Home rust bluing
 

Would like to "touch up" or refinish some grip straps an my shooter luger. Would like to use the rust blue process since it is supposed to be more durable that chemical cold blues. Was there ever a "how to do it" piece posted on the Forum in the past? Does anybody know the "secret" that they could share with me and others?

Request a copy of Brownell's latest catalog, #56 and they can be reached at 1-800-741-0015 and ask for a free info sheet on "Dicropan IM". Also very good free advice can be had at the same # and ask too talk too "Tech Support". Just finished two high grade O/U soft solder Belgium Brownings with the stuff, and one more too do, ....in fact I have an extra bottle, 1 pint, new in shipping carton, at dealer cost if you are interested and info sheet is always included. Please let me know soon or I'm returning it as I overstocked myself....you need a hot water bath, propane or like heat sourse, steel wool, rubber gloves and a few other small items. Find an old junk gun, worn out barrel or the like too first try it out on, it works!!!!...as all blueing projects it is always in hte polishing/prep of the metal...and I'll be here if you need help.

Herb, here is something you might try, I haven't tried it myself but what the heck it seems fairly easy if you can get all the ingredients.
http://yarchive.net/gun/bluing.html

Herb, This is a hot salt blue process... not rust blue as Herb Fisher requested...

It will certainly work for reblueing an entire assembly, but I wouldn't recommended this process for touch ups... it is a hot, smelly and caustic process...

I do permanent spot repair work on salt blued guns and rust blued guns. Please email at Thor340@aol.com if you need pricing or examples of my spot work. I DONT discuss my methods so please dont ask me how I do it.

John, you put a Luger in that stuff and I can gaurentee it's gonna rust, probally everything within 20 feet will too.

I was not a chem major in college but you will not find me mucking around with a mixture of sodium nitrate and sodium hydroxide!

Thor undoubtably has spent a fair amount of money on proper safety equipment!

I will leave the salt bueing to him.

Howard (policelugers), please check your private messages. Thank you one and all for the advice. Always great to get such expert and experienced help.

Here is an example of a salt blued Mauser. The rear frame ear is damaged. This is the only area that is repaired and the rest of the original bluing is retained. The repair is permanent.

Damaged Area-Salt Blued Mauser
Repaired Area-After picture

OK gentleman, while this work is beautiful, (above Mauser), do we now consider this a bolstered gun? what providence will follow this gun, too let the next owner know it has been, for lack of better term, post 1945 re-worked. Most guns that have had a complete re-blue job are sometimes easy too spot, then again how many are too good of re-work too know for certain....so the question is...spot type re-work, do we still consider this 100% collection grade or a step down, and how do we know, and when we do, how do we (the forum) feel about touch up work???

ALL the guns that Thor reworks get his personal rework mark... no exceptions... Check out his website to see what it looks like...

He did not state above, that a touch up job was also proof marked. It would be interesting too see the serial number of this gun and where the gun shows up after here. Remember we are talking about touch up work and how can we know a gun was bolstered, and how we feel about it. Don't get up set with capital letters, ALL....we're wanting too find out how so many re-work, bolstered guns get too the collectors marked...and are you sure that the owner of a minty gun (not necessarily the gun above) in need of a little fix up would be willing too have an after 1945 proof mark added too his gun?.

We all hear from time to time about refinishing these Lugers and the opinions of it being right or wrong. I have a question, I own a 1967 Camaro with 34000 actual miles. The problem is it sat outside in the sun for 15 years and everything other than the metal is rotten so what should I do? If the car was in excellent condition and in no need of restoration it would be worth a lot of money. Cars and guns don't last forever. Is there any difference? I have spent almost $20,000 already on this Car and I'm sure everyone will be able to tell that it's been restored. I have seen many of Ted's refinishing's and I think they look better than original. I'm not trying to start a war here but is there any difference? Thanks Don

Howard's points are well taken. The frame ear certainly looks better than before the "repair". I don't think anyone casually could tell it was done, especially by one so expert as Ted. He is true blue honest and I'm absolutely certain would inform any buyer of the restoration. But how can you or I be certain that that great looking piece being offered at a gun show is "as advertised"? There are so many "pot holes" to deal with these days, especially with Krieghoffs and Navies. Buy as many books as you can afford and read read read.

Don H. your point is understood, and as always car restoration is compared too gun restoration, with the understanding that restoring a Chevy will never compare too a restored gun in how value is graded, but read again that this is about touch up work, a gun that can be bolstered/faked too some poor unsuspecting shumck (did I spell that right?)down the road. Not saying Ted is doing this for down the road profits, as he is informing this small group of what he did now for a customer. For the few of us at the last Reno gun show at Russ's table, remember the really uninformed guy who at the end on Saturday paid too dollar for a piece of ground up crap P08, and did it with out FFL.....he needed a home EPT test, and was unsupecting and uninformed as possible, now how about the beginner collector looking at this Mauser a few years down the road? he is going too get burned.....no war Don, we all want too preserve the hobby.

I guess we all look at it differently. I personally purchased a Luger that I knew was touched up and I would rather have it the way it is now. If a person owns a luger that looks like crap why not restore it? I agree with Mr. Fisher If a person is a new collector do some homework and ask a lot of questions before you buy. I'm sure that the guy at the Reno show could of found someone for an opinion before he bought it, still that is sad. There is a lot of crooks out there and this forum is a good way for beginners to learn.

Don H.

My situation is sort of the opposite of yours. I own an '86 Lincoln Mark VII with 17,000 original miles that has always been stored indoors. It is absolutely perfect and absolutely original down to the belts, hoses, little production stickers, and even the tires. I doubt that any worn car could be restored to the condition of this unaltered original. How can any repaint really be as good as original and how can you ever replace all the tiny stuff like window motors and switches, etc? (Too bad Lincolns aren't worth what Camaros are to car nuts.)

On the otherhand I have a Thor restored 1915 DWM that really is in original condition (as far as I can tell). I am glad I am a shooter not a big buck gun collector.

Policeluger, no, it's "schmuck"

Firearm finish is polished, oxidized metal. What you see is what you get. The remaining colors, shapes, and dimensions tell the story in its entirety. No military sidearm with a million copies produced in series runs of thousands at a time can be expected to have collectible provenance in the same sense as an oil painting. But if you insist on regarding it the same way, I question the ethics of adding rework marks not correlated with the safety certification of firing proof loads. Should Mona Lisa be so marked after every cleaning?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Michael Zeleny:
<strong>But if you insist on regarding it the same way, I question the ethics of adding rework marks not correlated with the safety certification of firing proof loads. Should Mona Lisa be so marked after every cleaning?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Michael, I understand what you are saying and I wouldn't say I am a purest collector. But in the gun collecting fraternity, and specifically in the Luger field, re-worked (non-arsenal to me), re-blued, tampered with, and items changed on a Luger drops the value from a collector to a shooter status.

My 1966 Mustang has had repro parts put on it, and it's value is not as high as if I had used all OEM parts or it was pristine to start with. But when I got it, it had mis-matched door panels, replaced door, etc., so it was smart to re-paint, add correct parts etc. The value of my mustang went up, but not dramatically. Now, if you take a pristine, but 1950 era nickled WW2 Luger, worth maybe $400, then de-nickle it, reblue it, you have spent another several hundred to four hundred dollars, but have increased its value to maybe $500, so you have lost money.

So, to repeat myself, in the gun collecting, but specifically, the Luger collecting field, to reblue or boost a gun brings the value up very little.

Although a good cleaning, is not in the same category, most collectors I have talked to have no problem with cleaning a nasty pair of grips, scrubbing the bore, cleaning the metal, but any further, such as cold blue or touch up is considered boosting and unethical. So Ted or others adding a mark after it has been "fixed" appears ethical to me? He is trying to keep his restored Luger from being sold 10 years from now as a 98% gun, when it was a 90% with a problem.

Ed

This controversy will never be fully resolved.

One thing I have noticed is that many (maybe most) of the DWM Lugers available on the market have been restrawed. This process is within the capabilities of most collectors, although few do it as well as Thor, so many of the early DWMs have been restrawed.

Does restrawing disqualify a Luger as a collectable? Maybe . . . . maybe not.

Luke

Ed, I appreciate the point of trying to keep a restored Luger from being sold 10 years from now as a 98% original gun, when it began restoration as a 90% with a problem. What I find objectionable is the default assumption that one's customer intends to falsify the provenance of his restored gun. More importantly, I question the propriety of defacing a historical artefact with the restorer's signature, outside of the conventional armory practice of certifying its safety with proof loads. Signing a mere cosmetic renovation is sheer vanity.

I own a 1974 Maserati Bora, produced in a series of 549 cars. My car has a second coat of paint, an engine rebuilt with factory NOS parts, and an aftermarket stainless steel exhaust. I would no more allow anyone working on it to affix his signature to the outcome, than I would tolerate a surgeon so decorate the scars that he leaves on my body. If a handgun is to be treated as a classic artefact, similar rules should apply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Luke:
<strong>Does restrawing disqualify a Luger as a collectable? Maybe . . . . maybe not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As a purest, I would say. What is the difference in re-strawing or rebluing? Percentage of metal refurbished?

But, I am not a purest, a toggle pin with the wrong number doesn't make it a collectable loss to me, it might be tarnished in my eyes, but it isn't immediately relegated into "shooter" status.

BTW, nice car Michael <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

ed

It really gets messy when you think of a Luger being bolstered or altered by a professional counterfeiter. I would think that a common army Luger like, oh say, a 1915 DWM would gain anything by rebluing and restrawing it. At todays prices, maybe the same could be said of a 1917 artillery. By the time you bought a barrel and the sights (front and rear), bought or altered the rear toggle and then reblued and restrawed, altered the serial numbers, you just have not gained that much, if anything. You have just spent a lot of time creating a fake.

On the other hand, altering a 1906 Russian army Luger can result in a big increase in price. Maybe the same could be said of a Kreighoff Luger. What was gained by the famous Ralph Shattuck Krieghoff where the chambered date was altered from one rare Krieghoff to another rare Krieghoff? Just some idiot fooling around.

Nazi Era lugers are a different story because small proof marks can change the value of a Luger. Counterfieting a Totenkoff head on a chamber can change the value of a Luger. This is a fine example of how a counterfieter can ruin the collectibility of a fine gun.

There is a guy on the forum who spent a lot of time and effort making an Ideal Stock and holster, including grips for a 1900 or 1906 Luger. Gosh, for the time and effort he spent making it, he could have gotten a part time job and bought a real one.

When a Luger is restored by a skilled craftsman such as Thor or the guy that I sometimes use, Ken Karsted, then I really have a hard time berating the gun. These people restore a Luger to its original beauty without otherwise alterating the gun to increase its value. What has given restoration a bad name are the hackers and the counterfeiters. Hackers because they permanently have destroyed a historic artifact. Counterfeiters because they have committed a fraud for the purpose of cheating someone. Do-Do on them.

This could be a long topic for me because, at heart, I am really a purtist. 99% of my lugers are (I think) original. Even an original (?) Wiemar era navy that I have that has a small cap hinge pin and an army frame. It would have a hard time passing a Tom Armstrongs inspection if it weren't clearly proof marked as a commercial Weimar Era navy Luger.

But the two or three Lugers that I had restored would have been religated to the trash heap if I did not do it. I saw the beautiful swans beneath those ugly ducklings. Someday, somebody is going to happy to have them. Ken Karsted did a fabulous job on them. The only comments that I get is that "they are too perfect".

Well, enough of my ramblings.
Big Norm

Big Norm,

That is a well stated position, but I do have to comment on your remarks about the creation of the Ideal holster. Viggo made enough changes in the design that it is not an exact copy of an Ideal holster so that it could not be termed a fake. It also was a labor of love, allowing him to put his considerable skill into making an item he would enjoy. Money isn't everything. Sometimes pride of accomplishing a difficult project is worth a lot more. Plus, he has a brand new rig that he can play with without fear of damaging an original.

I hope I am not coming across as judgemental. I just think highly of both you and Viggo, and I know you didn't intend your comment to be personal.

Best regards,
Ron

A post script...After a good night's sleep I have re-read Norm's comments on the Ideal holster re-creation and realize that read properly, it is not in the least bit critical. It is a complement on the great amount of effort that was required to create such an item. My apologies for thinking otherwise. Rather than edit out my original comments, I would rather take my lumps for leaping to a conclusion. You would think after all these years I would remember the quote that "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

Ron, Big Norm...The same can be said of recreating Luger holsters. I looked for five years before I decided I was never going to own an original Imperial 6" Navy holster and made my own.

Ron, Originals like you say, can be fragile and damaged easily. I can use my Navy everyday if I like without fear of damaging a very valuable original.

I still can't believe Viggo went to the trouble of re creating an Ideal stock and Holster...A labor of love to the MAX! He must be quite the machinist.

One thing to remember is these type of skills are really lost to all but a few people in the World today. The society we live in does not provide for the time and patience to cultivate craftsmen of this caliber and they are rare. It is as close to dying out as one could imagine. Jerry Burney

I went through the same process as Jerry Burney regarding finding an authentic Navy holster which I could actually use. No such luck.

Instead I bought a commercial model, and Jerry reworked it to make it look exactly like the originals.

Speaking of craftsmen, Jerry's work is really outstanding, and I feel fortunate to have been able to get him to re-create a real Navy holster for me.

Thanks again, Jerry.

Luke

Knowing Doc Fisher and others that have posted; I am sure these very honest fellows of good character will inform a potential, future owner of their pistols of any rework that has occurred.

All we can hope for is for each of us to be honest and true, and hope the next person in line of our pistol's ownership is made of the same stuff.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, I keep track of all reworks I do and if asked a particular variation and serial number I will say yea or nay about if I have reworked it.

Hi Guys, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I would say that The Making Of an Ideal Holster at the age of 87 while recovering from A "Radical Nephrectomy to escape Death from Kidney Cancer was more a Rehabilitation Program for me.
After all I could'nt have worked that spare job if I had wanted to, Too Old, and Too weak, to work more than a few minutes at a time, when I started.
I did it as a challenge to myself, I needed to prove to myself that I was still capable getting back of do things that are not do-able.
I think that I made that point, both to myself and to a few others in my locality, who thought that I would never be able to work again.
As a retired NACA/NASA Technician/Researcher I can never again surpass those contributions that I made to the Landing of Man on the Moon and the Landing of Spacecraft on Mars ect.
Now I'm Only making what small knowledge I gained available to any one who wishes to hear how some of these things were done a lifetime ago.
Back when the Age of Science and Machine was beginning to force man to seek answers to the inevitable Grand Questions, How?, When?, Where?, Why?
ViggoG

My greatest admiration, Viggo.
You are quite a man.

Luke

Ron, Jerry and Viggo,
You are right about my including Viggo in my comments. I debated about including that paragraph in expressing my frustrations. I compromised myself during my writing by erasing his name but that probably was not good enough.

Jerry, I have never critisized you because, even though I have never seen your work, I consider you one of those skilled craftsmen who know what they are doing. As a matter of fact, I have a few artillery holster rigs that I think I will be sending to you sometime.

Its just that sometimes I see such terrible butchering of guns by amateurs just to make $25 more on a gun or even just to be able to sell it that I get real upset and I have to let off some steam.

I bought a navy Luger off of a guy that I don't like once for $1300. The guy I bought it off of probably paid less than that at an auction. That was a low price even a few years ago. I saw no pitting, the bore was good and the gun was all original. I turned it over to Ken Karsted and he did a miracle on it. He turned that pigs ear into a fine purse. I have shown that gun to the guy who sold it to me just to rub his nose in it. What a change in his attitude! I have shown it to other collectors during discussions about restorations and I now know that I should not feel any shame about doing it. That gun was considered junk when I bought it and evenually it would have vanished. I consider that gun a treasure now. Someday, someone else is going to own it and they too are going to consider it a treasure.

Now don't get me wrong. I very much do think that Ed Tinker is right in his comments. We are very much closer than we are apart in our philosophy. I wish that I could show the above mentioned navy to Ed over a few very cold beers. Certain guns should not be touched up or restored. These guns would generally be thought of as the rarer and more expensive Lugers. Maybe even the Nazi Era and contract Lugers where marks mean more than on Imperial Era Lugers. Even the guns that are restored should be done by professionals who realize that THE major part of restoring is in the prep work. An absolute minimal amount of metal should be removed (if any) and no marks should be added or enhanced. THEN you consider the type of bluing to use.
Big Norm

Luke and Norm,
Thanks Guys, Perhaps I should have said it a bit differently.
My intent in my post was not to seek praise or to be chastising of others.
In my long winded way I was trying to say that,
Everything has attributes that appear quite similar or very different depending on how you choose to look at them.
The elephant is in some ways similar to a Luger Pistol, Depending on how you look at them.
Why are you looking, Who is holding, Why is he holding, and the most important, What is the function of the end you viewing?
ViggoG

Viggo,
you are a real gentleman. I am sorry that I implicated you while making a statement of principle. I remember that I could have used many other examples just as well that would have served the purpose even better. But I got lazy and used you. I am normally a happy go lucky sort of guy and I often hear things about wrong doers in the gun world. While it is a learning experience for me, its frustating to hear what some people will do to make a fast buck on a gun that I like so much.

Norm,
No apology needed, I took no offense by your post.
I too am disgusted by the criminal acts of some persons in altering anything to appear to be something that it is not.
It makes it rough on the experienced as well as the novice.
It is a well known fact that the criminal mind works in strange ways, Con-Artists are for the most part very intelligent people who spend more time and energy working the Con than they would use if they applied themselves to a ligitimate business.
And to top it off they almost invariably make less in return, not including jail time.
I can understand why they do it, They like the challenge of something for nothing.
Its the same thought process that drives some persons to habitually gamble, a sort of high when you are winning.
I'm sure glad that most people are of the honest variety.
ViggoG

John S. you stated that ALL Thors reworks get his mark "NO exceptions"...care too comment?...

It's quite simple if you just check his website as I suggested...THOR (Ted Green) is a man of integrity...a scarce commodity in today's marketplace.

Here is the link:

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

Here is a quote from his website and a photo:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I ALWAYS add a rework mark, to alert a potential subsequent buyer that it is no longer an original Luger. It may look original thus the reason for adding the rework mark, to try and prevent any problems with the buyer knowing it is original or not. The small innocuous mark I place on the bottom of the stock lug is to note that this Luger has been reworked and is no longer an original. Really both the buyer and seller benefit from this in the long run. DON'T ASK ME TO OMIT MY REWORK MARK, because I WON'T OMIT IT and I wont argue about it! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/thormark.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/thormark.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

we are being side stepped here, so here is the question too Thor...on repair work, that is to say touch up work, such as the Mauser talked about above, do you mark the gun, so it bears a proof mark noting that it was touched up by you ?. Now I know you keep a log of your work, that is not the question. I am not talking about complete re-blue/restoration what ever you want too call it. But on touch up work where the gun can be bolstered sometime down the road by an unethical seller, is this gun somehow marked at time or rework by you....thanks very much.

Howard, I understand where you are curious, but being a gunsmith yourself, and I imagine, not on purpose after you have worked on them, but do you feel you have "fixed" guns that later were sold as bolstered, boosted etc.?

I ask, because your questioning appears to be pointed at Ted, and he makes an attempt to "mark" his work and I would say a huge majority of gunsmiths and gun restorers make no attempt to mark their work?

Ed

Ted,
where do you put the mark on say a 1908, with no stock lug?

Just wondering