Matching Magazines
 

This appeared off-topic in the tailings of a played-out thread. I am bringing it back up here becuase I think it is worth a thought or two.

--Dwight

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quote:
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Originally posted by Heinz:
Hugh, Fred Datig, in his early text on Lugers states that not one Luger in a hundred is likely to have a matching magazine. Is it not amazing how matching magazines has become common in the last 40 years?
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I'm not sure that it needs to be amazing. Some speculative questioning with applied logic follows:

Of the many Lugers which have shown up with matching magazines, how many of them are Police models? It would seem that many of these guns receive a "second chance" to have matching mags due to their reissue. This relative youth (compared particularly to Imperial Lugers), the fact that the reissue is usually two (and sometimes three) mags, and their use in civil circumstances as opposed to combat; these circumstances would seem to increase the odds that at least one matching magazine would find itself carried along with the gun over the years.

Do East German and Russian reworks and dipped guns tend to retain matching magazines? A straight question, I do not know the answer but I suspect that some Forum members might.

What is the matching magazine data from other recent import floods from places such as Finland?

Is it possible that circumstances such as these represent sampling which was not available to Datig, and might increase the overall percentage?

There is another side to this coin.

Heinz, what observations prompt you to conclude that matching magazines have become "common"?

My own observations come from dealer advertising and a modest sampling from gun shows, local gun and pawn shops, my own small collection, and an occasional look at another collectors' pieces.

Dealer selections usually feature higher-end Lugers, which frequently have matching magazines--this in itself adds to the gun's high-end collectibity, and liklihood that the gun will be featured (yes, a circular circumstance).

Actual guns I observe seem to have a much lower frequency of matching magazines than dealer advertisements. And there are many thousands--tens of thousands, perhaps--of Lugers out there which go un-observed.

It is very likely that the sample which promotes the feeling that matching magazines are common is quite skewed, and Datig may very well be on the mark.

--Dwight

Dwight,

My experience is based on the Ohio Gun Collectors Show and the Lugers I have seen for sale on Simpsons and Shattuck's websites. Over 75% of the Lugers I saw at the OGCA had matching mags. I think the classifieds on this forum run about the same percentage.

I have a matching mag with my 1915 Police but it is apparent it was made after original issue, hopefully when it was reworked for police use, but no way of telling.

Dwight check your PM

Russ

I have just picked up 3 1st world war DWM rigs...one has one matching mag...the other two each have two matching mags.......the guns are basically as issued and I presume the guns were captured from rear echelon units...the guns and mags are unmolested and have sat in storage for many years....if a gun did not see action then chances are good at least one magazine will match....Peter

Over the years I have done several "estate sales", or have had the odd once in a while Luger come into my shop without the owner having ever heard of Lugers being collectable, would not know Shattuck from Datig and could not care less. Most had match mags or 2. I just had a Imperial era Erfurt to clean and test for a guy who just was given the gun by family, and I have a guy here with a 1900 test gun, both have not a clue, as to value and could not care, and both guns have proper or matched mags. I could go on with stories, but I do not feel that 1 or even both mags matching is that rare. But as time goes on and guns "come to light", be real careful as to what is being offered as original.

Funny that we have a man here in Still who has performed definitive studies of Lugers from 30 years back and knows for a fact that as of that time matching mags were a rare commodity. And you can be sure that some folks here will still refuse to believe it.

As for me, thank you for letting me know that the vast majority of "matching mags" are not.

Dwight, Most EG reworked lugers were put away with 2 magazines that the EGs had renumbered to the pistol with a larger die set than the original and usually without a suffix letter. These mags are fairly easy to spot, as most are of new EG manufacture Schmeisser type and either unmarked or marked 2/1001 on the side, although any type of original mag may be found, with a renumbered bottom. I suspose some day, these will be valued similar to the Weimar Police reworks, with renumbered mags. I've never seen a rightous M1900 with a "matching" mag, since these were issued with plain unmarked wood bottoms, including the US test pistols. Re Jan's comments about phony mag renumbering: most that I've seen have been crudely done using the wrong die sets. Those that look fairly close, have the numbers and/or suffix letter engraved rather than stamped, so it's a good idea to check these closely with high powered magnification. Tom H.

A thought to ponder... as more and more of our great WW2 vets are passing away (last I heard we are losing about 1200 a day) their family heirlooms are being brought out in public. Among these heirlooms are Luger war souvenirs that they personally took from their captives... I don't think it is much of a stretch that these guns taken from the person they were originally issued to, could possibly still be with their originally numbered magazines... When Datig made his statement about numbered mags (50 years ago) many of the guns now available were still hidden in the tops of family closets wrapped in an oiled cloth. I know of two that are still stored that way by the family of the heroes that brought them home. Are we seeing more matching magazines... yes. Are they ALL fraudulent? I don't think so. I think that the era we live in, of fast and wide reaching communications...just like this forum make for more public awareness of such things... there will always be the jerks who will defraud us of our hard earned money... but don't lump all the matching mags into the same group... Many of them are honest and genuine IMHO.

Police rework seems to be acceptable provenance for Lugers. Do magazines renumbered for police reissue meet the criteria for "matching"?

Lugerdoc, thanks for the answer on the EG issue. Do -these- magazines meet the criteria for "matching"?

(Btw, I tend to agree with you about the eventual acceptability of EG rework as acceptable provenance, probably much sooner than any of us think.)

--Dwight

I think John is pretty much on target... an awful lot of luger rigs have surfaced in the last 30+ years.... when I started collecting, I was lucky to find a luger with even the correct mag & holster, BUT, I didn't have any money at that time, and when things were slow, I'd hang out with the guys that did! I saw some wonderful stuff change hands at those tables, I can remember several complete matching rigs that were right as rain...... brand new K98k's, 100% pp's and ppk's...it was there, but it always went to the guys with big pockets.... it didn't matter to me, as I was quite happy to get the ones I got!! Also, I agree with Tom on the restamped mags, they're are very easy to spot... if you can just keep youself from making up some kind of rationalization or excuse to buy it, you'll be ok!
Knowledge is the key.... get past the novice collector thing, arm yourself with knowledge! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

One mag that I have not seen boosted with added numbers is the Imperial Navy Concentric. I guess they would be too hard to do for the extra bucks the numbers would bring. The Imperial Navies I have with matching number mags are unquestionably of the correct era and the graceful script, evenness and uniformity of wear and, yes, smell convince me each time I fondle one.

Tom A

Hi John S,

I am not so sure that the true vet-bring back guns have a higher chance of having a matching mag.

Some time ago on the old board it was reported or speculated that the Lugers magazines from guns captured at the end of the war may have been removed from the guns and stored into piles or crates separately from the piles of Lugers. That would make it highly unlikely that the corresponding magazines found their way back to the original Lugers from whence they came.

Of the ones captured on the battlefield and smuggled back to the US as contraband, the magazine may have matched when they were imported, if the German soldier didn't loose or damage the fragile aluminum or plastic based mags in the freezing mud of the Eastern front, etc.

Still and Datig clearly state that Lugers found in large collections 40 years ago did not normally sport matching magazines. It was rare.

Weren't all those large collections built upon vet-bring-back guns? Bear in mind those guns were acquired much closer to the end of WWII and thus were far less likely to have been altered or modified than guns coming to light now, 60 years after the war. Those guns may have had only one owner (the WWII Vet). Who knows how many hands the guns showing up now have been through?

Finally, the desirability of matching mags is relatively recent. I can easily imagine a combat vet in the '50s swapping his matching blued mag for his byf41 for the neat looking chrome-plated mag from his friends police luger (right before he added ivory grips and thought about nickle-plating the gun!)

All of this is my long winded way of saying I believe Still and Datig. I believe that what was true 40 years ago must be true today.

Jimbo,

That's why they call this a discussion forum... we all get to have opinions... While I agree that many Lugers may have come from a pile of captured weapons, I would venture a guess that there is just much of a chance that as many Lugers made it "home" under the field jacket of returning U.S. soldiers who removed them from their former owner either under protest, or with no resistance at all...

Just as some "facts" as Datig reported them to be, over 50 years ago, have come to be disputed by information or documents discovered after he published his wonderful book on the Luger Pistol, things change... such as the ready supply of Lugers available for purchase, and their origins... Who would have thought that a NEW supply of OLD Lugers would become available after the fall of the evil empire?

Neither theory could ever be proven by facts unless all the Lugers in private hands were collected and accounted for... and I hope that NEVER happens. (Sorry Tacfoley... you ought to move here!)

Nice jousting with you Jimbo...

[img]biggrin.gif[/img] We can just agree to disagree...

I still think some are missing the point, and to say that "what was true 40 years ago still is true today"??? I will tell a friemd of mine who has a Banner E/F with matched number mag, but in a bit rough condition, say 60%, to toss the mag as the collecting field will not credit it, and get a new production mag off Ebay. This gun was taken off the landing docks in New York by his MP father. I guess Vets at that time, post 45' could not just walk into NY with a pistol. Well as the story goes his father sliped the Banner in his back waist band and went about his duties. Took the gun home and for 50 years thay have shot in on a regular basis, explaines 60% condition. When he get ready and needs the funds to travel, as Egypt of all places is where he wants to go, the Banner is mine for a song....to bad the mag matches. And as I collect only Weimar police, I can't add it to my collection. I will accept Weimar police may in some minds be a sub-species, but where does having a matched/rework period gun become guns of a lesser god. A matching HS mag with *K, is not meeting whos "criteria", it meets mine and I collect for only me.

Policeluger, Here is my point. I have a 1915 Police. It has a matching numbered magazine. The magazine is a Hanel Schmeiser and has a wooden bottom with the correct serial, the *K, and the +.
It did not leave DWM with that magazine. When it got it is and will always be a manner of conjecture. I think it is Weimar, but who knows.

The German army at some point ceased to care if magazines matched. This appears to have been in WW1.

Collectors now care about matching magazines and suddenly there are lots of them. Some of them are original but in my opinion many of them are not. The Police reworks seem to have more of a chance of matching BUT a Schmieser numbered correctly to an Imperial Luger is a later replacement and shows that magazines were replaced with renumbers, ditto for the VOPO reworks.

I am not doubting your opinion on the pieces you have mentioned.

Heinz, thanks for your post. I have tried to state in other posts, that estate sales are becoming more common, at least for a few dealer I know and myself, and I seem to get one or two large estates a year to sell off. Now lets say that tomorrow is my day to go, my wife knows about what the value is on my guns. And she knows who to give them too to sell, so now with this modest, but proud collection hits the streets, are you going to feel that to many matched mag guns are showing up. But we need to be well read prior to starting to collect and invest. There area as we know fakes out there, thanks again.

A few years ago I picked up a 42 Mauser with two matching mags and holster as well as byf Mauser with two matching mags and holster. I bought them from a supposedly astute dealer in Virginia. He represented them as good pieces but common and rather ordinary. I bought the two for $1600.

The dealer said he had bought them from an estate in Pa. He had them in his case with each pistol in the other's holster with the other's matching mag. He was oblivious to fact that each had two matching mags.

These fellows were within a breath of becoming permanently seperated.

Amazing story George, funny but amazing [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

The amazing part is that I mentioned to him that I believed he had some of the lugers and holsters mixed up and he replied that they were already inventoried and he didn't have time to f--- with them.

I'm sure Tom Armstrong knows this dealer, he has a shop in Middleburg.

A couple of comments. First, I've had a few East German reworks pass through my hands and most have had two matching mags that were obviously not original to the pistols. I still have two; one as it came from the distributor and the other I had Hugh rebarrel to .30 Luger. The first one is an Erfurt with a replacement sideplate while all else matches. The two mags are matching but one has a high zinc content in the base as it's a dull color. The other mag has a bright aluminum base. The numbers stamped into the bases are larger and heavier than those on the gun. The second one has only one matching mag now and I believe the second mag may have been in the Finnish Luger I sold a few years back. (The Finn didn't have a mag when I got it.)

I've known my share of WW2 vets over the years and in numerous discussions with them it's clear that what was true for one vet wasn't necessarily true for the others. A machinegunner with the 42nd "Rainbow" Division told me he had captured a pristine Luger and was required to turn it in to the Quarter Master section. It "disappeared" and he believed the QM Sgt. stole it as he'd tried to buy it more than once. Those lucky enough to get their guns returned didn't get them until they reached stateside.

My neighbor, a vet of the 17th Airborne, could have mailed his guns back. He was going to mail an MP-40 but couldn't find a suitable box and didn't want to continue carrying it. He threw it away.

Perhaps by the war's end, the Army had standardized procedures for vets bringing back guns but it seems to have varied by unit to some degree.

Hi,
As some of you may know, I mainly collect Lugers with 2 matching magazines. Jan Still is most certainly correct with his comments on matching magazines. Very few have the correct, original issued magazine. In other words, most matching two magazine rigs are FAKED.

The true, original rigs are drying up and are almost impossible to find these days, even with all the vets passing on.

And Tom A, they do FAKE the wood bottom Imperial navy magazines also.

I think most of the two matching magazine Lugers you find today have gone through a re-issue here in the states. There are people who study the magazine bases and that is what you need to do to protect yourself from being taken. The faked ones are sometimes easy to tell if you know the correct acceptance marks, pins and color of the pins, type of tubes, and ect. Trouble is the guys faking these also all know this and it is becoming harder and harder to tell the true examples from the really good faked ones. The good thing is that not too many of these guys are capable of doing this kind of work.

Another point of interest is the blank bottom magazines. You just do not find them anymore. The blank aluminium bottoms are the ideal item for these craftsmen as they do not have to do anything to them. The dies have been available for numerous years.

The only advice one can suggest is that you study and learn your stuff. Anytime you find a Luger with a matching magazine and especially two matching magazines, you had better give it an extra examination. Also, if both magazines are correct, you are going to pay a huge premium, which makes it especially tempting for the fakers.

Here is an example of a 1939 Banner E/C that I bought from a well known dealer about 10 years ago. It had two matching HS magazines with the blue tubes and the side logo's and convex pinned. The "W" on the base did not look correct to me, and the serial numbers looked to be a little smaller than normal, had 1 and 2, and had the E/C of the police on the base. I kept the Luger as I need that variation, but never felt the magazines were correct. Don Hallock produces a magazine list and on one of the lists, there was a blue rolled police magazine with #2 on it, my serial number, and the correct "W". I quickly disposed of the two HS magazines. The sad part of this story is that someone had taken two nice blank HS convex pinned, side logo magazines and ruined them. You guys have to start thinking that very few in the collecting business do it for the love of collecting, and the majority are in it strictly for the money. There are some good ones out there, but they are hard to find. Doug Smith of Portsmouth, Ohio has treated me especially well, to mention one. Good collecting and keep you guard up!

To George Anderson,

Yep I know the guy, regrettably. He is the one that when ever you mention his name to someone else who knows him, the reply is ALWAYS the same sentiment"What an A##hole!"

Tom A.

Would this be the guy & the gunshop with the poorly engraved set of Artillery Lugers, and a Navy Luger (or maybe it was one Artillery and two Navy's) all with poorly fitted ivory grips that the seller says once belonged to a German general and his brother ? [img]eek.gif[/img] and the asking price is about half the national debt?

Been there... seen that... what a crying shame and waste of three otherwise historical guns.

(Not General DWM Thor!)

John, no that would be Bob at the Powder Horn who is a Stand-Up guy. The fellow in the discussion is the shop east of him on Main Street. His name rhymes with one of the more common synonyms for rubber as used in locker room slang.

Bob told me on the phone about the "Mexican" engraved jobs he has on consignment and bemoaned the fact that the perpetrator had to do this to long barrels and a navy of all pieces.

He also indicated that the price reflected the stupidity of someone who would ruin these pistols. As I recall his goal in the transaction was some civil War gear that the "perp" had.

thanks for the clarification George... You really have to see those engraved Lugers to feel the depth of the loss and damage... but make sure you haven't eaten first.

John S., do you ever find anything at the Clark Brothers outside of Warrenton? I've stopped there a few times over the years on my way to MD but they didn't have any Lugers.

Policeluger, I would would trust your collection :-) But not everybody's.

Dwight, you started a great rabbit with this thread.

kind regards, Heinz

Doubs, I have never stopped there but will the next time I pass through that area... I'll let you know if they have anything of interest.