Luger disaster
 

A disaster of major proportion has happened. I have a new collector grade 1940 Mauser, from Ralph Shattuck. A former friend, while I was away, thought to oil it for me. Whatever he used, destoyed it's value. Sent Thor pictures, but he doesn't do salt blue. The damage is to the bacj rught side of the frame, the blue is gone about the size of a dime. I haven't figured the way to post pictures, so if anyone has adivce I can E-Mail photos of the damage. Can anyone offer any advice, short of condolences for a reblue of the area of the frame? I know the collecters value is destroyed, but it is a perfect weapon otherwise and I want to restore. I understand I could destroy the proofs by reblueing and don't want that to happen.

If you follow the post picture threads in the New Member forum, I can see if the directions were worth a darn. Any feedback guys?

If you want, send them to me and I will post here for you.

Ed

May I E-Mail to you?

Here are some pictures of Roberts Luger with the damage.

I lightened them a bit and shrunk them down, hope they are okay:

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Mvc00055.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Mvc00056.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Mvc00057.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Mvc00058.jpg

I wouldn't blame your former friend for the condition of your gun. It appears that there was corrosion/rust in that area of the receiver that was removed prior to your purchase and cold blue was applied over that spot. Applying oil to cold blue will some times remove it in the manner as your pistol now appears. If your pistol had original finish in that area, oil would not remove it. This is my opinion based on the pictures and the assumption that you did nothing to the pistol.

If that is the only area that is suffering, reblueing will not affect the markings.

Wow Garfield,

Twice in one day I agree with you! The corrosion looks typical of what I call blood pitting... but of course it could be just rust from poor storage...

Robert, Unless you have just spoken to Thor, I would recheck with him because although he specializes in rust blueing, I believe that he may now be doing salt blue as well, or might have it done for you after his excellent metal prep work...

Rem-Oil does a good job of removing cold blue, and I am sure there are others that will do the same thing. If you suspect cold blue in other areas of the pistol, remove any oil and rub the area with your thumb until the metal is slightly warmed. The stink of copper sulfate will identify the cold blue.

So cold blue does not actually etch or rust the metal?

What does it do, esentially dye the metal ?

Let me get this right, there are some collectors out there who let other people clean their valuable firearms? That is antipathetic to me. <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

Heydrich,
I think if you will re-read his post, he didn't "let" someone clean and oil his Luger, the guy did it as a "favor" without being asked. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Also note the he is now a "FORMER" friend. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Heydrich,

My head is reeling. "antipathetic" I haven't heard that word used correctly for decades. I congratulate you.

Thanks Wes! I once saw that word used in a history book published in the 40s. And Hugh, I re-read Rjenning’s first post up there, and his exact expression is “thought to oil it for me.” (I don’t see the word “favor” up there anywhere.) But you’re probably right that he didn’t want him to oil or otherwise clean it on his own initiative. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Ed,

You are more or less correct, it puts a VERY thin acid rust coating on the surface of the metal, but doesn't penetrate like rust or dip bluing does.

If I have been following this thread correctly, it seems that a large spot on the Luger had been touched up with cold blue and some kind of oil removed the touch-up.

Johnny mentions that Rem-Oil will do this. Not sure what this is or where to get it. Will any of the standard cleaning and lubricating oils such as *Break Free CLR* remove cold blue?

Luke:

Never tried them all and there are alot of variables, such as type of cold blue used, how much effort was taken to apply it and how long ago it was applied. But to try to answer your question, most lubs and particularly a lub that has bore cleaning properties will remove/ighten cold blue. Rem Oil is no more than a teflon based lubricant marked by Remington. Brownells seells it.

Rjennings
I agree with Garfield. A fairly large blemish on this Luger was covered with cold blue. The application of the gun oil took off the cold blue and re-exposed the blemish. The blemish greatly detracts from the appearance of your Luger. I would suggest returning the Luger to the seller for a refund.

A restoration craftsman could restore the area of the blemish but it would probably be expensive.
The re-application of cold blue would give you what you obtained from the seller prior to the damage.

Starting decades ago, a seller boosted many of his Lugers to mint by applying cold blue to the usual wear spots (side plate, barrel band, and straps). Most collectors would spot this and would strip off the cold blue with WD 40 (or other similar solvent) and return these Lugers to original condition.

You can see how the number of mint Lugers today greatly exceeds the number decades ago.
Jan C. Still
Note: WD 40 and other similar solvents may not be conductive to the long term health of original Luger finish. Use it sparingly and clean it off.

Cold blue in the sense of fast acting commercial instant blues, does NOT blue the steel. It plates a thin film of copper on the steel and turns the copper black/blue. It contains selenium as one of the ingredients. The selenium is what makes garlic smell so good and cold blue smell so bad. The third rate copper will often rub off with oil on a cloth.

Jan, I totally agree with you. I recently bought a near mint 1918 DWM from a dealer and had the same problem. Upon initial inspection there was no loss of blue but upon return to home and subsequent cleaning and inspection I found to my dismay that about 10% of the bluing had gone by the way. Live and learn, no report of condition was provided at the sale. I have for many years used nothing on the EXTERIOR of my rifles, shotguns and pistols but a good coat of Carnuaba auto paste wax and it does wonders for the finish. The whole idea is protection, this wax is made just for that, if it is good enough for Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches and the like, it is good enough for my Lugers. Try it, Mikey likes it! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

I want to thank all of you on the forum for your advice, your disbelief in my stupidity about friends, your expertise. In buying my first luger, I learned something, be careful. Fortunately the damage is going to be repaired, better than before, by Ken Karsted, in Illinois. Since the collector status is gone, no matter how beautiful it will be, I am also having the grip damage, visible in the picture, repaired. This by the grip master Hugh Clark. Again Thank You to a great forum for the support. I am soon buying another Luger and hope this works out for the better. Robert Jennings, ABC News in L.A.

Rjennings:

Let me see if I have this scenario correct. You recently purchased what was represented as a "collector's grade" Luger from Ralph Shattuck. I assume that you paid a "collector's grade" price for it. Shortly after receiving the pistol you determined that an area on the pistol had been "cold blued" to disguise an area that was blemished. (This business about your "friend" oiling it is not relevant".) Although several members of this forum have suggested that you return it to the vendor for a refund, you have decided to spend additional money for the purpose of refinishing your "prize", thereby, not only destroying any collector value that the pistol may have but reducing it's value to that of a shooter. Scenario correct?!?!? If the answer is yes, no explanation is required. Nor will I suggest that you might consider an alternate source for future luger purchases. Such advice, I fear, would fall on deaf ears.

Good Hunting,

P.S. "A disaster of major proportion" can yet be averted.

This is not a "negative" posting.

Interesting Garfield.


I didn't take it negative at all, well in the sense that you meant, but I see what you mean.

To Garfield! I take it you think I'm an idiot. I bought my first luger and I must say, it hasn't been pleasant. I have E-Mailed Ralph with my concerns, but think I probably have no recourse, since the stated policy is return within three days, as received, for a refund. As of now, I won't have reblued nor the grips cleaned, but will wait and see what Ralph and I can workout. I do apprecaite all the advice and consider this a very unpleasant learning experience. I own a beautiful collection of SAA 45's. Maybe I wasn't mean't to own a Luger.

Rjennings,

You were meant to own a Luger. The intro to collecting merely squeezes any bad Karma out of ya. After this, only good will drop on ya.

Do you know there are 500 members on this forum? Any dealer of Lugers wants a good reputation with all of those people. Use this as bargaining power with Ralph. And don't bluff. Carry through.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Rjennings,

I did not say that you were an "idiot". However, should you continue with the course of conduct that you had originally outlined you could well give me pause for thought along those lines.

Getting, stung isn't fun. Anyone who collects has and anyone who collects and tells you that they haven't is a liar. But, now, the thing to do, rather than whine about your misfortune, is to recoup! I have always been told that Shattuck is an honorable man. The fact that 3 days have passed, as is your "friend's" boo-boo, not relevant. You deserve a refund. I am certain that you could get a replacement, however, who knows how that would turn out.

It is up to you. If you allow this experience turn out to be your detriment it is because you have no cajones. IMHO

Good Hunting,

Whine about his misfortune? Doh. That wasn’t very sanguine Garfield. Anyway, looking up at the photos of his prodigal 1940 Luger, I can see why RJ might want to be obdurate and try to salvage it somehow. It looks like a German officer dragged it all the way back from Kharkov to the Oder River and then the Seelow Heights. It’s got character. But that blemish is gigantically obnoxious, it sticks out like Saddam Hussein at a John Birth Society meeting. But Robert, Garfield may be right, Shattuck may give you a really killer exchange for it. Maybe even something much cooler than this 1940 piece. And definitely employ Wes’ nefarious idea of mentioning this forum with its 490 plus members to Ralph. I’m sure Ralph would defecate his pants if he thought his reputation might be skunked here. And I don’t think that anyone here thinks you’re an idiot. But maybe Mr. Jennings was one of those ABC reporters who had his gas mask on too tight during those first scud attacks during the Gulf War. LOL. (Joke! Please don’t flame me. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] )

Mr. Rjennings

You are not an idiot. We have all been where you are today.

Having said that, and knowing Mr. Garfield, I am confident that his comments were meant to help and in NO WAY were meant to imply anything about your level of intelligence. He is one of the most knowledgeable members here and has been very helpful with his straightforward answers to hard questions.

Whatever you decide to do, remember always to be very, very careful in your inspection of newly purchased Lugers. My guess is that about 50% of those on the market have been boosted. Shame.

Good Luck,
Luke


Mr. Garfield,
As usual, you are dead right. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Regards,
Luke

Yo, Luke:

What is with this "Mr." business?! Are you flaming me?

Good Hunting,

Garfield

Nein, nicht so, nie.

Luke:

I reckon that I should have stuck one of those infantile little faces on that last message to indicate that I was not serious but can't bring myself to do that. Anyway, I reckon you knew.

Well Garfield those infantile smiley faces keep people from thinking you are po'd at them.

This is like e-mail and I can't see your face to know if you are kiddin or being a jerk. So, when I am playing around, I try to let the other guy know that. Some people have thin skins, some have thicker skins and some have wrinkled skins.

Gee, why couldn't I have figured that out by myself?

<img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />

It has been my experience with Garfield, that he says exactly what he means, but you have to read carefully what he is saying.
The sentence structure is just complex enough that a quick reading will most likely convey the wrong interpretation.
Upon slow, careful reading, I find that his composition was not quite what I expected and the fault was mine.

(And, yes, Luke was flaming Garfield.)

Wes,

Garfield is refreshingly direct. Wish everyone were as straight.
And, no, I was NOT flaming Garfield.

Luke


No, Garfield, I didn't take you seriously, but I will avoid those infantile faces in the future. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Regards,
Luke

Okay Guys :

Before we burn Ralph Shattuck at the stake and declare him the Antichrist of the Luger World, can I ask another "flying pig" question ?

Robert, are you sure your friend merely used oil to spruce up your gun ?

What if some corrosive chemical was used that "accidently" removed original blue ? And your friend was not quite honest with you regarding what he/she did ?

Interesting how some made the logic leap of a re-blued sold as an original, based on what Robert said his friend reportedly did (i.e. heresay info.) and conclusions about this luger being boosted was taken for fact.

Unless I missed it in the thread, I do not think Robert confirmed, or denied, that he rubbed the gun and smelled garlic or stinky copper sulfate odors...so how did we all conclude it was a re-blue job ?

If we place ourselves in the seller's shoes (e.g. Ralph or Bob Simpson or Doug Smith or others); how would you feel if a buyer called and concluded that the gun must have been "boosted" when it might be possible that damage to the finish may have been caused by other factors...?

Let me put on my bullet-proof body armor, before you guys start replying...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Pete; I find it hard to believe the fellow used something that removed the original bluing. Even if he did, why would it only remove the original blue in this area?
Lonnie

Pete,
If you look back through the thread you will find that there are several who agreed with Garfield's assesment of cold blue (BTW I agree also). Garfield and some of those folks have been at this a long time and have developed an "eye" for such a thing, probably through having had the experience themselves. I also know of a couple of gentlemen who routinely used to touch up muzzles and side plates to enhance the looks of otherwise really nice pieces. Another could so skillfully use plastic wood and shoe polish on chipped grips that it was really hard to detect. Once you started to clean either of these "enhancements" it became immediately clear what had happened.
In defense of all dealers (not that they really need it) they handle many more guns than we ever will. Sometimes they do not give them the scrutiny they should and pass on what later turns out to be less than they had represented it to be.
Some dealers will acknowedge their mistake and eat the loss. All too often, it is the customer that eats it.

Okay: Here is the end of this string! There will be no refund nor replacement! Garfield, all the balls in the world won't change this decision. As you like to say, whatever caused the blue to come off, is irrelavent. Ralph stated" The weapon was received in mint condition and it wasn't returned within three days in the same condition. His policies are stated and unequivocal" As some of the forum members have stated, a dealer handles many guns, and cannot know everything about every weapon. This has been an education. I take it I'm not the first to have this happen and won't be the last. I now know to examine a luger, before I finalize the deal, with a fine tuned glass.I appreciate all the advice, etc. But no threat of coersion or any other tactic will change this policy. I was told even with 95% of the blue, the Luger, otherwise original and mint is still worth what I paid $1495.00. I will never know, because at my age, soneone will sell it after I am gone.

Whoever told you it is still worth $1495 is full of s--t!! It wasn"t worth that much before the "accident". We have all been burned in this respect, you are just the lastest among us!!
Lonnie

While I feel the urge to make comment regarding the shoddy treatment visited upon a new collector by a "world reknowned dealer", I recall an admonition that my sainted mother had occasion to pass on to me, "If you can't say anything nice, dummy up!".

Out of respect for her, I'll do that.

However, because, or at least I thought, one of the main purposes of this forum was to assist collectors as they attempt to navigate the pitfalls one might encounter while traveling the collector road, an observation of a general nature might be in order. It regard the mantra which I have heard repeated on this forum to the effect that because a dealer handles "a lot of guns" somehow he should not be held responsible for misrepresenting an item's condition or originality. This concept is as absurd as the folks that tout it. I suspect that it originated from the same source that came up with the "Black Widow and Eastern Air Force" myths.

P.S. I find that I am compelled to also comment on the "Even though I sold you a piece of crap, it is still worth what you paid for it!" ploy; a person has to be without shame to mouth those words. IMHO