SUGGESTIONS FOR QUALIFYING ANSWERS
 

I am a beginner at collecting, but I am reading a lot of books, including Mr Stills.

I think his comment on qualifying and citing your sources is a great suggestion. I would definitely help in sorting out the truth and in correcting errors in references.

Good suggestion Jan.

I have seen some really good information here this last couple of months, and try to copy the good useful information to a Word file.

Jan,

Thank you for your sensible suggestion and your continued patient commentary. I believe that given time this Forum can evolve and mature in an appropriate direction.

--Dwight

As always, Jan, excellent advice. A reference, source or personal experience is always good to give. And if it's an opinion, say so along with the reasons why.

Jan,

Thanks for your insightful posting regarding answering questions for members... It is truely great advice...

I hope by the end of this week to have enough time to communicate with you directly about your suggestions.

There has been a lively discussion going on over on a 1911 Forum concerning information found in a Colt automatic pistol book by Bady. It is chock full or incorrect and outdated information, but if that is the only Colt book someone owns they have no inkling as to what is wrong and what is right as it "says so right there in the book". Much of what we have learned about Lugers, or any other pistol for that matter, has come about through a sharing of information. I believe that if anything that is posted is just absolutely incorrect, there will be follow-up posts to correct the information. I believe that on the old forum there were more heated discussions when opinions differed rather than facts differing. I can't imagine anyone that would not want an incorrect statement they had made to be politely corrected and explained.

Johnny,

You make valid points... there has to be a balance. There are so many "sources" that one must digest all available information and then make a value judgement on the best possible answer to posed questions.

No one knows everything about Lugers... but sharing information as we do on this forum is the best available information on the Luger pistol. Jan's suggestions that members make a recognizable distinction in their posts between opinion and substantiated fact is also valid.

I wish that I had more time this week to devote to this discussion, but other obligations require that I cut this short...

I believe that the forum should be conducted on an informal basis... if we ever have to resort to the rigidity of parliamentary procedure just to discuss varying opinions, then I fear the forum will lose it's appeal for most members...

that is my http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/2cents.jpg for now...

More at a later time friends...

Jan,

Thank you kindly for posting the correct information. I realize it can be frustrating wading through all the information that passes through this forum and your patience as a recognized authority on Luger history is greatly appreciated.

All members should take care that the source of their reference information is made known in their post so the accuracy of their input can be judged in context. Please re-read Jan's advice at the top of this thread.

As there will always be new members (at least we hope there will) there will always be mistakes when answering questions... Everyone is encouraged to answer questions to the best of your ability and within the scope of your experience and printed reference materials...The best we can do is make corrections when we find them.

This method of discussion may not be perfect, but it is a far cry from 10 years ago when the only way to address this many Luger enthusiasts was to get published in a commercial gun magazine... The forum can be equated to a convention where everything that all 620 plus attendees says can actually heard by all other attendees... and is documented for all time ( at at least a real long time )

The problems that exist on this forum are identical to the kinds of growing pains that exist on every internet discussion forum. I don't think we will ever solve them all, but what we have here is better than you will find anywhere else at this scale of information dissemination. It is not like we can all go to the "other" lugerforum if this one is a temporary or recurring irritation. For the time being, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Thanks again for enduring along with the rest of us.

Post content edited for inappropriate language in violation of the forum decorum and Rennlist terms of service-John Sabato/Site Admin If you have a problem with this Heydrich you may contact me via private message.

Sorry for the attitude, maybe my parents put my swing too close to a brick wall when I was a kid or something.

This is NO apology...and it doesn't excuse your poor behavior or violation of the terms of service for use of this board. You may have any attitude that you want, but how you express your attitude on THIS discussion board will either comply with the forum decorum and the terms of service or DON'T do it here - This applies to you and every other member here-JS

Heydrich,
I believe that an inappropriate remark by Herb is what drove the direction of the thread. [quote]Perhaps he did not consult with Jan Still before publishing his book.
<hr></blockquote>
This set the tone of the exchange, and I believe that you would have replied similarly as Mr. Still.

Heydrich,

You owe Jan Still a public and explicit apology.

Be a man!

What is going on here?...why are Jan Still's postings all blank?

Orv Reichert

What is going on?

Can someone please explain in plain English?

Luke

Hello Luke et al,

I think the blank posts from Jan are because something *really* offended him and he took the liberty of being a member of this forum to exercise his rights to excise his previous posts.

This is his right and, as a very senior member of the collecting fraternity and the guy who has more published works on German pistols in print than anyone else on the planet, his absolute perogative.

Somehow, I guess there are lots of forum members who don't get it.

To have the knowledge and experience of Jan, Klaus,the Judge, etc. available gratis, is a tremendous freebie. You want your Luger appraised and evaluated by Sothbey's or a similar house, well, its going to cost you several hundred for the service plus the shipping each way. And guess what? You are not going to get the opinion of a Luger expert. You will get the opinion of a staff member "German Firearms Analyst." That opinion and $1 will get you a cup of coffee some places.

Folks, please recognize what an asset you have (had?) here. This was the greatest collection of Luger knowledge and experience in the world, yet a few needed to validate their own erronous theories or to attempt to validate one that was commonly held, but incorrect, and did so by denigrating the research and expertise of others who have gone before. On their nickle and without the benefit of the web and internet communications.

No wonder serious Luger guys quit; Why should they put up with the hassle of nimrods offering gunshow dealer explanations who refuse to consider the research that has been done.

Grrrr, makes me want to go back to my first love, 'brooms!

Tom A.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

Evidently Jan felt that the forum was not working towards a collecting and working together goal. I beleive he has decided to leave the forum. (I hope I am wrong, but I know that none of the moderators would delete a users posts in this manner).

I wish he'd left his old posts, but I am sure he has his reasons. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Tom A's comments are right on target.

[quote] Folks, please recognize what an asset you have (had?) here. This was the greatest collection of Luger knowledge and experience in the world, yet a few needed to validate their own erronous theories or to attempt to validate one that was commonly held, but incorrect, and did so by denigrating the research and expertise of others who have gone before. On their nickle and without the benefit of the web and internet communications. <hr></blockquote>

I talked to Jan, and he does not intend to return. How sad.

Gentlemen, do we grasp the import and gravity of what we have done?

If we cannot keep Jan Still among us, it demonstrates that we are but an ignorant bunch of rowdies who are full of ourselves, rude, and inconsiderate.

Tom A. et al

If Jan has elected to depart, this is truly a loss for all of us on this Forum.

First Garfield, now Jan !

Sad day, indeed.

Luke

Well...I certainly don't blame Jan! Why bother to try to help those who don't want to know or are just trying to validate their favorite theory without any basis in fact?

Orv Reichert

The truth is not always the same as the majority decision. --Pope Jean Paul

Hi Orv.....

I agree with you. If I had the ability to save Jan's first post, I would have - as it made a lot of sense. In short, it was to "post what you know - and "how" you know it". I think as well, and I could be interpreting here - it is fine to post what you "think you know" based on personal observtion, but if you had a "source" for that information as well - simply post that source as well.

From my perspective - Jan's comment made a lot of sense. For example - if the source of my info is wrong, outdated or not proved - I'd want to know that. Also, I don't think Jan's suggestion takes away in the least - the "banter" that takes place in this Forum at all.

Please come back Jan!!! I'm not sure who said what to offend you, if that is the case (as Tom A. speculates in his post), but you would be sorely missed in this Forum if you were to leave. Maybe I'm speaking for myself - but my bet is I'm speaking for most of the folks here....

John D.

All,

Someone whose name I do not remember once described the evolution of knowledge as:
1. that which no one else knows
2. that which a few others know
3. that which more know
5. that which many think they know
6. that which no one knows

This is appropo of the forum. Some pissants among the group feel that in their ill-informed state of nature they can insist on absolute proofs and signs from heaven that their favorite theories are not correct.

Such nincompoops are driving away the only sources of truth available.

Perhaps there is a valid reason for a new collector to be snockerred out of a few thousand (or tens of thousands)of dollars...maybe it will dampen the ill-informed arrogance I have seen and let some folks enjoy learning by experience.

And if it sounds (reads?) like I have a case of the jaws, we,, I do.

What a goddamm shame to destroy such a valuable resource.

Tom A.
Who spent the weekend with a group of W.W.II fighter pilots and enjoyed every second of it.
cs thumbs down [img]mad.gif[/img]

I have expressed my personal regrets to Jan via personal email... He has not responded. And yes, he personally deleted the contents of all of his posts since we changed formats.

I agree with all who have expressed regrets at Jan's decision to leave... There is no way to make up for the damage this incident caused. Does anyone see any difference in the type of behavior from that which has been displayed by the Washington DC sniper... No regard for the lives and feelings of others.

How unfortunate for the majority of the members of this forum that one member who took pride in an ungentlemanly and arrogant comment has precipitated the greatest loss this forum has experienced since it was founded in 1998.

I seriously doubt if a public apology to Jan by the party responsible would change his mind about self imposed exile now, but I hope Heydrich is man enough to apologize publicly and that Jan will be gracious enough to accept.


This is indeed a sad day in OUR Forum's history.

-John Sabato

John D,
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> "I'M JUMPING MAD"
Let us all join with John D. To ask that our Esteemed Author Jan Still Accept Our Appologies for any mistreatment that He perceived to be pointed at him and return to the Forum, We all will suffer a great loss by his absence !
I agree whole heartedly with the opinion that this Forum is a place for the exchange of knowledge gained through experience.
And since we are faced with the fact "That Some Come Not To Learn", But TO LOUDLY SPEAK with the Demonstrated Intent of Forcing their Shortsighted and Tunnel Visioned Theories to the forefront at the expense of deriding and insulting the Recognised and more Experienced and Knowledgible Contributors.
Then we are again bordering on the brink of the Chasm That The Old Forum Tumbled Into and that we are now trying to pull ourselves up and out of.
..
::::ITS TIME THAT ANY ONE OF US WHO DO NOT MAINTAIN OUR POSTS WITHIN THE BOUNDRYS OF GOOD MANNERS BE OPENLY REPREMANDED BY NAME AND BE REQUIRED TO PASS OUR COMMENTS THROUGH A "FILTER for PROPRIETY" BEFORE IT IS POSTED FOR ALL TO SEE.::::::
I DO NOT IN ANY WAY INTEND THAT THIS FILTER PROCESS IN ANY WAY ALTER THE TONE OF DIFFERENCE OF OPINION BUT MERELY MAKE THE LANGUAGE USED BE ACCEPTABLE WITHIN THE BOUNDRYS OF GOOD TASTE !!
..
After a period of demonstrating that they can speak civily and handle their posts in good manner they should be reinstated to once again post freely.
..
And this should be applied to each and every one who accepted the Forum Decorum as a pre-requsite to membership herein.
I know some will say were not children to be chastized in this manner,
To which I answer, If we act like children then let us be accepted as we act and treated in like manner.
IN OTHER WORDS "GROW UP OR GET OUT AND LEAVE THE FORUM TO BE USED AS INTENDED BY OUR GOOD HOST JOHN D, YOU ARE NOW IN HIS HOUSE AS HIS GUEST, ACT LIKE IT" <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Now lets have a time of cooling off!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
ViggoG <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Hi,
Very sad that this has reached this level, but this has been developing for some time now. In the past there was a post about the ego's of collectors, and then repeatedly posts with wrong information from the older books, and still lots of the "what if" or pure speculation. Jan wrote me right after Herb's comments and said this was getting to be just too much bull**** to put up with. Jan is a really class act and he likes and demands things to be precise, not half ass'd. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned by all with this: to respond with more consideration, and to know what you are talking about if you are going to answer something. Participation is great and is needed, but one has to be more precise and accurate with answers. After all, isn't the sharing of correct information what this Forum is suppose to be all about?

I wish Jan stayed. I want to sincerely thank him for being here for a while. I can understand his leaving. He tried to help us. But I'm sure he has several places to go besides here if he gets in the mood to be abused by ignorant people.

I think Jan would thrive on reasoned debate using personal experiences or documented sources. Too bad we couldn't stick with that level.

****************************************

Come back, Jan! Not everyone here just likes to hear themselves talk. We need your help. There is so much to learn.

But if you don't come back, we understand and thank you so much for trying to help us.

Jim Ferreira

Note to John D. & the moderators,

It's funny. If you accept Jan as "The Master" as far as comprehensive Luger variations goes, losing him from this forum is a loss on par with that faced when you decided to close the previous forum. There are others here who have solid knowledge in one or another area of Lugers, but in Jan there was authoritative expertise. To watch him contact another expert in translating some arcane unit marking and come back with an answer, a real true probably dead accurate answer, not a guess, was a thing of beauty.

Ah, well gentlemen. Life goes on.

Luger's forever! Collect them. Shoot them. Study them. Whatever. It's an addiction that will outlive Mr. Still. It will outlive all of us. The fascination will live on in your grandchildren and their grandchildren.
Thank goodness the freedom of America provides a right to own them. Enjoy!

I for one will miss the knowledge that Mr. Still has brought to this forum. He did his best to help everyone whether they were a seasoned collector or just buying their first Luger. I know that his help was invaluable to all. We learned so much from this gentleman. It is definetely a sad day for all. Mr. Still I would like to thank you for all that you have done to help everyone here. It is my hope that one day you will decide to come back and be a part of this again. Again thanks.
Sincerely,
Sidney F. Gariss

Well,
I feel almost responsible for this, this whole started to take the "snowball effect" after some posts in the thread I starded!!!

Jan,
Your wealth of information will be sorely missed!

Regards,Brandon

[quote]Originally posted by Brandon:
<strong>Well,
I feel almost responsible for this, this whole started to take the "snowball effect" after some posts in the thread I starded!!! Regards,Brandon</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brandon, don't beat yourself up over this. It had nothing whatsoever to do with you. It's been an on-going problem and if it hadn't happened in this thread, it would have happened elsewhere.

I've expressed my regrets to Jan by private e-mail and, the same as John S., haven't received a reply.

The public disparaging of Jan's research, knowledge and excellent books by one individual, followed by the immature, grade-school style breast-beating of another was more than Jan could take. Jan obviously doesn't suffer fools well.

Jan is one of the world's leading experts on Lugers... period! It takes many years of great effort at no small cost to acquire his level of knowledge and expertise. The members of this forum had access to his hard-earned experience for nothing more than the price of asking a serious question and being willing to accept a serious answer.

Jan was also one of the few links the forum had to the research and knowledge of other world-class Luger experts. You can bet that Jan is, or has been, in touch with them on a regular basis. Other serious students of the Luger around the world have chosen for whatever reason not to participate on this forum. Perhaps now we know why. Which acknowledged expert wants their word to be questioned, ridiculed and berated by someone without the credentials to do so?

John Sabato has done the world of Luger collectors a great service with this forum. He and all of the moderators and all of the members who try to learn. The disrespect shown to Jan is also disrespect for the efforts of John to provide an invaluable service to Luger-lovers at any stage of interest.

It's a damned shame and this whole affair disgusts me.

Walker Smith, Byron, GA (Doubs)

Jan, please do not leave the Forum. Your expertise, insight, experience, and being a nice person is just too hard to find these days. From time to time we all get our hide scuffed. Bear with the members of the Forum, we're all on the same side having one mutual interest. We would like you to remain with us, many thanx..... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Dear All,
I am sorry to hear that Mr. Jan C.Stills will no longer be on the forum and ALL of his knowleadge
that WAS on this forum will no longer be avalible
to the members(except in his books). I joined this forum in June or July of 2002 when I started
to buy Lugers because of All the Expert infomation
that was here to find. Now we have LOST TWO EXPERTS because some people felt that they knew more then the Experts and had to use childish behavior to get THEIR point across. I personally
feel that the trouble makers should be the ones to leave and not those who have shone that they
can follow rules and have infomed discussions.
I can not say the things I would like to say as
that will make me as bad as those I am mad at.
My only hope is that we can fix this before it gets completly out of control. If Jan or Garfield
ever come back it will be a god send for us Newbies on this forum.

My apologies to the Administrator for my rant.

God Bless

A tragic loss to all Luger collector members of the forum. My one small consolation is that I still have his marvelous books and no one can ever take them away from me.

Guys,
I was going to express a loss. A change of mind. We've all been professionals in an occupation of some sort (military, industrial, academic, public safety, ect.). We've had buddies get mad and stomp out of the room out of frustration. Didn't the good ones come back?.


We accept some and give them the lectern because we respect their knowledge and experience. When taking that lectern the speaker has to acknowledge ,to himself, that some listeners are misinformed, ignorant, braindead or just can't learn in the way of normal people.
I have made comments and been rebuked by several on this forum. I then acknoweledged their expertise and expressed my appreciation for setting me straight. We've all been there. I would not like to think that a good researcher, experienced professional, ect., is not capable of the difficult task of mentoring. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Some of this goes back to what I was taught when writting papers for various science classes. Make clear what you know and can prove, what you think is so (and why), and what you got from another source and what that source was.

And do it all POLITELY! There is enough bad in this world for us on this forum to add to it by not being polite with each other even if we disagree.