I would like for it to appear darker, but I'm not sure it isn't authentic. Then again, for that kind of money, it better be.

Gentlemen (& Ladies if there are any here)... I have rotated, enlarged, enhanced, and mirrored the image from the auction ad and also created a negative copy (top) to examine as closely as possible the area where a serial number would be...

The results are inconclusive to me based on the photographic evidence. I would need to see a much clearer focus photo in order to offer my personal opinion on whether or not this magazine bottom has been sanded or otherwise modified...

Here is the photo as modified for your viewing pleasure...

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...on06232003.jpg

Just my http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/twocents.jpg

Guys,

If I am lucky enough to win this one, I will be happy to bring it along for show & tell at both the Reno and the Tulsa shows coming up...

In C. Kenyon's book, "Luger - The Multinational Pistol" there sure are some magazine pins on some Navy and Artillery magazines that look silver...no blue cast at all...

As I know of several good fellows and have heard of others that can put any shade of blue on any luger part you want, including any "aging" you might also want... I am not too concerned with the colour of the pin.

So what bit of security does a nice fire-blue pin really buy you...?

Wood and tube looked good on this one on auction and I have a minty Swiss insert magazine bottom that sure needs a much better home (really rusty tube...)...and the old tube will inherit this nice un-numbered wood...

I thought my 1920's 6" bbl. Swiss shooter would look really good with a fixed-up Swiss insert magazine...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I have a minty Swiss insert magazine bottom that sure needs a much better home (really rusty tube...)...and the old tube will inherit this nice un-numbered wood...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
Hope you are joking, Pete.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> As I know of several good fellows and have heard of others that can put any shade of blue on any luger part you want, including any "aging" you might also want... I am not too concerned with the colour of the pin. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
Are you implying that you would have colour added to a pin?

At 8:10PM it is bid at $202.50. Wow ! ! ! This could eventually be the most expensive magazine ever.

Serious question. Can someone please help me to understand why this particular magazine is so valuable?

I have bought several WW-I magazines, some of them "Excellent +," for less money. Am I missing something here?

Thanks,
Luke

The wooden bottom magazines are valuable for several reasons:
1. they may be stamped to accommodate pistols that are missing the correct magazine;
2. they may be stamped as the extra mag issued to a pistol;
3. you do not have to remove an old number to modify it to a desired number;
4. because of their utility, they are becoming more scarce (non-renewable resource).
Very versatile little magazines, these!

Some have gone for $400.

Wes,
The answer to your question about the pin being blue in color is that Imperial wood based magazines originally had blued connecting pins. It is nice to find them with the blue still on the pin, but over time, some loose this blue color and become more of a nickel color, or there is wear on the pin and it becomes nickel in color. The commercial magazines such as this one should have the blue colored pin also. These commercial blank magazines are getting harder and harder to find and collectors want them to make complete rigs for all the commercial models. -- Bill

Bill,
The magazines that lose their blue hue will also show the wear evenly over the entire mag. The loss of blue on the pins under discussion is very disproportionate to the rest of the mag. This presents a problem.

Interesting discussion. Personally, I have never paid much attention to the pins. As long as there was a tight fit, the number and markings were correct and the tube was correct and not bent, it was OK with me. But the price is kinda high. Hey John, your getting pretty good at that forensic science. You must be watching a lot of that detective stuff of cable TV.

But lets suppose something else. If you found a matching magazine for one of your prized Lugers but you suspected that the bottom had been changed to an appropriate tube but not otherwise altered, would that change the way you feel about the magazine? Would you still be willing to pay a higher price for the matchup?

A second question that I would like to ask is if you accidentally dropped a matching mag to one of your prized Lugers on the garage floor and then ran over it with your car crushing everything but the wood bottom, would you throw out he entire ruined magazine or try to mount the wood bottom on an appropriate other tube?
Big Norm

Hello Wes,

Looks like someone thought that magazine was worth $ 240.00...

Actually I was not joking about trying to piece together a Swiss insert magazine for one of my shooters. After all, it is my money...

And my point about those folks than can do any shade of fire blue was just to point out that those folks are out there and how certain can one be of the authenticity of a fire-blue part and when/where its finish was actually done...

Similarly, have you notice how many lugers are showing absolutely pristine fire-blued grip screws...?

If I am looking to buy a not-messed with magazine, I tend to follow Big Norm's advice. As long the the pin fits, does not show evidence of having been removed-reinstalled; I usually do not worry about how much blue it might have remaining...if it has blue, that is great, if not, no big deal...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Time for me to call USAA and update my insurance on the collection. I've unmarked wood bottums in all my imperials that lack matching numbers and about ten more laying around loose.

Does anyone know the i.d. of the winner? Wes makes a fine but frightening point.

Accidents cannot be undone. Whenever you run the 4x4 All-Terrain Sand-Grippers over the mag. The value is gone - forever. There is no replacement.
If the 'Mona Lisa' is destroyed in a fire, no problem, can we simply run off a print and it will be just as valuable?
If a man takes steel wool to the mag to shine it up, each pass with the wool takes value from the mag along with the blue of the pins.
If the number of fire blue, perfect grip screws increases, do we just shrug our shoulders and accept it? Do we account it the same value as the authentic article?
If there is no descrimination, there is no value to our collection. We all become 'utilitarians'.

Hmm,

I got one just like that, with blued pin. It came with the dutch M11 (pictures in the gallery) and all I can see is worn off blueing in the centre of the pin (on both sides), probably caused by generous use of the pin punch for cleaning purposes...

I'll have this mag insured separately, as it now seems to sell for about half the amount i paid for both the gun and 2 mags....

Oh, Wes. I agree. I don't use this mag, but use the replacement blued mag that also came with the gun and I recently bought a new MecGar as well.

I'm currently looking for an extra shooter to avoid wear to the M11 as well, since our 'fantastic' gun laws actually force us to use the guns on a regular basis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
Hey John, your getting pretty good at that forensic science. You must be watching a lot of that detective stuff of cable TV.

But lets suppose something else. If you found a matching magazine for one of your prized Lugers but you suspected that the bottom had been changed to an appropriate tube but not otherwise altered, would that change the way you feel about the magazine? Would you still be willing to pay a higher price for the matchup?

A second question that I would like to ask is if you accidentally dropped a matching mag to one of your prized Lugers on the garage floor and then ran over it with your car crushing everything but the wood bottom, would you throw out he entire ruined magazine or try to mount the wood bottom on an appropriate other tube?
Big Norm</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Okay Norm, let me see if I can answer these questions in the correct sequence ...

It all started when I first read the Sherlock Holmes series more decades ago than I care to admit... Add to that all the other mystery and spy novels I have read during the years since that time... add a decade or two of gunsmithing, restoration and repairs. Toss in some hands on Industrial Engineering and Manufacturing, and top it off with the latest re-runs of CSI and nearly five years discussing the techniques of forgery in rare Lugers on this forum and six to seven years experience in digital photography and I have adequate background for some investigative forensics... not to mention that I enjoy it. :)

2nd answer to your Questions: Unless the mag bottom were installed in an "appropriate" tube with a ROLL pin, how would you ever determine that the set were not original? Punch marks on the head of the pin? That would be a toughie... I would probably be just as happy with the mag because I guess it would be no different that an armorer's repair by canibalizing two otherwise useless magazines into one functional one.

#3...Since I don't own any collector grade Lugers I don't think situation three would make that much difference to me personally... but to the hobby, and to those who trust their fortunes and their sacred honor to collecting Lugers, I guess I would be saddened by the NECESSITY to marry a good and matching wooden bottom to a functional and appropriate magazine tube. I can imagine that if you were a Soldier and you found it necessary to return your military issued P.08 to the arms depot for "work" without magazines but with an appropriate requisition form, you would eventually get it back with two NEW and matching numbered magazines...

I think we often confuse and misuse the terms "matching" - "original" - "authentic" and "correct" in this hobby.

Here is one more situation for you... you are a soldier who has just had his two magazines run over by your own tank (sort of a friendly fire incident) and one tube is mashed flat and the other mag has had the ears broken off the mag bottom by the event... If you have the unit armorer put the good bottom on the good tube, are we now out of the "collectible" arena as far as this mag is concerned... or how would the eventual heirs ever know that this happened?

All of these situations are nothing like the intentional deception practiced by SOME purveyors of antique masterpieces like our precious Lugers, at most they are honest attempts to maintain functionality in a service sidearm with as much "originality" as is possible and practical.

John,
I love Sherlock Holmes too. Columbos right up there too. I even like all the reruns by both of these people. I have seen a couple of your forensic posts and you seem to be getting better each time. Keep it up. Maybe you have a calling here.

I truely understand and appreciate Wes and his Luger purism. An original Luger is preferred to a restored Luger. Hands down. But I do believe that there is a place in our collecting for the restoration artist. The artist who makes an ugly duckling look "new in box" without alterations or misrepresentation of the gun or its parts. I do NOT believe that there is any place here or anywhere for hackers, counterfeiters and others who misrepresent our prized topic. But I don't believe that recheckering original grips or restaining them is wrong. I don't think that putting an original unaltered bottom unto an appropriate, original, unaltered tube is wrong either. But I don't think that putting that pin in and stamping a head on it without bending the tube is as easy as it looks.
Big Norm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
...But I don't believe that recheckering original grips or restaining them is wrong. I don't think that putting an original unaltered bottom unto an appropriate, original, unaltered tube is wrong either. But I don't think that putting that pin in and stamping a head on it without bending the tube is as easy as it looks.
Big Norm </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">How true Norm... one only has to look at the old trashy mexican origin reproduction Luger magazines to see that even manufacturing these mags "new" requires finesse and the RIGHT TOOLS. I have owned a couple of these old aluminum bottom mexican mags and they were nothing but trouble... they often have the appearance of being made by convicts with files and hammers that don't have a polished face :D

A hobby is a pure expression of ourself: what we strive for and value in our character, what we demand of ourselves, the degree of compromise that we will accept, etc. If we accept things that are bogus, are happy with substitution, and are not descriminating, a hobby will not change us, only allow expression of our values.
Some have the hobby of shooting, some the hobby of selling, some the hobby of collecting, etc. Lugers comprise more than a single category of hobby.

I do not think I would categorize Wes's position as "purism" but as an honest historian. When you take a Luger with an unmatched magazine and install a renumbered magazine you have tampered with the history of the piece. And to have a rare difference of opinion with John S, when the Imperial army sent a pistol off for new magazines I think they took whatever came back, and doubt they were matched until Weimar era reissues. For instance I have a Haenel Schmeisser mag with a wood bottom numbered to the 1915 dated police reissue pistol. Probably a salvage of the original part and a new mag body. Should I stick a pristeen sheet metal tube with a *K on the old base. A large piece of the pistol's history would be lost. I would bet that whoever purchases the blank bottomed mag will not mark it "purchased on EBay - 2003.

If I wanted a replacement that looked proper for a comercial, thia mag could be OK. To modify it into another use I find questionable. What do you tell a prospective purchaser? And you have altered the real history of the mag and the pistol