Unusual magazine
 

Luger magazines usually are as follows: nickel or white metal tubes have wooden bottoms and blued or blackened tubes have aluminum bottoms. I have a magazine with a blued tube without any markings whatsoever with a WOODEN bottom that has had the serial number sanded off. You can still see a "+" mark. It has been varnished. Both Still and Kenyon do not show darkened tubes and wooden bottoms in any of their photos. Is this a total aftermarket fabrication? Does anyone know if this could have been original?

Herb,

I have one like that too. It is a DWM magazine, wood bottom with a military serial number. It is blued, but it must be salt-blue as it is blue inside as well. The mag-light shows the finish to be old.

I suspect mine was blued sometime after manufacture, why is anybody's guess. Check the inside of yours, if it is blued it is certainly later work.

--Dwight

I have several of these "blued" mags. Per Walters "The Luger Book" page 159...."most items (mags) made before 1908 recieved a protective nickel coating, those of lated make being tin plated or blued." Hope this is of some help.

Hi Herbert,
It is highly unlikely that your blued magazine with the wooden bottom is correct. Blued tubes did not start showing up until the "M" block of the 1936 S/42's, so that dates the tubes at the earlist as 1936. The latest that I know of a wooden base was the Obendorf 1934 Mausers. The serial number being sanded and varnished just adds to opinion of it being messed with and non-original. Guess it is your call, but it is very doubtful in my opinion.

Bill, are you saying that John Walter's is wrong on this....I have owned and seen too many for this to be some after market rework. Please, what is your source for this information, thanks.

I have a 1918 DWM Luger #8899a...in mint condition with a matching mag.....wood bottom...blued body....I am sure this is original...Peter...
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/MVC-840S.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/MVC-841S.JPG

I'm with you, but I also really respect MauserLugers, Bill, opinion. He has been right on with so many of his posts here, let's see what he has too say. thanks.

This is a real good topic indeed! Interestingly, I was thrown into confusion last year when I examined in northern Europe a near mint 1917 Artillery Luger (with light beach wood grips) serial #2Xa with its matching stock/holster - when I removed the matching magazine (the magazine bottom having the same kind of wood as the grips), the magazine body was blued. In my opinion, if the LP08 is genuine and near mint, why would somebody want to make a stupid mistake and blue the magazine? It did not appear that somebody blued the magazine at a later date which would have been easy to detect.

For the time being, I have to agree with Policeluger and Lugercollector (Peter) that these late (1917/18) magazines are correct, but I would need to examine additional military P08/LP08 Lugers with the same magazines until I make a better opinion.

Albert

P.S. Lugercollector, can you please take the pictures of your magazine in daylight in order to see the blue finish better. Repost it or send them to me at imperialarms@att.net - Thanks

Hi All,
I have no reference to quote to verify my opinion. As I stated before, it is a fact that the blue rolled magazine tubes did not exist until mid 1936. The wood bases ended as far as I know on the Obendorf Mauser Lugers of 1934. I think some later Dutch Lugers might of had wooden bases but I'm not familar with them.

No one mentioned what Lugers these are being issued with, but if "Lugercollector" has a 1918 DWM military Luger with a blue tube, then it has been messed with and the tube changed from a nickel to a blue at some time, as it was not issued that way originally in 1918 as it is not possible.

The ONLY Lugers that these blue tubed wooden bases have a remote possiblitly of being correct on in my opinion would be police reworked Lugers, and then only a slight chance. The fact that 1936 is the earlist possible date for the blued tubes means that these would have been reworked for a police Luger after that time, which all the Mauser Police contracts at this time have the H.S. police magazines. So, any blue tube with a wood base would have to be a rework or repair after mid 1936. Official orders at this time would not allow a blued tube with a wooden base on a Mauser military Luger.

I have over 50 Weimar complete rigs and I've only had one police Luger that had a blued tube with a wood base and that was a so called sneak with a blank toggle and in the "T" block. It has two matching magazines with both bases wood and one tube nickel and tube blue with "1" and "2" on them.

I just do not personally believe that you are going to ever find a blued tube with a wooden base on an Imperial army Luger, or Weimar military Lugers, and very, very few on Police Lugers. Yes, Police Weimar Lugers have a combination of wood based magazines and metal based magazines, but not wood bases with blued tubes as the time frame just doesn't indicate this in my opinion. You can justify this by saying that these are arsenal replacements, or field repairs, but I'm not buying it, as they could just as well be 1988 exchanged jobs too.

The sear safety was added in someting like 1932 or 1933 and the magazine safety was removed in something like 1937. The Weimar rework Lugers had long been reworked by Simson or DWM by this time and the only thing being done to them at this time was the above mentioned work and the possibility of new or repaired magazines. Chances are that at this time if the magazines were exchanged they would have had new police issued H.S. magazines and not new blued tubes with the old wood bases which at this time had been officially replaced by orders to use metal bases. I'm very suspicious of these blue tubed wooden based magazines and in my opinion most are post WW2. Just my opinion with nothing other than personal experience to back it, so take it for what you think it is worth.

Given all the mag bottom changing that is still going on today with GT's exc wood bottoms, I'm sure that defective tubes have been replaced for years. Another recent possibility that I've also seen posted on the Forum, are the post WW2 Finnish extruded (not Schmeisser type) blue tubes with unnumbered crude wood bottoms that InterOrdnance is selling for $19.95 Tom H.

Hello All, I think ole MauserLugers has it right. If someone has a magazine with a military wood base and a blued tube, its been messed with. In my opinion!!!!!!!!

A possibility would be that someone had a dented tube and wanted to preserve a nice wooden base. With a few tools it isn't difficult to remove a magazine bottom and replace it. The difficulty in replacing a metal bottom to a different tube is getting the holes in the tube to line up with the holes in the bottom. With wooden bottoms the alignment is more forgiving.

My 2�¢ worth

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

I'm not sure here, but I tend to fall back and go with the great work of John Walter, he put much research into his book and MauserLuger can not state a reference to back up his claim. I wish someone would post in here who has additional documented information....yes I have seen and owned few blue tubes as compared to tin/plated, but Walter never said they were made in great numbers, just documented that they were made....it's all fun.

Fun...my left britches leg! This is gut wrenching!

(a little humor, there.)

MILITARY Luger Magazine Data: Jan C. Still
Imperial Lugers, Page 81
Weimar Lugers, Page 161
Third Reich Lugers, Page 125

Again I stress "Military". Army Directive December 4, 1928 required the change to aluminum bases, after the supply of wooden bases was depleted. The first mention of blue tubes was during the late 1936 production.

I can't comment on Police or Commercial since I haven't done any research on these.

Walter's comment was later, but not how much later is the question that requires an answer. Still said 1936, which clearly is later!

Based on these data, it seems clear that if the magazine botton is clearly Military, the tube shouldn't be blue!!

If anyone can shed further light, please do!!


[img]smile.gif[/img]

It is only human nature for us to accept things for the way we want them to be rather than the way they should be. Finding a blued magazine tube in a WWI Luger would be period wise the same as finding an S/42 toggle in a WWI Luger. Even though the numbers might match, it still isn't correct.

The mags, blue on wood, sit in a plastic parts box, along with others that for the most part will most likly end up beening sold by the widow Mrs. PoliceLuger. I am not in the least concerned as too thier value or trying to sell them. It is not about money or trying too get someone to valadate them. It is about learning, and no one has offered a published artical that states that blue on wood base is faked/aftermarket rework. As too the comment of s/42 Erfurt, please see Still's Weimar page 246. There is his offer of a 1940 Erfurt. I will state that I have wood bottom mags with what I believe to be un-messed with pins, that no one has touched since manufacture..lets see what others have to offer on this subject.

Hi policeluger,
To me this is a very simple question with a very simple answer. 1900 to mid 1936 = nickel tubes and mid 1936 to 1942 = blued tubes.

In my opinion documentation has been provided as to when the blued tubes were officially issued. Perhaps you can provide official documentation to support an earlier issue date?

I guess for now I am still not sure WW1 era mags can be or not be blued. Just went back and looked over one blued body, wood bottom, no other proof marks, mag and going on the base pin being untouched, well I still go with Walter's on this. This is just the fun of collecting.

Hi Guys!! In this discussion, I can't really tell you what is... but I can probably tell you what isn't... so here goes... there are some very slight differences in metallurgy between the early WWI mags and the Mauser WWII mags... and, there are also subtle differences in manufacture... one thing I know for sure, is that the plated mag's cannot be blued later... even if you strip them, and buff them, and sand them...it just doesn't work! The bluing will really take on a life of its own...and it looks nothing like Mauser! So heres my theory, if a mag shell is blued, or plated, it is done in quantity, and done during the manufacturing process, not later... So, if it has the distinctive Mauser salt blue... the answer is pretty clear... interesting... who knows! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Hello Gentlemen.....I will post some more pictures taken in daylight tomorrow.....the main reason I think the magazine is probaly original is that the gun was untouched for 31 years in a safe ...and prior to that,was apparently a vet bring back....I do not know for 100% sure that this was the way it was issued....however,it does not seem likely that someone would play with the mag 30-80 years ago....is there any way of telling the age of the mag tube/body!!???....Peter...

Hi Peter! Thats a tough one...but I have noticed one distinct feature on the Mauser rolled sheetmetal tubes that seems to be unique to Mauser only, regardless of the plating or blue... and that is: the die that was used to make the stops for the follower at the top of the mag. shell seems to be, IN MOST INSTANCES, an exact half circle... in other words the die was a round punch ground down to half it's dia.... most WWI mag. shells exhibit eliptical or flattened shapes in this area! Not a hard and fast fact, but something to take into consideration, to be sure! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Hello Peter,
You mention that your 1918 DWM was in a safe for 31 years and was a vet bring back I presume from WWII, so what does this prove? If this is correct, you have a WWI Luger that was apparently brought back after WWII by a vet, which has absolutely no bearing on how the Luger was issued in 1918, and only explains the condition it was in from 1945 until the present. In my opinion this clearly indicates that the tube was changed sometime between 1936 and 1945. If you want to justify it then you can play the "what if game" and say it was a field repair or and arsenal repair, but don't say it was an original issue.

Also, a 1918 DWM with a blued tube would be the same as finding a K-date or G-date Mauser Luger with a matching blued tube magazine. They just were not issued that way and if you do find one the tubes have been exchanged. Again, the question is when and by whom! The best you can hope for is to say it is a period repair?

So, this thread is actually very interesting and I am glad so much information has been discussed in a reasonable and informed response from all involved. Especially since it is one of those areas that can lead to one of those discussions of ---

1. Facts, give me article, book etc., substansial fact areas before I believe what you are telling me ...

2. I see what I have and believe in what I have in front of me and / or have seen with my own eyes and it must be true because I am an informed and intelligent person ...

And after I have read all of the above, I am led to the conclusion that more than likely the magazine has been reblued, yet there is, as Bill stated, a possibility of a period or long ago mixing of parts from an armorer or arsenal, so that would explain why several instances of this has occured and turned up.

I am also of the opionion that since 1945, that many guns have gone through a few hands and yet that is 57 years ago. 57 years is a fairly long period of time to remember or have had something done to a gun I picked up even before it was picked up by a vet.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Hey Guys...here are some more photos of this mystery mag.....the gun is a 1917 DWM not 1918....as per GT's post I put a 36 Mauser mag alongside.....as can be seen the tubes ends are different...my other ww1 mags exhibit the same characteristics as this one...also the interior does not seem to be blued??...I am of the opinion that the mag is original to the gun...however, I have no way of knowing for sure...I would go with 90% certain from my perspective....interesting discussion!!!!! Peter..
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Strange things happen with magazines but they are part of the history of the piece. My 1915 Police has a Schmeisser extruded stainless magazine with a police style wooden bottom, serial numbered to the gun in the police fashion, no letter suffix, a "2" stamp to show it was the spare and a *K on the mag. However the pistol appears never to have had a magazine safety, only the sear safety. Is it original to the police conversion? I hope so but will never really know. It also has both the original imperial eagle barrel proof and army Nazi "eagle" Middle period on the other side of the barrel.

Note this wood bottomed stainless mag is contrary to Walter's statement. I think Walter made a general statement about magazines not claiming it to be based on research. Walter also proposed that 1906 altered navy's were all altered in the Keil dockyard. The wide range in methods reported for this modification would suggest that is not probable. Like all research Walter's book is very good on what he reports as observed and verified fact but subject to errors on the guesses.

A Weimar police without the mag safety is found, and I have several, but like you stated it will have a sear safety. An HS with a wood bottom, I don't think this is original. It is the first I have heard of. I realy wish I had a solid feeling on blue tubes one way or the other, as for now I will stick with John Walter. I think I remember Krusewerks (sp) stating on his web page that he had 10,000 mags and was going to list them, yes 10,000 or 1,000s what ever it was, anyway someone with that much in stock could shed some light on this??.

Howard, Krause has been saying he was going to publish a list of his magazine numbers for years. Please don't hold your breath!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[img]frown.gif[/img] phooooo I was turning blue....pun intended...its all fun.

Dear Policeluger. Interesting that you mentioned Mike Krause. He does indeed have over 1000 luger clips! He also says that he is too busy making .45 lugers to classify them I have offered to help but am also too busy. In any event, Mike insists that blued tubes (rust blued) did indeed exist with wooden bottoms in WW1 manufactured DWM lugers and that he has "several". He gave me permission to post this and is open to comments.

Well, in view of this last thread, what does the rest of the forum think. I have always felt that blue on wood was correct, simply because I have always seen them. As I stated not in great numbers, but still seen them. I guess we will believe what we want, reguardless of what other may offer to differ. Please, for those who are of a different opinion as stated above, does this change any thoughts?. To Herb, thanks a lot for the info.

Admin Note: 3 duplicate posts deleted - JS)

Policeluger

Note I did not say HS I said Schmeiser. It is stamped on the spine running across the spine not vertically up the spine. The remains of
Sch----er show and the head and tail of the broad arrow below. If Haenel was above it may have worn off, lots of use on this one. So I do not know if it was Haenel Schmeiser or just Schmeiser The magazine tube may well have been replaced but the bottom has been noted as authetic police by several observers and most think it goes with the mag. It could just as likely be a mating of a stainess extruded mag with an existing wood bottom of a bent up magazine.

However, you should note how ready you are to say this mag is wrong (which it may or may not be) when you are so convinced the blued mag is right. I would say it is problematic whether either are correct unless further matching numbered guns with a definitive history turn up. Waffenamp USA turns out lots of mags and my immeadiate reaction to matching numbers is a question.

How does Krause know the blued mags are imperial period when he has only the magazine and not the pistol?? I am not being a wiseacre here, I am curious

[quote] Note I did not say HS I said Schmeiser. It is stamped on the spine running across the spine not vertically up the spine. The remains of
Sch----er show and the head and tail of the broad arrow below. If Haenel...<hr></blockquote>

Now Heinz, this is interesting, I don't know much about Haenel Schmeiser magazines. So, my questions is, did they say Haenel at times and then at other times Haenel Schmeiser?

Is there a breakdown anywhere, I haven't noticed one in my boks, but may very well have overlooked it?

Heinz,
I realy want too work on this one so lets try and see if we can work it out. First Mike gave his thoughts as that the mags are Imperial, perhaps not a published authority, but I feel he has a bit of Luger experance. I know that he's been around for years in the gun business, now this does not make him flawless, but worth listening to. I know that that two of my mags predate Waffenamp USA, and none show an Erfurt proof which may help fit things in place time wise. Now as too your mag...do you have Costanzo's WOL proof marks...if so we can talk proof numbers/pages ect. So please, try and give me your proof mark referenced to Costanzo and we can go from there...I do not believe I have ever seen a Hanel or a HS proofed mag with a wood bottom. could this have been an Waffenamp UAS worked mag...this is all in fun and in the spirit of Luger fellowship.

Hi,
You guys are mixing apples and oranges again and you SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Military and Police are totally different and you can not say what rules for one rules for the other.

In this case, the DWM Military Luger with the blued magazine tube is a rework. The base is probably original but the tube has been changed. Again, this is because they did not make any blued tubes until 1936. The time frame is incorrect. You can not have an issued gun in 1917 or 1918 with a 1936 tube -- it is impossible -- these are reworks.

The Police magazine could very well be correct as these Lugers were reworked and the H.S. tubes could very well have been used on a wooden base. Lots of wooden bases were restamped and put on different tubes. The time frame would support something like this as you are using an old base on a new magazine tube. Nothing wrong with this one. The police magazines are an odd bunch with just about anything possible, such as bases and tubes and numbers. Not the same regulations as what the Army magazines were required.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

MauserLuger, I believe you have hit the nail on the head and I will try and work with the info you have provided. To say police..."are an odd bunch" is very correct. But still are you sure that, or have you seen, other HS mags on wood bottoms and were not all HS mags extruded. I do not believe Costanzo references to this, then again it is getting to be perhaps outdated? thanks for your time and trouble. Still I am troubled, just going to wip this one more time, an extruded mag body and a wood base

MauserLuger: as usual you are right. I did not mean to drift so far and I do know better. Imperial military is very standardized, Weimar police is poverty driven. Will start a new thread :-)

Happy thanksgiving to all