Thor Rework Mark
 

How many of you think my rework mark is a good idea? How many of you would prefer if you sent me a Luger to restore to have me omit the restoration mark? The marking is three small red dots hidden in the inside of the magazine well and cannot be seen unless the magazine is removed? I sold 9 Lugers last year that were ALL marked with my mark and they sold for $945-$2000 each. All were advertised as reworked Lugers. Seems like from this the mark not only provides some additional history to the gun but also has some value.

Ted,
My zwei pfennigs...To paraphrase the great billiards artist, Minnesota Fats, when asked about why he didn't have a particular trophy, "If I'd a'wanted a rework mark I'd bought me one."
I think you do your customers a disservice with this, particularly since it is not done at customer request and I believe it detracts from the quality of your work.
Tom A.

Ted,

You've restored 5 Lugers for me, and all of them are testaments to your skills. If I had my preference, I would request that the rework mark be deleted because it can detract from the craftsmanship AND I'm know that I'm not out to cheat anyone in the future with one of your masterpieces. That being said though, a rework mark assures everyone (at least at the initial point of sale) that the piece is indeed reworked and folks can react accordingly.

Greg

For those that are relatively new to Luger collecting I highly recommend that you purchase Volume 24, number 4, of the 2002 issue of Man at Arms magazine which contains an excellant guide to spotting Luger restorations by Dave Norin a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. His article goes into great detail on how to spot restorations and is invaluable to the beginning, and veteran, collector. Even Ted leaves a telltale signature that can be spotted. Get it!
http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/oldissue.html
Scroll down to the issue near the bottom.

Have you started another thread too avoid the question??....do you mark your touch up work??, John S. states you mark everything, but do you....not a trick question, do you mark touch up work???????

Is the strawing of small parts considered "boosting" by members of this Forum?

Greg

Yes.

Thanks! ", or send me the small parts and for $85 I'll polish/re-straw and send parts back"
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c;f=7;t=000153

This whole issue has me rethinking my rework marks.

Greg, I think it is a form of boosting, but in my limited experience, grips (being cleaned, repaired for small chips) and it appears strawing seems almost acceptable by many (some) collectors...

Ed

AND I'm know that I'm not out to cheat anyone in the future with one of your masterpieces. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As we all know there will never be a satisfactory solution to this question. Once any reworking or boosting is performed there will always be a chance some sucker in the future will be taken. Any markings placed on the firearm to indicate work done for this purpose should readily be visible and stand out like a sore thumb. If not you can bet the buyer will not be told about it. I know we are all honest but let's get real. Money creates a sparkle in the eye. As the years pass as we will you can count on some of the reworked firearms being passed off as originals. There is no way to prevent it in my opinion.
Thor, in regards to your question I do not think it makes one bit of difference whether you mark your work or not. You are not the only one reworking lugers.

Based on the above replies and the feed back I am getting directly from my clients, I am going to offer to omit the marking at the customers request. I have heard that some of them get removed anyway after I send them out. I will keep the records for all to check with me if they wish.

Thor, :D
Hang In There Ole Buddy, You Know that you are doing the right thing by applying YOUR MARK to YOUR WORK. And Thats all that Counts! <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
The Customer sees your Statement and If he then still wishes to have you work on his Pistol, What follows is truth no deception. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
And In My Opinion With the Skill that you have developed it Appears to Add Value to an old Relic. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
If I can Ever afford the work I wish to have you Do both my 1906 Eagle and My Repro Ideal Combo.
That Will Be "One of a Kind Set". And in matching Colors WHEEEEEEE !!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ViggoG

Thor -

You are an honest man. Do what you think is right, and don't worry too much about what others think. I trust your judgement, and I think everyone else here feels the same.

Your Friend, Luke.

This is one of those oddities in the Luger community but common to human nature. Thor, you restore Lugers. This is an unholy ritual to a luger collector. Much like the rabbi who publicly denounces pork as unclean but truly savors a plate of ham at home, they will publicly shun but then acquire and send you noncollectable guns and have them restored to the level of a collectable and announce it as restored knowing that in the future it will be presented as otherwise. The most used phrase used in describing your work is "can't tell it from an original". Quit fooling yourself gentlemen. In 30 years 75% of the Thor's restorations will be presented as originals. They are that good. The question isn't if the marks should or should not be added, but what is the motive in having the work done. There is no intent to defraud anyone, an attempt by marking is made to prevent it, but human nature being what it is will not stop it.

rk

Thor,
I think you should continue to put your mark on your work. You are the only person that does this that I am aware or and it makes your work unique in my mind and gives some the satisfaction that you are not mass reproducing these just for the bucks, but actually take pride in doing excellent workmanship. Let face it, you have a small business and turn out only a few refinished Lugers a year compared to some in this business. I feel it adds to your credibility as well as your work to have this mark. If someone wants to remove it, then that is THEIR business and their motive doesn't seem so pure or honest as it once sounded.

I agree with Roadkill, Luke, and Viggo on this subject. Refinished Lugers are going to be passed off as real and are everyday. No matter how many books you buy, or articles you read, you can still get fooled as some of the restoration are that good. Look at the 1916 Navy Lugers and the discussion on the recent toggles offered for sale. Stick to you guns Thor, in this case your mark and stay as pure as your can. Your mark isn't really going to change the world of collecting, but at least you have the peace of mind as do some of your fellow admires that your intentions are of the highest degree. In this business about all you have in your reputation and once rumors or doubts come into play, you're looked at in an entirely different manner. Stay true to yourself and continue to do what you feel is correct. --- Bill

Hello Ted,

I have always thought you should come up with a more artist mark or even a nice "thor" stamping...similar to the VONO or the R. Fluckiger stampings (on some Swiss reworks) and stamp it proudly on the right side of the frame.

In a few years down the road, I think the pistols that have gone through your hands will be as desired, by some, as those reworks by Gale Morgan, John Martz, VONO, Fluckiger, etc...

And after your passing (God forbid...), your pistols will be legendary and you will be slightly immortal...and remembered..!

Hope the purists do not tar & feather me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Hello Bill M.,

Just recently I saw several Gale Morgan restorations on a table at Reno along side some factory-original finished works. I could not tell the difference other than the Morgan works had absolutely no wear. In a few years when these Morgan reworks gain some wear patterns, over time, I can imagine they could be resold as originals...(I assume G. Morgan does not do any stamp, but I could be wrong on this point).

I have always appreciated Ted's markings and would hope he continues to do so...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hello Howard,

I think there is an easy way to get your answer from Thor.

Send him one of your lugers with some trouble areas, pay him the $ 400-500 to do his touch-up magic, and you will then probably have the answer to your question in your hands...when you get your gun back home... :D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thor,
I am not a collector, seasoned or otherwise, so some of the comments about what "original" is are a bit over my head and seem a bit like picking nits. However, some collectors go to those extremes and it seems like they should be thankful for your rework marks. For others who are more like me and enjoy your fine craftsmanship and the unique design of the Luger, a rework mark in an inconspicuous place is a non issue. It seems to me that an honest person would welcome keeping dishonest people honest. After all, what I do with your reworked gun isn't really the issue as I see it. It is what the guy I sell it to (not likely to happen any time soon :) ) does with it. If he is prohibited from passing it off as an "original" so much the better.

This discussion reminds me of when I got my Garand reworked. I had bought it from CMP and it was not pretty. I sent it to an armorer who among other things, re barreled it and put a new stock on it. He engraved the name of his shop in beautiful script on the barrel where it could be seen. I have no idea if he does this to alert others that it is a rework or not, but I was not disappointed in the least. After all, I had no intention of passing it off as a pristine example of a 1944 Garand even if had not put his mark on it (of course he didn't try to fake serial numbers or date stamps on the barrel so a knowledgeable collector would have seen it was a rework quickly - but possibly an inexperienced collector might not). In fact I was a little proud to have his mark on it because some who know his work would realize I had a quality gun.

I see you have decided to leave it up to the customer whether he wants the rework marks or not. That is your call. But for me. It bothers me not a wit that you will put them on my gun and it makes me feel a lot better knowing I am dealing with a honest smith who obviously has not desire to fool anyone.

I can't imagine anyone feeling differently, but that's just me.

Thor, in my opinion, your mark tells the world that a master did the work, not some bubba. Frankly, I think it will add value to the gun in the future.

Your solution: let the customer decide if the gun should be marked or not but you keep records on the work seems to be tne answer to everyone's needs.

Hairy, I have thought about this a lot lately. Offering to add the mark, and giving the customer the option is the best way to make him/her happy. After all, it is their gun and some of them simply dont want it. Others will feel that the marking might even add value in the future.

Thor, Interesting thread...I agree with you about letting the client decide. Keeping records of pertinant details, serial #'s etc will clear up most problems.
I agree with Toggle Top, there is no real way to prevent fraud if one wants to go the distance.

Why not have a small lightening bolt stamp made to mark you work? Or if that is too Political, a small hammer? Keep up the good work my Friend, and I will see you soon! Thanks, Jerry Burney

Thor,

I have often thought that a "signature" (as opposed to your cryptic dots) would be appropriate for your rework/restorations. If there is any justice, this should add a certain value, as has beenpointed out beofre.

And Pete,

I have examined several Gale Morgan restorations and have noticed that the side plates are consistently polished in a manner unlike the originals.

--Dwight

I would say in all likelihood some of Teds work has already been passed as original, Not every buyer of a Luger is a collector. I sell several guns a year to customers who "Just want a Luger". So a lot of these kind of people would not know about Ted's service or the Luger Forum.

There was Pastor Herbert Muenkel of Zumbrota,Minn. who restored guns and he also kept records and would tell anyone who KNEW to ask him if he did a gun or not. His work is/was undectable. As the years have passed and the old Luger crowd has faded these restored guns have become mint factory original specimens.

Regards,
Mike

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
<strong>Thor, I have often thought that a "signature" (as opposed to your cryptic dots) would be appropriate for your rework/restorations. If there is any justice, this should add a certain value, as has beenpointed out beofre. --Dwight</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight has beaten me to it; I not only think a rework mark is necessary but I think it should be something unique. Your initials, for example.

While some collectors are honest and wouldn't attempt to pass your work off as factory original, others are not so honest and would rob the pennies from their dead mother's eyes. The initials should also be somewhere on the frame AND the cannon, IMO, and done in such a way to preclude anyone removing them without it being very noticeable if the Luger was stripped down for examination. Any "seller" who refuses to allow a strip-down could keep their "mint" pistol.

Just my opinion, of course.

Gentlemen, One thing you have to keep in mind...As nice as Ted's work is he is still a businessman and has to sell his product. There will be a certain segment of potential customers who will and some who will not, want his Luger marked in any way. A smart businessman will do as Ted has chosen to do, give the customer a choice. I am sure Ted would rather not turn business away over this. I personally believe that any "mint" Luger should be considered suspect until proven otherwise. I applaud Thor's efforts in this area but there must be a compromise between forcing honesty on people and letting the chips fall where they may. There is no way to legislate morality. Jerry Burney

"let the chips fall where they may".... I think this best describes Luger collecting today, at least this is the over all feeling I get from the LF group on this subject. We'll well close this out, and get on too the real important stuff....hunting, Octerber is closer then I am ready for it, and I already have that big bull elk stuffed and mounted somewhere in the house, wherever Mrs. PL will let me hang.

Hello Dwight,

So that 1943 HK luger we all saw in Reno with any asking of $ 5-6K was a Morgan rework...?...it looked really good but I did notice the side plate finish was more mirror-bright than the rest of the gun. It looked a bit out-of-place in comparison to the rest of the pistol.

Do you know if this is Mr. Morgan's "signature" for any gun he refinishes...? Maybe his way of saying "Gale Morgan was here"...???

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hello Mike,

Do you know if Pastor Herbert Muenkel's list was ever given out after his passing...?...Maybe posting it here on the Luger Forum and and Jan's site and even in AutoMag would help many folks down the line...

I would think this would be a great way to stop such reworked guns as being sold as "mint factory original specimens"...to the next luger buying generation...

Similarly, maybe Thor would do the same before he passes...(which won't be for a long while, hopefully !)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete,

No, what I was referring to was the distinctive way the horizontal polishing at the top of the side plate meets the vertical polishing of the plate's face at a diagonal line. The Gale Morgan restorations I have seen continue the vertical polish to the top of the side plate.

I can't imagine that this would be a "signature", and of course I don't know about the larger number of his guns that I haven't examined, but when I am presented with a "Gale Morgan Restoration" its the first thing I look for.

--Dwight

Pete I am in very good health at 49 so it "may be a while" Natalie is 12 years younger than me and she shares my opinion to be open. I will certainly ask her to make the list (without links to clients or owners of the guns when I did them) available for distribution upon my eventual demise. 'course you never never know, I could be called home at any minute.

Thor,

you can wait to post your list if you wish... but there is another alternative...

you could post your list withOUT attributing names and ownership... just a cut and dried listing that stated gun type and serial number(s) with a photo if you have one available...

Since you are the owner of the data, and photographs... no one could object to you posting them since ownership has not been revealed... kind of like taking a photo of the Leaning Tower of Pisa and publishing it without getting Leonardo Da Vinci's approval :D

BTW, I have to toss my hat in with those that believe that your mark is not only necessary, but will also be considered your signature and cause for collectability of a particular weapon as time passes... your work is unsurpassed in my experience and I hope you continue to do it for a LONG time.

-John

Thor,
Here are my two cents worth. I have to agree with John S. on his post. Having seen a lot of you work first hand I think that you mark does need to be on your work. I would like to see it changed to a hammer instead of the 3 dots. Also, placing a list on your site or even here if John D. would allow it would be benifical to everyone. Like John suggested, no names need appear. Well any way that is my two cents.
Sid.

Thor, I think you should give everyone the choice. If you insist on the mark you will lose work from the ones that don't want it. And if they want a luger restored without a mark they will find someone else to do it. I agree with Jerry Burney you have a business to run and a family to support. Besides all that I'm sure that a lot of your marks have already been removed by the people that don't want it. Restoration of Lugers will happen if you do them or not and this forum can't stop it so i wouldn't stress out about it. I know you're honest and you worry to much about this subject. Your decision is right in my book. Don H.

Ted,

I echo Don's comments - and told you so in private. If you want to publish the numbers either here - or on your website - that is your choice, I'd assist you with either, as you know. But, it should be by YOUR choice.

My parting comment is do NOT let someone back you into a corner on this topic. In reading the "adjacent" thread, my opinion is â??PoliceLugerâ?� has a lot of growing up to do - both professionally and handling his professional jealousy. I was tempted to ask, when he boosted Lugers (by his own definition, as he himself, does Strawing for 3rd parties, but he also posted that was â??boosting), what marks he applied to his strawed parts on his customerâ??s Lugers. My guess is none â?? as the strawed parts sent to him typically wonâ??t include a frame to be marked with a rework mark, such as you do. So he holds you to a different standard then he, PoliceLuger - holds himself. And that's both funny - and a sad commentary as to â??double standardsâ?�.

Ted, don't let others run your business for you - your work and professionalism speaks for themselves. And your decisions are yours alone.

- John D.

"a business too run and a family too support" Don, at whose expense?, the original question, which will never be answered is, is major touch up repairs like the Mauser shown, noted by a proof/rework mark?. The answer is no and you all feel better for it? Fakes abound, mine and any other re-straw work is all too plain too spot, as are total re-blue. Well maybe that is not the case when you consider the thread over the HK at Reno."jealousy", really JD. somewhat like Ted, a 34+ year career as a civil engineer (traffic eng), and a 28+year gun business, I covet none. Again too all who may want it, free instruction on strawing and how too get started in bluing.

Hi PoliceLuger,

I don't think that was the issue I raised. I wasn't looking for your resume - rather, you made an accusation but fall short on your own reply. You didn't offer "instruction" for "$85", did you? At $85 for "instructions on how to straw" - you may want to re-think your pricing a bit. I sincerely thought you would re-straw that customers small parts for that price here:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c;f=7;t=000153

Please - do tell me that wasn't your post?

Good lick to you, Howard - and to your apparent "budding career".

- John D.

And a gook lick too you. No it was not, ask over 2 dozen of LF member....always offered free of charge, several have taken it upon them selves with great results.

I vote for no rework mark. It's closer to the origional.

Will EVERYONE please stop this petty bickering?! Geez, tempers and egos are getting out of hand.

Howard - You have contributed to the situation, whether you like it or not, by performing restoration or providing instructions to others. Unless you can honestly state that everything you have done is clearly marked, I see very little justification for requiring others to do so.

John D. - Your comment that "$85 for instructions how to straw" is not accurate and only serves to inflame the controversy. What Howard said was "send me the small parts and for $85 I'll polish/re-straw and send parts back". No wonder he contnues to get his hackles up.

It is not only this "restoration" topic that has exhibited increasing acrimony, but the "witness mark" discussion as well. I believe that it is incumbent on all of us to try to treat everyone with civility and respect for their opinions. It is about time to realize that theories, conjectures and flat out wild a** guesses are part of how the hobby lives and grows. Accept a different point of view for what it is, i.e. somebody's sincere attempt to present an explanation of a piece of history that has escaped documentation or has been lost to time. You can accept or reject a hypothesis without killing the messenger. Present your case with all the skill and logic you can muster. Respond to opposing views with dignity.