Broken Parts Survey--Finished!
 

After a long procrastination I have finished the broken parts survey. I am posting it here, and have sent it to Ed Tinker for inclusion in the FAQ. Thanks to everyone who responded.

--Dwight

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Those of us who shoot our Lugers are alert to the possibility of breaking the occasional part on these 60- to 100-year-old guns. Those of us who collect as well know how much a broken/replaced part can reduce the value of our guns.

But, what parts are likely to break in use? This brief survey was taken in the fall of 2002 to try to determine a pattern of potential parts breakage. The intent was to identify parts which break as a result of shooting, but a couple other noteworthy results cropped up.

The Takedown Lever (or Locking Lever) spring This is the tiny spring which holds the takedown lever in position. Although this spring is unaffected by shooting, it spends its entire existence in a compressed state, and is exercised whenever the lever is moved. It can, therefore, be use stressed even in a Luger which is never shot. It is interesting to note that this is the second most broken part.

The Million-Dollar Chip, the little piece of the left grip plate behind the safety lever which is commonly broken away; so called because that is the total amount all the Lugers which are missing this piece have been devalued. Several respondants mentioned this grip breakage, but it appeared to be beyond the scope of the survey as a condition of the pistol, rather than as a factor of active use, and I was not going to include it. However, recently I was at the range shooting a number of my Lugers; when I offered an LP-08 to a shooting companion, I noticed that the chip was missing from the grip. It was there when the shooting session started, usage therefore is one cause of this condition. This is not reflected as a statisitc, merely mentioned as a cautionary note.

Lugers are a robust, sturdy pistol, designed to use ammunition more powerful than that found commercially, at least in the U.S. Although they are finely crafted (and considerably hand-fitted) machines, they are in no way 'fragile'. They are great fun to shoot, and incredibly accurate. Over the course of 60-100 years, however, metal can become fatigued, crystallized, parts can develop microscopic cracks. Care should be taken for one's personal safety, as well as for maintaining the value of our Lugers.

--Dwight Gruber

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There have been 22 respondants to the survey, although by the nature of the answers this represents more actual pistols than this number.

ejector** 11

takedown spring 7

extractor* 6

grip screw** 3

rear toggle axle pin*** 3

trigger lever pin 2

breechblock* 2

rear toggle piece* 2

holdopen spring 2

firing pin* 2

grip safety spring 1

holdopen* 1

upper receiver* 1

recoil spring, flat 1

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* serial numbered part

** proof stamped on Erfurts and most Simpsons

*** serial number stamped, 1932 and later

Thanks Dwight; Great survey, good info.

Added to FAQ

Thanks for the work Dwight :)

Good work, Dwight.

Thanks,
Luke

Nice work Dwight. I would have put the extractor, locking bolt, the million dollar chip on the left grip, the magazines pull down pin and plastic and wood bottoms on the magazines at the top of the list. Not necessarily in that order. I was surprised that the ejector was the top problem.
The Luger is a pretty robust gun. But I would never use and original magazine at the range. Its too easy to ding, chip or break the bottoms. That pull down pin can also break too easily. For shooting, an inexpensive repro will do the job.
Big Norm

Sorry Norm, but get a beat up old fxo magazine and you won't have very many problems!! It's a marvelous magazine!!

When I shot my built up Artillery, the top reciever(bbl. extension) had cracked, sent the upper to Tom Heller and he rebarrelled it to a new upper(thanks Tom), this was in 2000. I noticed the crack on the bottom where the 2 extensions.meet the breech. This was on the ejector side. Also had broken the breech block on one upper rear side right where the cut out for the part that goes against the firing pin spring, Thanks to Tom H. I was able to get that part too. Check the bbl. extensions after shooting, preferably after cleaning.

Thusfar it seems that we can conclude that the post war Lugers are on a fairly equal par with earlier Lugers as far as durability is concerned.

Aaron,

I might draw a different conclusion.

Mauser Parabellums are only 35 or so years old; original P-08 range from 60-100 years old. By reputation most Mauser Parabellums are seldom used, whereas original Lugers can have active, shooting service lives up to 40 years.

In this light the breakage experiences reported with these pistols in the other discussion make them seem relatively fragile.

--Dwight

Dwight, don't know if you want more data for this survey but surely there are new people like myself who didn't provide data earlier.

Anyway my mismatched shooter has had only one part break over the 30 years (and thousands of rounds) I've had it. The rear toggle/frame axle pin broke in half however the pistol continued to fire. Didn't discover it until I cleaned the gun later in the day. Fortunately the replacement part almost certainly will drop in and work as well as the original pin.

Since this discussion is active again, it seems like a good opportunity to gather more data.

If anyone has a broken part during shooting to report, who has not reported it in the original survey, I'd like to include it and update the results. Post your information here, or email me dwightg@pacifier.com.

--Dwight

Dwight,

I lost a trigger lever pin on an Artillery.

I also have a rear toggle pin on another Arty that is frozen in place, but does not affect it's shooting ability.

I doubt that you have a report on Jerry Burney's Navy losing a rear toggle pin while we were shooting. It was in the summer of 2006; way past your first query.

Updated, thanks.

Dwight

Dwight,
I had the top of a holdopen sheared off on a 1917 DWM many years ago. That was the last time I shot one of my Lugers. Fortunately Tom had a replacement with the correct number.
Mike

Safety area chip
 

I discovered the safety area piece of the grip

missing after shooting at the range; I went

back to the range and never did find it.

Bob

Bob, the upper right corner of the grip? ..very common thing to loose, known as by some as the 'million dollar ship'. Usually broken off when removing the grips in the wrong manner.

Dwight, could this manual be a usefull part of the survey?http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=18255
It has listed up all parts and the amount of each that should be in reserve pr 100 Lugers. I guess they have based their numbers on how often the part brake.. just a thought, let me know if you want me to list it up for you

Missing piece
 

Steinar, Yes it was the upper right

corner of the grip.

Bob

Hello Dwight,

For inclusion in your survey, I have had 2mm chips develop on both sides of an 1911 Erfurt's breechblock, where the extractor's hook, fits/lays in the breechblock. I have also found a firing pin spring guide had broken at the base of the guide post, on a 1906 DWM American Eagle. In addition I have had an ejector break at the range on the same Erfurt noted above.

Joe

Hello - broke an ejector on an S/42

I recently purchased a fairly nice Finish M-23 Luger. It has a 5" Tikka replacement barrel, and has obviously been re-arsenaled several times.

When I bought it, it had a broken ejector. After replacing the ejector I put 40 rounds through it before the extractor sheared off where the retaining pin goes through.

Thanks to Lugerdoc, the parts have been replaced with correct originals, and it is perking along fairly well.

Another broken part
 

Dwight,

I have a 1913 Erfurt that has a small chunk off the bottom of the sear bar.

Mike

Mike, can you post a photo of the damage of your sear bar. I have never heard of that type of problem before... Any idea what caused that damage since that part really doesn't receive a whole lot of stress on its bottom?

1913 Erfurt
 

Ed,

The gun is a 1913 Erfurt; s/n 4906, no stock lug, added hold open, unrelv. searbar. The safety is bit loose and sticks up a little bit. I assume that when fired the searbar caught on the safty and broke. I guess I should one day send it to Tom Heller for repair!

Mike:D


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...furt_copy1.gif

Another broken extractor to report.

This thread is quite old, but Dwight may still be maintaining data. In all the years shooting my Lugers I have only had one break a part during a shooting session. This was on an Artillery model. Thank goodness it was an un-serialed part.

Keeping a good mainspring and magazine spring helps keep them working right. I have witnessed and have pictures of a rear toggle link that cracked due to over pressure load or a weak mainspring, or both. Sadly on a SWISS Luger
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/SwissTop.jpg

Hows it going Thor? I know this is an old thread, but after reading the post about the cracking in the rear toggle on the swiss luger. I have a 1900 AE that is showing some cracking in the same locations of the swiss.

You say it could be a to weak main spring or to strong of one. You are refering to the leaf spring that is in the grip of my luger. I went shooting it the other day just to shoot it and the toggle would not close completly about 2 or 3 times a magazine load. I would have to manually push the toggle down to shoot the next round.

Is this reprentative of a weak mainspring. I was using a new aftermarket macgar magazine that has a tight spring in it.

I re-examined the rear toggle after shooting it that day and the cracking in the corner did not appear to have grown. I have been wanting to change out the mainspring and rear toggle as soon as I can, but xmas put a slight dent in my wallet for the momment. See Pics of the indication.

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Hi Glenn,

In his e-book about the mechanical ins and outs of the Luger system, Gerard Henrotin has included a section with photos, illustrations, and explanation/description of areas within a Luger that show wear from use and/or abuse. This is an opportunity for us to do a case-study to check out these areas, if you have the time to take more pics.

Unfortunately since I haven't renewed the passwords necessary to access it on my new computer, so I cannot suggest these areas except from memory and what I do actually know.

The firing pin guide, when jammed back into the action, I'm pretty sure hammers the portion of the rear toggle link that presents itself when in the upright, over-extended position, so we're looking for details of where they've touched. There is also interaction with the little ears inside the rear of the frame, between the main "ears" of the barrel extension. And, as Eric pointed out not too long ago, check the peening action on the rear of the frame where the ducktail stop hammers it when the action is all the way back, and beyond. He cleverly dubbed them a Luger's fingerprint (as no two are exactly alike?) Maybe some sign of interaction between the receiver lug and its stop? That's all I can come up with for the moment, but you get the idea?

An overpowered load hyper-energizes the action, giving it more mechanical energy than it was designed to deal with. A weak mainspring's effect would be similar, in that it allows hyper-extension to take place using the energy of a proper load; The same parts will collide in the action as using too strong a cartridge. When the mechanism reaches all its stops and extremes, and there is still mechanical energy left, well, that all gets invested into doing damage. Just a question of time before something gives out.

The fresh mainspring rule I think may be the number one procedure to protect a Luger during shooting. Lack of lube, it would have stoppages or something, but not have the gun be beating itself with every shot.

I have a few Erma La, Ep, Et .22s. When digesting a mag of CCI Stingers, they are more than likely than not to break both ears from the front toggle link, and peen the legs of the rear toggle link with the rear of the breech block. I had to replace the toggle, and filed the sides of the legs flush again, never to use a load of greater than about 1200-1235 fps. No breakage since that rule was established.

I haven't had anything break that I would post to this survey...Until I got my 1900 AE...It came with a broken fining pin guide... :(

Since replaced; however I decided not to chance firing it since my toggle duckbill has left quite a 'fingerprint'...

(I did have a S/42 takedown lever spring wear out...Or wear flat...)

Rich,
The head of the firing pin spring guide looks as if it's been hammered. "Fingerprint" by Sasquatch! This pistol is either tested to the max by this, or set up--all ready to break!

Results after examining the parts
 

Well I completly took my 1900 apart an examined the frame, toggle and firing pin. What I found was as followed:

1. There was an imprint on the backside of the frame where the toggle has hit the frame, but not all that bad.
2. Obvious areas on the toggle knobs where they have been rubbing somewhere on the frame.
3. The inside of the frame had an indention where the firing pin guide has been hitting the frame. The mainspring lever ctach on the rear toggle had some marks on it around the location of where the firing pin guide would be hitting the frame, but no excessive scarring of the metal.
The "T" portion of this levr was slighlty bent, but still sits in the main spring seats with no problem.
4. The ammo I have been firing is "Fiocchi 7.65 parabellum - 93 grain full metal jacket"

Look at the pics and see what yall think and what should be done so I can still make this a shooter.

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1900 safety sear spring breakage
 

I found this a little while back when I tore my 1900 AE completely apart. I always wondered if the grip safety was working properly and realized that the grip safety sear spring was broken. I figured this was the location that I needed to put this information at.

Attachment 42297

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You're right, Glenn, it's a goner. Tom Heller cam probably fix you up. It's a little tricky to engage the spring with its lug on the lever, while seating the pivot pin of the lever in its hole, but be patient and you'll get it. Been wanting a 1900 shooter! :envy: