Sleeve Insertion
 

Dear Friends,

I just sent the barrel of my artillery Luger off to The Gun Rack, 12461 Adams Street, Brooksville, FL 34613 to have it drilled out and a rifled sleeve inserted.

Stay tuned.

Regards.
Jack

Just FYI. When you get the gun back make sure to check it over good. I had them re-line a C-96 five + years ago. While it functioned fine the attention to detail left something to be desired. One of the guns I had done was bored off center and the breach sides were a little rough. I hope this was due to the fact that they were C-96's.

I had a 30 Mauser C96 rebored to 9mm by Redmonds and they did a great job for $100. <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Along with checking The Gun Rack, I wrote to Redman's Rifling & Reboring about putting a sleeve in my artillery, but I was told they don't work on Lugar artilleries. So as of this date I know of no one else who does that specific job.

Tell me more - I'm interested in getting a barrel sleeved. What is contact info for Redmonds/Redman's? What are other reputable shops for this work? How long does it take? Do they have to remove the barrel from the receiver?
KFS

Redman's Rifling & Reboring, 189 Nichols Rd, Omak, WA 98841, ph: 509-826-5512.

Broomhandle Mauser bbls rebored to 9mm= $90; relined to 7.63 Mauser=$100

Call or write them for a price list.

Other bbl reliners from GUN LIST, I do not have 1st hand experience with their work:

Beinke & Beinke, 4520 Anderson, Klamath Falls, OR 97603, ph. 541-882-3371.

Craig Rittenhouse,104 Valley Rd., Tamaqua, PA 18252, SASE or ph. 570-277-0381 <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

FYI, I finally got in touch with Redman's Rifling and Reboring. They do not sleeve 9mm Lugers but they can rebore a 7.65 Luger to 9mm.

I would appreciate recommendations anyone has for a good shop for having a 9mm Luger sleeved. KFS

A few years back I contacted Redmonds about reboring/chambering a 7.63 C-96 barrel to 9mm. I was advised that he would not use a chamber sleeve to headspace the Luger cartridge. He suggested seating the bullet out to contact the rifling in order to establish the correct headspacing. I was not satisfied with the results. The work by Redmond's was competent enough but trying to get correct headspacing by seating the bullets out just didn't work. I sold the pistol. At a later date I requested that Redmond's rechamber and rebore another C-96 to 9mm but with a chamber bushing for headspacing. I was flatly refused.

If I were to have another C-96 done by Redmonds, it would be in the original 7.63 chambering. After my experience with the 9mm, I wouldn't do it again unless there was a chamber bushing.

That's my experience and it's neither a condemnation of, nor endorsement for Redmonds. The work was competent except that without the chamber bushing, consistently headspacing the cartridges proved to be impossible.

Thanks Doubs,

I have continued to search for a shop that will sleeve a Luger. Beinke & Beinke do not sleeve lugers nor does Craig Ritterhouse listed above. I was referred to Mentor Arms Company as a shop that specializes in lugers but their phone has been disconnected. If there is a reputable shop (or two) that sleeves lugers I suggest that their contact information be included in the links section of the old web site for future reference.

There must be a market for sleeving Luger barrels, especially with the inflated prices of recent years. In my experience there are lots of well-preserved lugers out there with the exception of a pitted bore. KFS

Gentlemen, once again I'll reveal my ignorance regarding Lugers, but what the hell. Instead of sleeving & relining a Luger, would it be possible to rebore it and then increase the bullet size? Increase bore diameter enough to remove bad areas, then slug bore, get sized bullets, adjust chamber then reload with a stretched case? Please don't laugh too hard.

RK

Found these for you guys, all of them advertise as doing barrel work of some type, including sleeving.
http://www.m-s-co.com/sso/whereto.html
http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/pgw_other.html
http://www.piscogunsmithing.com/services.html
http://pub109.ezboard.com/fparallaxs...rmsforumsfrm54
http://www.shotgunnews.com/gunad/adi...g?nclass=S5540
Whew, hope I got them right. Good luck!

In the beginning there was the 7.65 Borchardt cartridge. Loaded up for the 7.63 Mauser with no significant change of diminsion. Then shortend to form the 7.65 mm Parabellum.

DWM's first attempt at a 9 mm Luger cartridge was the 7.65 mm Parabellum necked up to 9 mm. This resulted in a bottle necked case with a shoulder either to too small for reliable headspacing or just too small to bother with. The next attempt was a taperd case and the 9 mm Parabellum was born.

My point is that if you bore out a 7.65 Parabellum or a 7.63 Mauser chamber, there will be an area where the should was that will be larger in diameter than a 9 mm chamber, resulting in an odd shaped chamber with a "ring bulge" in it. The shoulder on the bottle necked cartridges is larger in diameter than the corresponding point on the 9 mm Parabellum case. Seems to me that to get a proper chamber you would be forced to sleeve it.

unspellable

No�«l, That is some neat information on DWM's first attempt at a 9mm cartridge that resulted in a slightly bottlenecked cartridge. Where did you find that info? I had always assumed that the 9mm Parabellum evolved directly from the 7.65mm.

Unspellable,

Thanks for the information. Perhaps this difference in chamber shape has something to do with Doubs' headspace difficulties with the rebored C96.

Still, Redmonds must do a lot of these reborings and one would think that if there were lots of dissatisfied customers they would change their practices accordingly.

What are the potential consequences of the slightly different chamber shape? It would be interesting to hear from others who have had a 7.63/7.65 to 9mm rebore. How does the fired brass compare with that of a normal 9mm? KFS

Ron,

I can't say where I first learned about the evolution of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge but the first reference that falls to hand is The Luger Book by John Walter, 1986 edition, Entry A39 Ammunition Register, part ix. There it lists DWM case 480 bottle necked, 480A bottle necked, 480B straight, and 480C tapered, the last becoming the 9mm Parabellum we all know and love.

If a 9 mm Parabellum cartridge were to be fired in a chamber bored out from 7.65 mm Parabellum I would expect the fired case to have blown out to a slight shoulder like 480 or 480A. If it were fired in a chamber bored out from 7.63 Mauser I would expect the mouth to expand to an oversized diminsion and take very few resizings before cracking at the neck. This wouldn't matter too much for throw away cases, but it wouldn't contribute anything to accuracy.

You all realize of course that DWM made a few Lugers chambered in the bottle necked 9 mm cartridge. It's the one they took to England when they tried to sell it to the Brits. All you have to do is find one in an attic someplace. But don't get too excited yet, it would have been easy for the tool room to rebarrel them.

unspellable

Does Gale Morgan do barrel sleeving?

--Dwight

Jack,

Did the barrel come back from the Gun Rack yet? When I spoke to Gun Rack on the phone they said that turnaround time was about two weeks. I'm about to send them a barrel/receiver as well because they seem to be the only place I can find that will sleeve a Luger to 9mm. It would be nice to hear from a satisfied customer before I take the plunge. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Dear Karl,

No news as of this date. I'll post a preliminary evaluation of the job as soon as I get the barrel back and a shooting evaluation later.

Regards,
Jack

I am the proud owner of a C96 that the gun rack relined,shoots great,great workmanship.I have nothing but praise for them

Dear Friends,

Earlier I told of sending an artillery barrel off to the Gun Rack for the insertion of a sleeve. For those who may have been waiting for some news regarding the result, I sent it off 6/21/02 and have heard nothing since. Today I'm sending a followup letter of inquiry.

Stay tuned.
Regards,
Jack

Thanks Jack,
I sent mine off to Gun Rack as well on 12 July after a positive reference. They said that turnaround was about two weeks but perhaps the sleeve guy was on vacation. I'll be interested to learn about your experience, and how the gun performs with the new sleeve. KFS

Dear Fiends,

For those who may be following the sleeve-insertion job that I gave to the Gun Rack, I got a phone-call today from the Gun Rack and was asked if I wanted a .30 caliber bore or 9mm. Since I had already shot 9mm Luger in the pistol, I was a bit disconerted by the question, but I told them that I wanted a 9mm bore.

I asked them if they had considered registering on the Links & Resources section of our Forum, but I was told that they didn't need any more business and had cut down their advertising because they had about as much business as they could handle as a result of satisfied customers. Apparently that was the hold-up on completing the job on my pistol.

I'm to send them a check for $100 and they'll return the barrel to me with the job done.

Stay tuned for the next report.

Regards,
Jack Owens

[img]frown.gif[/img] I just received my sleeved barrel/receiver back from the Gun Rack and I am strongly disappointed with the workmanship. The sleeve is significantly off center at the muzzle and there is a gap between the end of the sleeve and the inside curve of the muzzle crown on one side, filled in with some kind of epoxy-like material. At the breech end, the sleeve is about 1/32" short and there is a burr protruding from the face of the original breech where the drill exited, another gap on one side and some crude grinding on the ramp at the bottom of the breech. There are other grinder gouges on the inside of the receiver where it looks like the grinder got away from the careless worker (craftsman does not apply) who worked on the ramp. On the positive side there are no marks on the external surfaces and the wait was not excessive (sent the barrel off on 11 July)
Bottom line: I would never, ever do business with this company again. KFS

Karl, how irritating, it sounds to me like not one or two small mistakes but a series of screw ups? I always thought a sleeving should be a slight line at the muzzle and be almost "seamless" in design?

What a shame, hopefully it will shoot like a son of a gun?

Karl, thanks for the info. This is the kind of thing that needs to be known to prevent other mambers of the Forum from having the same experience. Sorry to hear that it was such a mess, probably nothing can be done now to correct it.

Hi Karl, Thanks for posting the results of your project...

If it is at all possible, could you post photos of the work done on your gun by the Gun Rack?

This is an area that many long time Luger owners consider and knowing what, and what not, to look for in a Luger "surgeon" would be an important lesson for us all...

Personally I am very sorry that it was a costly lesson for you.

Not, wanting to sound like a know it all, but see my earlier post reguarding the "Gun Rack". While the two guns that they did for me functioned properly and were accurate, the work looked like crap! [img]mad.gif[/img] Well no one can't say is didn't tell you all before. I am sorry that you had to learn the hard way the same as I did.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Thanks all for the quick response, simpathy, etc.

Yes Doug, I did read your earlier post and put off sending the barrel out because of it, but finally gave in when I could find no other source for sleeving to 9mm. The gun needed a new barrel or a sleeve job regardless, and if it doesn't perform satisfactorily I'll just have the barrel replaced. Money was never an issue, and I would gladly have paid more for better workmanship. I will communicate this point as well in a letter to the Gun Rack.

John, in regard to posting photos, I don't have access to a digital camera right now and even then it would be difficult to photograph the breech. Besides, I have already begun working on the damage that can be corrected.

After polishing down the muzzle, it seems that the gap I described is more than just a surface problem. The fit fit between the sleeve and the bored-out barrel is not as tight as I would expect. I'll try to take the gun to the range in a day or so and see how it performs, but I just bought a boat, so ma�±ana. KFS

I took the sleeved Luger to the range today. It functioned perfectly, no feeding problems, spent brass looked normal. I am unable to give a clear account of accuracy because it shoots so high that I had to use Kentucky windage just to get holes in the paper (the sleeve offset at the muzzle is at 12 o'clock). Anyway, I was still able to achieve about a 3" group at 50'. So despite the poor workmanship it seems to work OK. KFS

Dear Friends,

Going back to the origin of this thread, on 8/23/02 I finally got the artillery Luger back from the Gun Rack where I had sent it on 6/21/02.

It came packed compactly in a Styrofoam container for protection along with an interesting photocopied article on the Luger from the 7/93 issue of "Shooting Times" magazine. The total cost, including handling and shipping, was $100.

It has been so hot around here (Porterville, CA) that I delayed going out to the range, but I finally did a couple of times and can now report on the results.

Unfortunately I have no digital camera so this entry will have to be verbal.

Going by appearance alone, I'd say it looks like a quit decent job. The bore is right in the center of the muzzle. However, a lack of attention to fine detail resulted in a slight burr, that I don't know how to remove, on the left side of the muzzle when it was crowned. Since it is very slight I thought a few rounds might remove it but after about thirty shots it's still there and it may be affecting accuracy. As far as accuracy itself goes, the best I've been able to do is about a 6" group at 20 yards with the shots being slightly high and to the right.. Whether that's attributable to the crowning of the muzzle or just the fact that it's an old gun that can't do any better I don't know.

Feeding and functioning are okay with no deformed casings

Could a better job be done? Again I don't know.

Would I recommend The Gun Rack to others who wanted a sleeve installed in a Luger barrel? And would I send them another of my Lugers for a repeat job? On the basis of the job they did for me and John Keenan (geoda), the answer is yes. But if we take into account the reports of Karl Schuler and Doug George, the verdict is mixed. It appears that the Gun Rack is unable to do consistently good work, meaning you send in your gun and take your chances.

I suppose the first consideration is, do you really want to change a display piece into a shooting piece. And if so, what can be done realistically, without being impossibly demanding about it. We now have about 500 member on the Forum. Is there any input available on this topic from anyone else?

Regards to all,
Jack

Jack,
You can remove the burr in the crown yourself with a round head brass machine bolt and fine valve lapping compound. Choose a brass bolt with a head slightly larger in diameter than the bore, and although I prefer using one of the old hand cranked drills an electric drill on slow speed can be used if care is taken. Don't apply too much pressure, and rotate the drill in a 4/5" arc around the muzzle so as to not wear a groove in one place on the brass bolt. Works like a charm.

Thanks for the suggestion, Johnny, but it sounds a little risky to me, . I mean if you're polishing off the burr on one side --and it is only on one side-- by having the bolt-head bear on the bore all the way around, it would seem that while you're polishing the area of the burr and removing it, you're also polishing (and wearing away) the area that has no burr. You would then wind up with no burr but the opposite side would be slightly rounded as a result, giving a non-symmetrical crown.

The only way to do it with precision that I can think of is with a lathe.

Any other ideas from anyone else?

Regards,
Jack

Jack,
The screwdriver slot on the machine bolt will remove the burr long before the compound eats one side of the bore away. It works, but if you have any doubts I would surely send it back to the people that left it in that condition. Maybe they will have purchased a lathe by the time you return it.

Jack,

Glad to hear that you had a more favorable experience with Gun Rack.

My relined barrel had a similar burr which I removed with a fine jeweler's file. After reading the last few posts I wonder how critical this could be to accuracy. The gun shoots OK but it is not as accurate as my other lugers with so-so bores. KFS