Questions about my 1917 DWM Artillery
 

Love lugers and have owned several, but still am a novice regarding variants, markings, and such.
I purchased a 1917 DWM Artillery from a **well known and respected dealer** sometime back and have some questions...

1. On the bottom of the barrel near the breech, there is the matching serial no., then beneath that, the 'a', and beneath the a is the number 8,82. What is the significance of the 8,82?

2. On the right-side receiver flat where the proofs are found, it looks as though the original proofs were peened out (slight depressions) and the 4 DWM military proof markings can be seen stamped in the peened depression. What is the history behind this...re-proofed? The bluing is intact within this peened area...how is this possible, since it is original finish?

Thanks in advance.

The 8,82 is the land diameter of the barrel in millimeters, but have no idea on the peened out stamps.

Received an emailed explanation from the **well known and respected dealer**...said it was an 'Ordnance Correction'. This is the only example I have ever seen though...

And, quite probably, it will be the last you will see.

Gurgle...gurgle...you guys are starting to make me NERVOUS. Not being very knowlegable on Lugers, I felt it was safe buying from the **well known and respected dealer**. All I can say is the finish looks original to me and is white in the right places...and (here goes [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] ) was advertised as such by the **well known and respected dealer** Pic below...
http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/Vi...=14&courtesy=1

Closeup pic...

http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/Vi...=15&courtesy=1

IMO, the pistol has been in a country where the original inspection & proof marks were obliterated by punching. From what I see in the pictures, the marks look very similar to those found on East German reworks where some stamps were similarly punched. (It's possible that other countries employed the same method to rid guns of their original markings.)

The re-stamping of the Imperial inspection marks is uneven from left to right and I've never seen an Imperial Luger with the original marks that far out of alignment. Also, the fourth stamp, which should be the DWM eagle, is missing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's my conclusion that the gun is not original.

Just to keep the info flowing...the 4th proof is there...just doesn't show up in the pic. Awaiting more explanation from the seller...will advise when I know more. Right now I'm headed for the drug store to buy a jug of Maalox...

[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still:
<strong> Doubs I have observed the proofs peened out on Nazi era Lugers (particularly the Nazi emblem) but the proofs were never restamped as on the Luger described by Miner. I have to agree with you that based on the imformation supplied this luger does not appear to be origonal. Perhaps the seller (called a **well known and respected dealer** this morning) can supply additional documentation.
Jan</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's been my experience as well to see Nazi markings peened (punched) far more often than Imperial markings. Nor have I ever seen stamps from either period struck over the peening dimples... until now. I do admit that the term "Ordnance Correction" has my curiosity meter pegged out.

Mr. Miner, I hope you're able to resolve your issues to your satisfaction. Please keep us informed.

[quote] **...said it was an 'Ordnance Correction'. <hr></blockquote>

Miner,

As Jan suggested, you must ask for documentation of another example of this restampiing over peen.

I would also want my shipping charges refunded.

Do the collecting fraternity a favor and post quite a few more photos of this pistol with serial numbers (before you return the pistol).

Here are some more pics...wish I had a better quality camera. The serial number on the barrel acually looks more crisp than the photo indicates, and to my untrained eye there appears to be a faint halo around the S.N. and suffix a, that is not present around the lands dia. no. BTW, this purchase took place via mailorder about a year ago, so I doubt a request to return is going to be granted. As I stated before, I thought I was dealing with a highly respected dealer and had no concerns about originality. When I received the pistol and noticed the peened/reproof I just assumed it was due to the re-issue (commercial/military) story given prior to sale. At no time during the pre-sale process did the dealer mention the peened area.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Lu...csleftside.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Lu...epicsfront.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Lugermorepicstop.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Lu...sbarrelbottjpg

BTW, is there a way to attach (upload) pics directly with the post without using an offsite photo hosting service?

Miner,
Yes. Go to http://www.lugerforum.com/

On the left of this frames page you will see the Upload Photos link. From there is pretty self-explanatory.

I have not seen a reply from any of the well respected dealers about any of the phony guns they are selling. Since people don"t usually name them they will continue to swindle!!
Lonnie

Lonnie:

The seller of this Artillary was named, however, the Moderators decided to substitute the seller's name with, "well known & respected dealer". Sort of sounds like something one would find written in an obituary. IMHO, whoever added the above appellation needlessly "gilded the lily"; "well known dealer" would have been sufficant.

Since I'm one of those dang moderators, do as I did, read often, write down and copy that information.

For legality I don't blame those dang guys.... I also understand Lonnie and Mr. Garfields feelings.

Oh Garfield, [img]wink.gif[/img] ed

Ed:

I appreciate your candor. You are my favorite moderator. We really must get together for that libation or two, seriously.

With that said, I cannot help but note that the "legal liability" excuse is overworked on this forum and, most certainly, used in a highly selective fashion. To suggest that it is specious would be an understatement. By way of example, very recently one of the members stated that, in his opinion, Randy Bessler (a well known dealer by any measure) had treated him in a shoddy manner and in the member's opinion had, in fact lied to him. Those comments and that dealer's name were not "modified" such as done done on this thread. It would appear to me that "WN&RB" enjoys preferencial treatment. But then, I could well be wrong; perceptions are oftimes merely illusionary.

When a person that is wronged and it is a directly something that happened to them, I have trouble not agreeing 100%. I read the comments and since it was a direct event, left it alone.

so, I cain't tell ya, another persons eyes saw it and thought, ... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Guys/Gals: For the record, the moderators did not edit my posts to replace the dealer's name with **well known and respected dealer**, I did. When I started this thread, I had no reason to suspect there was anything bogus with my Arty...was only curious about the history of the peened reproofs. Furthermore, I also thought that this dealer was beyond reproach which compounded my gullibility. As soon as replies to my original post began questioning the originality of the pistol, I realized the implications and thought it best to edit the dealer's name until more info could be gathered and a solid determination made. This was not done out of any fear of legal action, but rather basic common courtesy...I may have already made one mistake in judgement out of ignorance and I don't want to risk another. As pissed as I am, I would not want to damage anyone's reputation as long as there was any reasonable chance that the luger was legit. All this having been said, I fully intend to disclose the dealer's name, as well as our communications leading up to the sale in which I specifically asked whether this gun had original finish, was all matching, etc. and was assured that it was. At this point, what I really need is to somehow get a hands-on independent evaluation/appraisal of this luger from an expert to confirm its misrepresentation. Due to my location here in rural eastern Kentucky, this won't be easy. Stay tuned as I promise to reveal all aspects and the individual dealer involved when I feel that all the evidence is in. I have collected WWII vintage US Military arms for a number of years and this was my first venture into a 'collectible' luger. Knowing, up front that I lacked the knowledge to properly evaluate a luger, I went to a source that I thought was safe and beyond reproach. Shame on me. If this turns out to be an unquestionable fraud it will truly be a sad day for the collecting community. I thank all of you for the info/opinions and support that you have provided both on and off-line. I would still appreciate hearing from anyone who feels that there is a chance this pistol could be legit. In the meantime, I will search for a knowledgable collector in my general area of the world, where I might have it examined in person.

Miner, check and see how far you are from Portsmouth Ohio, the "digs" of Doug Smith. Doug would be a great person to evaluate your pistol.

Miner, You might also have FGS check the sideplate on your LPO8. In your photo, the blue appears considerably different and the number die set should the the same one that you show on the bottom of your barrel. Tom H.

Any of you guys correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the origins and circumstances of the 'peened area' can be debated until the cows come home without a definitive resolution and that there are really only 3 issues to be dealt with...

1. Is the finish completely original?
2. Are the proofs legit?
3. Have any parts been replaced, remarked, and/or renumbered.

Since the seller described this luger as matching and excellent original finish, if the answer to any of these 3 questions is YES, then the gun was misrepresented. If any of these discrepancies can be independently verified to the seller and he refuses to provide a refund, then a fraud has been perpetrated.

I will be interested in hearing your opinions.

Hi Miner,

I want to personally thank you for stepping in and correcting publicly the misconception that your remarks had been edited by a moderator of this forum. I appreciate your candor and your motives in not naming the dealer until the FACTS are known. There is way too much jumping to conclusions based on speculation that takes place...before all the facts are public knowledge.

For the record: When editing of a post is done by the admin staff of this site, (with the exception of correcting mispellings which I do on a regular basis for more folks than I can count) it is accompanied by the initials of the person doing the edit and the reason why, unless it requires no explanation due to context

Please do keep the forum advised on the status of your investigation into the facts regarding your Luger... and be careful not to be led down a dark path by anyone with an agenda...


BTW, check your last paragraph in your last post above mine... I think that "YES" might not apply to all three questions here? You can edit your own post by using the pencil&paper icon at the top of it...

Best regards,

John Sabato

Miner although I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in figuring out the arty, I am interested and pleased in all the discussion.

postnote, Like John said, if I change something, I add my little fat intials EBT to the post.

My apologizes to the Moderators. I did wrongly conclude that one of you had edited the original post and as my comments may well detract from the serious business addressed in this thread, I apologize to the interested members.

Setting the punched out proofs aside for the moment, from the photos it seems that the rest of the gun (e.g. finish, barrel markings, side plate, etc.) appear legitimate. Has anyone spotted something I missed? I'm not supporting one opinion or another, I'm just checking my observation. Thanks. [img]confused.gif[/img]

Hello Miner,

A while ago I posted a message about seeing a guy (on this Forum) take the same luger to Doug Smith, Ralph Shattuck, and Bill Christensen at the recent Reno Gun Show.

In no specific order the assessments were : 100% orginal, 100% refinish, and maybe some re-blue on the side plate; all comments for the same gun.

You might want "many" experts looking at your gun.

And no, Garfield; I am not making excuses for one dealer or another...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

As has been pointed out, it is difficult to evaluate the blued finish from pictures, particularly those posted on the net given the availability of photo enhancement progarams and/or the difference in appearance created by a particular camera.

To Ron Wood (Name edited for correct spelling by ADMIN-JS [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ): I agree with lugerdoc's comments regarding the appearance of the numbers stamped on the parts,etc., and note that the "4" on the sideplate does not appear to be similiar to any of the other 4s appearing in the pictures. In fact, it appears rather unique.

The long and short of it is, however, that the pistol needs to be examined, "hands on" by an impartial person with knowledge and experience in this area of collecting.

Doug Smith would be an excellent choice.

Garfield,

Apology accepted. Everybody makes mistakes (including me).

On the matter of photographic enhancement. The photo tweaking I have done may change the perceived colors to provide more clarity of the gun's landscape but can't change the finish coverage. Colors that each member sees on his monitor will also vary depending upon the quality of the monitor and video card combination.

I agree that this gun needs a first hand examination by at least one, and as Pete has recommended, as many as practical, collectors who know what they are looking for...

While we wait for that to happen, I would like to comment on the matter of the numeral 4 on the sideplate. The photo is just slightly out of focus even at a 1:1 (actual size) ratio, but after looking at the area where the sideplate, forward receiver, and takedown lever are visible, I think the wierdness concerning the number on the sideplate may be lighting and pixelation issues. Another photo under slightly different lighting conditions should clear up the disparity with the number 4.

Miner, would it be possible for you to try and photograph this same area again and attempt a sharper image? If the file size is too large to upload to the forum server you can send it to me and I will be glad to post it for you...

I will send you my email address.

Thanks Garfield, I appreciate the feedback. On closer inspection of the 4 on the sideplate, it appears that there is a white speck on the "crossbar", perhaps a speck of dust or shiny metal, that makes the crossbar appear curved. My first impression too was that it was different than any of the other 4s, but I think the crossbar is actually straight and therefore like the rest of the numbers. Perhaps miner can verify this. I agree, very little can be determined about the blue on a gun from internet photos. In the final analysis, hands on inspection is the only way to go. Again, thanks.
(By the way, it is Wood. The "s" is silent like the "L" in banana). [img]smile.gif[/img]
I see that John Sabato slipped in a posting about the 4 also, before I could get my reply entered.

Sorry, Ron:

Seems like I can't get anything right today.

Garfield:
I wouldn't worry about it. Even on your bad days you do better than most.

miner,
Pull the sideplate and see if the first two digits of the serial number are stamped inside on the bottom edge. This should tell if the sideplate is original to the pistol.

Miner:
If you are not in a big hurry--the National gun day show will be at the Louisville fairgounds 21-22 Sep 02.
Quite a few of the Luger "Big Boys" will be there.
They might give you some hands-on opinions.

Ken D

Continued thanks for all the feedback folks...I will put my wimpy digital camera on a mini-tripod and try to take some better photos in outdoor lighting this weekend. Let me say again that I appreciate all the comments and opinions (pro and con) regarding my arty. I've been lurking here for a couple of years without posting much, but trying to soak in some of the wealth of knowlege found on this board. You guys and gals represent the best in our hobby...

J. Peppers,
Yes the 12 [edited to correct error in original post that read 42] is stamped on the inside bottom lip of the side plate. It doesn't look to me though that the 4's on the side plate and receiver were made with the same stamp. The slant stroke on the side plate appears to be squatier (is that a word?) and at a slightly sharper angle.

miner:

This business regarding the number stamped on the inside of the sideplate (I am directing these comments to Imperial lugers) can get abit confusing. It has been said that the first two numbers of the serial number should be found on the inside of the sideplate. In your case, it would be 12. Many times I have found only one number stamped on the inside of the sideplate. If that is the case the number seems to be the second number of the first two numbers of the serial; in your case it woudl be #2. You say that #42 is stamped on the inside. Well, at least you have two of the four in you serial, albeit the second and the third in reversed order. Won't speculate as to what that may mean, however, I don't think that it helps you out much. Again, I have not came across a reference that explains the meaning of the numbers stamped on the inside of the sideplate, consquently all of the above really doesn't mean much.

Gentlemen,

We are clouding the issue with facts. Send the pistol to an expert(s) and have the finish evaluated. Send pistol to expert(s) to have stampings of numbers evaluated. Federal Express - 2nd day delivery.