?? for the pros.
 

This is a hypothetical situation. 'A' buys and all original Luger which has about 25% finish remaining and would grade in the NRA area of Very Good and pays $750 for it. On the other side of town 'B' buys an identical original Luger with little or no finish remaining for $200. 'B' decides to refinish it due to the sad looking condition. He spends $200 to get it professionally restored, not just reblued, but restored, dings, rust, etc. removed, and all appropriated parts strawed. 'B' now has a very nice Luger, fully restored and has invested $400, in it. According to NRA grading it is now rated as Good as it has been reblued. This particular Luger generally retails for $2,000 in a factory new condition. For your answer, assume that both Lugers were 100% matching, had no replacement parts and were equal in mechanical condition. If both 'A' and 'B' decide to sell their Lugers, What prices could be realized by both, any why do you think so? Disreguard the purists, which one would you prefer and why?

I would prefer the honest pistol.

If I wanted a shooter, there are modern-made fascimilies.

Hey, I don't think I'm any pro here Herb, but here is my 2 cents.

I would take the reblued, although normally I'd take the other one with real honest wear. If you can pick up a cheap Luger for 200, then spruce her up for another couple of hundred, I say go for it.

I would take a gun with honest hard use for $400 over the beat up and reblued one tho. (but not if I could get one for $200)...

Herb,

What price would be realized by both?

A's is still worth $750. Unless he paid more than, or less than market price and is going to get his comeuppance when he sells.

B is getting a smokin bargain on the purchase and I think Thor charges slightly more for a rust blue much less easing out dings and strawing. Now if he had Thor do the restoration I think he would have an $1100.00 or $1200.00 pistol to sell. At least that is what Thor is selling some of his for. I think they are pretty enough to warrent it.

What would I prefer? I think the restored piece if it is done the way Thor does it. 25% finish is a little less than I would want in a $750.00 Luger. Blueing is put on there for a reason and if 75% of the protective coating is missing there is not enough to protect it and not enough to tell a person what the pistol originally looked like. As you must know by now I am not a purist but a practicalist. I was once a parachutist but the pay was lousy. Jerry Burney

Why the $550 difference in price if you want to compare how each did on their purchase? If B had also spent $750 on his purchase then paid $200 to have it blued and strawed, he would probably get a little over half his investment back, while A with his unrestored Luger might lose only $100 or so. Wouldn't that be the only fair comparison?
Maybe I am out of touch, but I just haven't seen reblued common Lugers selling in the $1100/1200 range. You can buy mid 90% original common lugers for that kind of money, and nice 1920's era commercials for almost half that.

I'd like four of your 200 dollar lugers please.
100% matching of course. No need to wrap 'em I'll just pick 'em up at your place.

Johnny, re-read the question carefully. 'A' did not refinish the Luger, only 'B' did and only spent $200 for a total investment of $400. If you refer to the available price guides, a reblued Luger will grade NRA good. In that condition it should command the corresponding price. 'B' decides that he will sell his Luger for $750 dollars as does 'A' to get his investment back to but another more desireavle Luger. Given the choice, which would you consider buying? My intent here is to determine just what a Luger in 'Good' condition will bring and to determine what a person desireing a Luger would pay based upon a certain condition and just what is that desireable condition. Mark, when I find them at that price I will let you in on the source! (Maybe) and you are welcome at 'my place' anytime.

Johnny, I have sold 7-8 reblued Lugers for between $1000-$1245 EACH in the past two months. The problem with this idea is a steady supply of beater Lugers (shooters that have taken a beating) is not really there unless you want to pay around $600 for them. http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=5340706
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=5245610
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=4577644
A couple of examples. This even surprises me, but I guess people will pay for nice shooters.

On one of the auctions an Ithaca 1911A1 recently went to over $2300, but you can buy them in really nice condition in the $900/1100 range. Apparently the bidder was satisfied with his purchase and thought he got a good buy, but he would have a hard time recouping half his purchase price unless he sold it to the guy he outbid.

Why must a person have the 'old' metal upon which to reblue?
Why have the 'old' trigger on which to pull?

There is something here! Is it wishing that we could have an old Luger in much better shape than we have (without the investment) and hoping that the casual admirer will not be cognizant of a restoration or rude enough to mention it? Is a restoration job procured and performed to fool the unwashed masses who do not own Lugers?

And something to consider: Does the owner of an old honest gun decide that the original finish has no value? Does he want the admiring public to assume that the pistol had never been touched?

Wes,

I have avoided these arguments in the past, but I'm going to risk an answer to you. Certainly, even shooters (me too) will admit that original fine condition guns (like Lugers) are more desirable than refurbished ones just like original antique cars, etc. in fine condition are more desirable than rebuilt or restored ones.

However, items that are used (like clothes, cars, and guns) do eventually show wear and after a time, lots of wear. I must admit that I like nice (finishes on cars and guns, clothes, etc.). Most of us eventually replace worn clothes and cars that are becoming shabby rather than restore, repair or rebuild old ones. We might not do this if we could refinish or rebuild them like we can old guns.

I have been shooting for 59 years. Shooting handguns for 47 years. It's great fun and a non firing gun in my opinion is worthless. An unused gun is a shame (to me, not to a historian--I admit there is a difference).

I admired Lugers as neeeat guns for 30 or 40 years before buying one (a refinished shooter) last spring. It isn't that I couldn't afford one before this, it's just that I chose to spend my hobby money shooting more modern guns (and Colt SAAs--talk about expensive) rather than buying Lugers. I am completely satisfied with my first purchase, but I became enamored with Thor's refinished guns recently and decided to blow some more $$ on one of these.

Again, I am a shooter not a collector or historian. I have no interest in German history or artifacts, but Lugers are neeeat. You couldn't give me a 98 Mauser or P-38 (they don't turn me on like a Luger does--sorry RK). Sorry if you can't see my point of view, but my gun from Thor satisfies my needs (desires) while saving me thousands of $$ for ammo to enjoy shooting my toys.

When I am through enjoying my hobby, my guns are unlikely to be mistaken for original unrefinished collector guns. Who knows, I might even have Hugh put S&W revolver sights and a long barrel on Thor's product if it suits me. (I won't tell him, he might cry.) Even Hitler didn't have one of these.

Anyway, if it won't shoot out it goes (no matter how pretty). I have no concern for the guy who buys my guns except that I hope he enjoys them. Also, I have no concern for whoever admires my guns--I bought them for me and as long as I admire them I will be happy.

Age,

Then, why not just shoot modern knock-offs of the Luger? The materials are better. The engineering is the same. Mauser even used the same tooling in the production of their 1970's versions. There are stainless steel versions to be had. Why modify the old iron?

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>Then, why not just shoot modern knock-offs of the Luger?...Why modify the old iron?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because you can still find a cheap Luger and take it to your friendly local rebluer to have it buffed&blued cheaper than you can buy a '70s Mauser or a stainless, when you can find one, and not have to go through the whole buy-from-another-state hassle to boot.

Not that I am recommending this course of action, mind you, just providing one answer to your question.

--Dwight

Hell, I just sold a 1970's AE for $800. That is much better than a $800 redo.

You pose an interesting question. I myself have
wanted a luger for forty years. This summer I decided to have one. My knowledge at that point
was near zero. I began searching around Denver
gun shops, pawn shops. I found a 70's Mauser
swiss style which I nearly bought. I went to
Crossroads gunshow recently and found my 1941
Mauser. This gun excites me more than the other.
Sense of History perhaps.

I agree Mark, A new Mauser, stainless steel is meaningless to me. I consider it to be like a Smith and Wesson revolver or something . There is truly somthing special about a pre 1945 Luger. I can't tell you what it is exactly but it's like art. You know it when you see it.Sort of like a masters painting compared to a print. Jerry Burney

Yeah what he said!

Wes,

Dwight's answer is close to what I would say. I don't see modern Lugers very often. I paid $500 for my shooter which someone else had already nicely reblued. I have no interest in having even this gun refinished (again). My first purchase at $500 was still not cheap in my opinion--but it let me find out what I really thought about Lugers. I find that I like them, but if I found that I didn't, the first one would probably be traded for something else.

Maybe your 1970s AE would have been just as appealing to me as Thor's gun, I don't know.
Anyway, some gun purchases are not totally logical. I already had my 1936 shooter when I bought Thor's product. Did I need another? Hardly? Well it's fun looking, buying, shooting, etc. (Maybe even selling--I don't do that often enough).

AGE!! I took the 1915 DWM out tonight, ran a patch of CLENZOIL down the bore, and a fresh light coat on the bluing and strawing! NICE LUGER DUDE! Getting it ready for it's new home!http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman...TER1915DWM.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman...ORE1915DWM.jpg

[quote]There is truly somthing special about a pre 1945 Luger. I can't tell you what it is exactly but it's like art <hr></blockquote>

Jerry, you have finally put it to words! That something special is embodied by the whole pistol and is captured by its appearance. It speaks to you.

With a restoration, it ceases speaking.

[quote] Sort of like a masters painting compared to a print <hr></blockquote>

Thor's 1915 just spoke to me! It said take me, hold me, caress me, care for me for I am again beautiful just as the day I was born, I have lived a long and eventful life and now I am reborn and ready to fulfill my destiny!! (See what Kentucky whisky does to ya??)

Thanks Herb! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Apparently I had no idea of what reblued Lugers were now selling for as pointed out to me by Ted, but just for funs I went to the Simpson Ltd. site and found any number of 90% +- range original finish pistols for sale in the $1000 range. Are we seeing a trend here in new buyers paying more for refinished pistols than original specimens, or new buyers relying strictly on internet auctions. I think we had seen a trend in the lower grade and reblued Lugers pushing the value of the better original Lugers up, but when did the reblued pistols pass the original pistols in desireability and price?
One of the first pistols in the DWM list is a Model 1900 99%/99% professional restoration for $2995. Right under it is a Model 1900 95%/80% original finish for $4995. This is about the ratio I would expect to see between an original and a reblued Luger, but apparently this no longer holds true.

Hey Herb,

Don't drool on my gun. That's mine that Thor is showing off (I think). I haven't even had my hands on it yet (I've been out of state for 3+ months and he is holding it for another week or two).

Well guys, I am excited by it too--hope I like it in person as well as I do from Thor's pictures.

Johnny,

Don't tell Thor about $3000 refinished guns until mine is delivered. His price wasn't cheap, but nothing like that.

Wes and Johnny,

As I said above, not all purchases are logical--I guess I was seduced by this sexy 1915 DWM. Herb seems to understand.

Thor,

Thanks for keeping my baby well oiled--I'll take it off of you hands soon. Don't wear off that new blue.

Wes, I don't know...With a re-blue it stops speaking. Sticking with my anology of a masters painting I would have to say they all need a cleaning after a hundred years and sometimes they look as good or better after the cleaning. I have to admit Thor's restorations look a lot better than most of those pistols when they arrive at his shop. I would not advocate re-blueing of a pistol that has adequate blue but some of these pistols need a new coat of paint. I found a 1908 Army Luger at the Houston gun show that was chromed. After the chrome was electronically removed and a new blue job applied it saved a beautiful Luger from the junkpile. If you did not know it's history you would fondle and drool.

You must have a lot of time on your hands or an obscure degree...Charon and the river Styx? Where do you get this stuff? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Jerry,
I think Wes lives to high up on the mountain, that thin air kinda goes to his head every once in a while! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[quote] Charon and the river Styx? Where do you get this stuff? <hr></blockquote>

Jerry,

This is difficult to answer, for a person has a tendency to inflate the truth placing himself in a better light or maybe try to appear more heroic in defeating adversity. So, in order to save myself embarassment, I will say that I have read, somewhat.

I have an SS Luger and have only fired 2 magazines thru it, in my opinion, it has NO class like the REAL ones.
Lonnie

I keep hearing that you collectors would rather have a Luger "than can talk", rather than a piece that has been totally refurbished. What would you say to a Luger that had killed several American soldiers, and then got transferred to a concentration camp where it then was responsible for the elimination of 14 Jewish men, 19 women, and 11 children while they knelt over an open trench? Is that the kind of history you crave? These pistols were made for one reason, to kill another human being, in war or in conquest. Their history is of no concern to me, my M-16 wrote it's own history in VietNam, and I assure you I have no desire to relive it, and you probably don't want to hear it. I'll take a good refurbish any time over one with the blood stains of whatever happened in it's history. Collecting the blood of dead soldiers or innocent political victims is not my bag.

Herb, Herb, these kind of discussions go to badddd places <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Anyway, no I would not buy a Luger that had a bad history with it, but I have to expect that a gun that is designed to pop caps during war has taken both lives.

So, in some regards I prefer the WW1 guns, to the WW2, although I have both. But, and here is where I get wishy washy, the history of the gun is my main concern, its looks another, but what if'ing it can lead to sleepless nights. So, yes its possible gory history is history. I think that any countries guns have been used wrongly. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Herb,

The subject is perfectly legitimate. I do not collect WWII Lugers and am very reluctant to own a WWI Luger. I love commercials and transition pistols.
I almost got myself banned from the forum on this subject for expressing my very strong views.
Those who collect these pieces are welcome to them as collectables.

Well, for a subject that surfaces here frequently, this thread certainly has brought out some new perspectives to me. So I guess I'll add my two (inflated) cents.

I've always appreciated art and history. About a year ago, I visited Rome. They are rebuilding parts of the Coliseum, but you still can feel the undiluted history with each footstep. Then I saw the Sistine Chapel. After a full restoration, it looks like it was painted yesterday ... and when they were removing the centuries of grime, they forgot that that future patina may have been in the mind of the artists who painted it. I now much prefer looking at old prints of Michaelangelo's work.

I equally admire all Lugers, from as-new examples to Hugh's Armadillo Specials. But I find the strongest personal attraction to guns which were handled and used -- whether commercial or military models. A gun which sat untouched in a box on a shelf, or in a desk drawer, gives me no sense of history (right or wrong). It is simply a beautifully made, but unused, tool that time passed by, leaving no mark. The patina that comes with years of careful use proves that this inanimate tool was a witness to history.

My matching-numbered '41 byf is the only WWII veteran in my modest collection (and at present the only Luger). I know that from December 1941 until, at the latest, April 1945, it may have been used to further a goal I find repugnant.

Then it found its way to the U.S. Someone reblued it and fitted a set of uncheckered walnut grips, and it came into my family in the early 1950s. For decades, it was carried along on countless range visits and deer-hunting trips. It is fairly worn now, and a coupla years ago I talked to Ted about making it pretty again .... but I've come to realize that all that wear is honest, and is part of my family's legacy.

I do not know how it may have been employed in the first few years of its existence, but I do not dwell on that. Instead, I look at its half-century of service with my family. The browning of the grip straps came from our sweat; no one has ever remarked on the proof symbols or what they represent.

My Luger's history may not be typical. At times I do I wish it had never been reblued; but perhaps that wiped the slate clean for us. It is worth far more to me than if it had been a pristine Luger which sat untouched in our safe. The market will disagree, but this one will never be sold anyway.

How's that for a long-winded endorsement of shootable Lugers?

And to see if I can figure out to post a pic, here's my then-fiancee (now wife) shooting the byf about 20 years ago. (Yes, she now knows better than to shoot without safety glasses.)
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/memb...rendaluger.gif

Tony, that is probably as good of a summation as you could ask for. People collect/acquire Lugers for lots of reasons, and each is personal. There is no right or wrong, only what appeals to you. No one should criticize anyone else for their motives or preferences. This is a hobby for all Luger enthusiasts. Go for what you like, damn the torpedos and full speed ahead.

Hey Tony K... I have seen that photo before... a long time ago on the old forum, maybe even on the first forum that was based in Taiwan....Haven't heard much from you for a long time. Welcome back.

Hello again, John! Yes, I posted it back in the oriental days ... I've been regularly visiting the forum (and learning!) off and on ever since.

Though a lifelong Luger shooter, I've been blessed with an example that has always worked flawlessly -- a testament to its design and construction -- so I've never needed to ask for assistance here. OTOH, the level of Luger knowledge and expertise ... and passion ... in these postings seems to grow exponentially, and way beyond mine, so I've been content to lurk, learn and greatly enjoy.

I guess a sincere thanks to you, to the other mods and to everyone here is long overdue!

Herb, You are putting the blame on an inanimate object when in reality it belongs with the people who perpetrated these horrible acts against humanity. This is a typical rookie liberal mistake....Surely as a good Republican you don't believe the pistol had anything to do with it? When you cook your breakfast you don't condem fire? It has caused untold harm but it is not to blame for arson. Just a thought...Jerry Burney [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Well I finally got it--the Luger that I bought from Thor a couple of months ago (see his post above dated Sept. 15th). The delay was my fault, not his, I don't have a FFL and was out of state for 3+ months.

The 1915 DWM is beautiful, we do have a master craftsman here as others have said before. Ted's work is excellent, I have seen lots of new Colts, S&Ws, etc. that weren't finished as well as his rework of an 87 year old Luger.

I haven't shot it yet, but shoot it I will. With regard to all of the discussion above about original German guns, refinished guns, and post WWII guns, I guess this old shooter loves them all and this example is great.

Also, as I have said before, I don't care much for history in general, especially German history and the Germans have done some very evil things. I wouldn't give a plug nickle for a P-38, 98 Mauser, authentic Luger holster, etc. However, the original German Luger designers really got the esthetics of the P-08 right and it's a neeeeat piece of hardware--actually a piece of art.

That said, the sights are small, the safety is awkward, and the trigger is heavy and gritty (on this one as well as my 1936 shooter). Neat as it is, it won't replace my 1911s for target or my S&W 3914 for carry.

Thanks AGE, I enjoyed that gun, it was darn accurate, it was so used to my safe, IT CRIED, when I pulled it out of its home for the last time, and now I bet it is missing me! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] lol have a good time with it, its a beaut!! <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Well I shot Thor's restored 1915 DWM on Tuesday. See his Sept. 15th post above. It not only looks great, it shoots great. Shot a 1 1/2" group at 50', centered in the black of a standard 50' NRA target--very satisfying. The trigger is a little gritty or this could be a target gun--even the sights aren't too bad.

Well anyway, I guess its a keeper. Went to a lot of trouble and expense to get it and it's neeeeat.

Sorry Wes, I like it and I guess I'll spend my $$ on what I like. Maybe I'd like some of the rare originals just as well, but I would be afraid to shoot them. If this one breaks or the finish wears (not likely in my lifetime) I'll just send it back to Thor for repairs.