B W Grips
 

I just purchased a set of Black Widow grips. I thought they looked a bit too glossy and I started to wonder if they were repo's or not. I compared them to another set I have from my 42 byf they were exactly the same except the shine. I went to clean them up because I thought they might have a little oil on them that was making them shine. When I ran hot water on them I noticed I could bend them easy. I tried the same thing to my other grips and they didn't bend. These are plastic and not bakelite. Just thought I would post this here,maybe this will help tell the repo's from the originals. Don

Don, do the plastic have threaded holes on the back side and do the threads match the grip screw threads?

Most after market grips are hard plastic and not as shiny as the original.

Frank, They do have threaded holes in the back. These are the nicest repo's I've seen. I will try and post a picture of them. I showed them to Ted Green and he wasn't sure either. I hate seeing repo's look this good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2252550216 Here it is.

Don, I'll bet you can return them!!! I certainly would for that price! Good Luck.

Hi Don! Yes, those fooled me also... I was in the hunt for awhile.. they sure look good.. I think Frank is probably right, the fellow has great feedback, I'm sure he would listen to your concerns! best of luck to you, til...lat'r...GT

I'm sure he will take them back also. I wouldn't mind keeping them but not for the price I paid. G.T. have you seen these up close? Don

Hi Don H.,

I find it difficult to believe that the folks at FGS would have made a mistake with these and called them original when they were not. If yours are not original, then there are some repros out there that are even fooling very knowledgable folks...

You might want to look at some of the detailed photos in the following past message threads and compare these photos to your grips. When I saw your pair on the e-Bay auction I, too, thought they sure looked original.

1. In the "Luger Accessories" section, take a look at a discussion started on 10-12-2003 by Jack Lawman.

2. In the "P-08 Military Luger" section, take a look at a discussion started on 1-23-2003 by ToggleTop.

3. In the "P-08 Military Luger" section, take a look at a discussion started on 4-26-2004 by Nomadr.

Let us know what you see when you compare yours with these other BW grips...

I would be especially curious to know if the grips you have have the unique "swirling" machine patterns on the "islands" on the back side of the grip...as shown in some of the previous BW photos posted in these other discussions...

Here is a photo from one of the discussion :

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...ison_copy1.jpg

And another :

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bwgripsinside_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bwgripsinside_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hi Don! No, I just saw them on ebay, same as you... I didn't even study them that close until your forum post because the feedback was so steller, I thought they would most certainly be authentic... even in looking at them as close as I can from the photo, I can't see any fatal flaws.. they still look good to me?? But, phonolic thermoset resin parts probably shouldn't deform under hot tap water... ?? This is where I don't have any answers... I will be real interested to know what your further research turn up! Best to all! til...lat'r...GT

I feel sure to say these are repo's. They look as if they wrer molded from a set of originals. There is swirling machine patterns on the islands but they aren't sharp like my other set that I know are correct. The best way that I can describe it is if you took an original set and spray painted them with a thin coat of gloss black paint where you can still see the machine marks. I'm going to try and post some pictures.

I have the pictures but I can't figure out how to get them on the forum. I could email to someone that knows how. Don

You can send them to me and I will post them for you!

Here are Don's grips.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips002.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips002.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips004.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips004.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips010.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips010.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips013.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips013.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips015.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips015.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips027.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips027.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips029.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips029.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips030.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips030.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Don,

Have you tried putting them on a Luger. How's the fit?

They had a second set that just sold a couple of days ago. They went for $179. I think they used the same pictures.

Tracy

Don, Tracy is correct!! The one thing I have noticed is that any of the "fakes" I have seen didn't fit well, especially at the bottom where the grip meets the frame. There is almost always a gap. Original grips still fit well after 60 or so years.

Looking at your photos, they do appear to be too shiny, but it could be the flash and any liquid (oil) you may have applied.

Tracy, I did see the others that sold on ebay and I already emailed the buyer but haven't heard back yet. If they came from the same mold they should identical in every way. I did try these on a Luger and they fit tight at the bottom. Also if you look at the pictures 2,3,and 4 notice the small indentation on the end of the islands. It looks like a contraction from cooling. I'm sure these are fake and I started this post to help others to tell the difference. I don't know where these are coming from but they are the best fakes I've seen.

I had thought since they are different materials perhaps different density? Would they weigh the same on an ounce scale?

Does anyone else have a pair of these suspected fake grips that may have come from the same source? If we can get some comparison photos posted in this thread, we should be able to see IDENTICAL marks on the inside.

The outsides "look" good to me, but the extreme shininess is disturbing... and my initial impression is the same as above... that these have been recently molded from a "genuine" set. Let all who can please contribute to this thread, do so, till we can try and resolve this interesting question.

I would consider one possibility... that there may have been some kind of late war formula change in the type of phenolic or plastic being used due to critical war shortages, but that is simply a theory... I also have say that I have not seen any specimens this shiny in the past, and that is what makes them suspect to me...

I hope Luke Smithwick is listening... I would love to have his input on these photographs...

John I do agree with you 100% in that these were molded from an original set. Look at the left grip just above the grip screw on the border. there is some small scratches that are from the originals. I would be willing to guess these same scratches are on the other pair that sold on ebay also. If the buyer will contact me I can find out and post what I find out. Jerry Burney also has a nice pair of repo. Krieghoff grips and I think they might be from the same maker.

Don,

When I saw the second pair on e-bay, I e-mailed the seller asking "Why are these up for sale again? They were sold a couple of weeks ago for $177"

His response was "I am parting out an old collection and had more than one set"

From your pictures, these do not look the same as the pictures on e-bay. It's my opinion that the one you received are not the ones pictured on e-bay.

Tracy

I think Don's first posting where he comments,
"I noticed I could bend them easy." is revealing.

I have never seen an authentic BW grip which would bend easily. The authentic versions were made from a brittle material, Bakelite.

The unusual shine supports the hypothesis that someone has made a fairly decent casting from an original pair.

The price, $177, is probably about $160 too high IMHO.

Luke

Tracy look again at the scratches above the grip screw from both auctions.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2252550216 Andhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36049&item=2256129043 Either the seller used the same photo for each auction or these grips came from the same mold. Or both grips are scratched in the same place, that I don't think. If you look close you can see it.

Don,

Look at the placement of the grips to each other. My guess is that the seller used that same picture for both sales.

You are right they are placed the same. I will know for sure if the other buyer will get back with me. I will post the findings if he does. Thanks

Don,

Have you talked to the seller yet? Are you planning on returning them? If so, let us know how that turns out.

It would be nice if Jerry Burney would post pics of the Krieghoff repos. Are they Ritzman copies or the course brown type?

Tracy

Hi Don H.,

Well...you forced me to take both of my grips off my '41 BW and run under warm and even hot tap water...no change in their flexibility (or lack thereof) at all...

The outfit behind the sale of these grips on e-Bay have stellar reputations with most folks on this Forum and I think on the Jan Still forum as well.

I do not think these would have "slipped" by FGS' Doug Smith's or Ken Clark's notice...

If might be possible that a younger member of their organization with less experience in eying real from repro may have been the originator of the postings on e-Bay and it is very possible that person just may not have known the difference. I noticed the e-Bay parts on the auction are being sold from S. Kentucky while the guns sold by FGS originate from Portsmouth, Ohio...which reinforces my theory the "big dogs" at the firm may not know some repros were sold as originals...

My advice would be to call the big dogs at FGS in Ohio and request they look into the matter for you.

http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/contact.html

You might also consider "cutting & pasting" (by drag & click to highlight) this entire discussion thread and "pasting" it into a Word document. When yo do this all the special fonts of the Luger Forum's format along with the posted photos will be copied identically. You could then send the Word document to the folks at FGS...if they do not log onto the Forum, themselves...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Seller agreed to take the grips back and give me a refund. He said he bought them at a gun show. I have an idea as to who is making these and I ordered a set. I will post the results when they come in.

We shall await your follow-up report Don... Just out of curiosity, what did the set you just ordered cost? My guess is less than $20.00... Am I close?

John they were $35.00 plus $3.50 S&H

John when I called the Co. to order my set he told me that they do have the threaded hole in the back. He also told me that he sold some to one person and he sold them for $125.00 each at a gun show. This co. also has Krieghoff in brown and black also.

It will be interesting to see if the manufacturing marks (and scratches, etc.) match the photos of the set you have returned...

Pete: So you know the seller from S. Kentucky is a former employee of FGS. I know him and know all at FGS. Thought you would like to know.

Don, would you mind telling us where you ordered them from? Maybe one of us is close enough to take a look?

Hi Sam,

Are you saying Chris Clark is no longer associated with FGS..thought the family link would last...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Sam, I too am surprised that Ken is no longer at FGS!! I have spoken to him many times and he sounds like a right guy. Oh well, I guess anything is possible!

How about Pete's question?

I hope Chris Clark has not left FGS????

Luke

Just received the grips and they are not the same as the others. I have no idea who is making these.

Don, Please post photos of the grips you just received so we can see the quality... if you need help with this, just ask.

These alleged "Original" Black widow grips are back on ebay from the same seller in Kentucky... same description...same photo :rolleyes:

My two cents consists of two words: Caveat Emptor <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />