Question on original finish
 

Gentlemen, for your inspection, one 1917 DWM artillery. All matching including the mag. What can you tell me about the finnish? To me it looks like patina on the reciever, the barrel looks much better but is original. There is no blue inside and all markings and edges are sharp. I am new at this so I need your expertise.
http://members.aol.com:/h20colors/art2
http://members.aol.com:/h20colors/art3
http://members.aol.com:/h20colors/art1

That Luger's finish is rust blue and the interior should not be blued as the chemicals used in the rust bluing process are applied on the exterior only. It's a fairly slow process that gives a deep bluish-black finish. The hot salts type finish requires the entire gun be dipped and therefore the interior is blued. All bluing eventually wears off as in the case of the gun you have pictured and a patina or discoloration appears. Patina is rust. The trigger and some of the other smaller parts should be straw colored. This is done by heating the metal. They, too, have a patina of rust on them. IMO, your gun would be a prime candidate for restoration. I don't believe it would hurt it's value to have it rust blued and returned to it's original state. Perhaps someone else would not agree with me, but if you want it to look nicer, that would be the way.

The photographs you present arouse my suspicions.

Three things make me immediatly think this gun may not wear its original finish. 1: There is very little wear on the side plate island; 2: The trigger and locking bolt appear to have the same "brown" finish as the rest of the gun; and 3: the flat, unworn surfaces are excessively mottled.

This is my immediate reaction, based on the pictures presented. More detailed pictures would be helpful.

What is the wear at the muzzle like? Are the strawed small parts really "browned", or is this an effect of the photographs? What color is the extractor and ejector? What does the inside actually look like?

--Dwight

Digital cameras will cast a hue of the predominate color over the entire pic , in this case red. If the background were royal blue, the effect would be quite different.
Based on these three pics, by adjusting hue, gamma, and brightness, etc., it would appear that this pistol has been covered with browning acid and steamed. A blue background may give results that would compel a different conclusion.

The camera makes this look worse than it actually is. I have it in my hands right now and there is very little red cast. It looks just like patina to me. Good catch on the take down lever as it is not the original, it is being repaired. I believe it has possibly been touched up with cold blue at one time. The safety lever is blue, doesnt look like it was ever strawed, but it is numbered to the gun. Im just nt good enough to tell for sure. http://members.aol.com:/h20colors/art4 http://members.aol.com:/h20colors/art5

Nice looking gun, wish I had it ! The safety lever would have been strawed when new, (as well as the trigger, mag release and take down lever).

Looks original to me. If, as you state, the take-down doesn't match I'd pack it off to Thor for restoration then shoot the hell out of it.

looks like its covered with blood on the pictures <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Sverre.

Naw, that is where the acid pooled. I've seen quite a few examples of that on homemade Pennsylvania longrifles, before the maker learned his craft.

Does it have a "cold blue" smell? looks like an old attempt at cold bluing to me. :confused:

That gun has been cooked with some chemical application; I doubt if that is the *only* thing that has been done. Reminds me of starting a housefire to cover a murder, but then I am skeptical.
Tom A.

Packet,
You might carefully take the grips off to check the finish under them.Be careful with the left grip when removing to avoid chipping it near the safety lever.

I assume that the springs are in good working order,of course someone may have replaced the springs and grips.If the springs have lost their resiliency,the gun may have been in a fire.

The grips are original and the finnish looks normal underneath. Springs are good. I see no indication of fire, or excessive heat. There is no bluing inside the reciever or frame. I just dont know what to think. I do appreciate all the replies.

I agree that the gun should be packed off to Thor for righteous restoration of it's original finish... It is is sad shape and the history is not really known. The lack of a matching takedown lever makes it the perfect candidate. If it were mine, it would already be in the box and I would be addressing the FEDEX label...

While you are at it... pack the grips off to Hugh Clark for his magic as well.

A guy can dream can't he? :)

John, I had thought of sending it to Thor, but I didnt want to ruin any collector value. I do have the original take down lever, but it is dammaged. It could propably be repaired by the right person. From what I have learned so far, it sounds like this is indeed a good candidate for restoration, and I would love to shoot the hell out of it. Thanks again all for the advise.

Packet,
I did not mean to suggest that your pistol had been in a fire; I was alluding to the criminal practice of using a massive conflagration to cover up a number of lesser or greater crimes.
Your gun, IMHO, has been chemically cooked. Assuming all the original parts are present, (And I would be very skeptical on that) it may be a good candidate for restoration. Having said that, I must ask why one would spend the time and money to do so. There are lots of Artys out there at fairly reasonable prices if you want a collector piece; if that is not your wish, use the one you have for a shooter and enjoy it.
Tom A.

Tom, I am quite certain that all parts are matched and original. When you refer to "chemically cooked" what exactly do you mean? I can see that one might reblue the gun if the original finnish were all but gone. Do you think someone tried to rust blue it and botched the job? I have seen bad cold/hot bluing, but this doesnt look like it. As for shooting this one and finding another collectible, I have to agree with you. While Thor's work is splendid, it is expensive. Thanks again for the advise.

By chemically cooked, I mean that someone has applied one of the "patina restoration" solutions to the surface of the gun. These compounds, usually (and I am no chemist) are a dilute mix of an acid and some mineral compounds for buffering and color, and when applied lightly and removed quickly from a re-blued gun will give it just the "right" look to the uninitiated. It also frustrates the "Semichrome" test as there is iron oxide present.

The key to spotting these boosted pieces is that the discoloration and "patina" appear more like case hardening and the surface steel has microscopic etching. Actually, it is pretty crude and easy to spot in person...it just don't look right.

Tom A.

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger-Click HERE

Why would one restore this Luger? All you have to do is look at the photo that Thor just posted a link for to have a good enough reason... Another Luger that will transcend this generation to a new generation of Luger appreciators...

You can certainly use your limited resources (mine are limited too) toward Collecting another "unshootable" but collectable Artillery Luger if you like... but as expensive as fine work like Thor's restoration magic is, it is not as expensive as buying a "collectable" Artillery Luger that doesn't need refinishing and that you can't shoot.

Just my http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/2cents.jpg

If you have Thor work on it, I believe he still gives you a supply of them blue pencils to shoot like the one in the picture. :D Just messing with you Thor.

It really would be worth it to have him do the work if you can. I got to see the one photographed in person and it was really sweet.
My 0.02.

The difference in a "reblue" of a favorite well used gun (like my 1974 W.German import PP) and a complete "restoration" of a historically significant firearm is like comparing a paint job by MAACO ($175) on a 86 Buick to a frame up restoration of a 58 Corvette. You can't make comparisons. I have very few "keepers". Guns are like dogs, they come and they go. My Thor restored 1918 Erfurt is a keeper. And if you're like me you will just spend that money on another gun anyway. Go for it :D

rk

Thor, you just had to show me that picture, didnt you? That is the most beautiful artillery I have ever seen. Ok, Im hooked. When should I send it to you?

Good work Thor!!
Well done.
Ciao

That is not fair Mauro. You shouldnt encourage him that way.

shouldnt encourage him to do nice work!!? :D
sorry pacet but it just sounded wierd.

:)sverre

Packet & Mauro, send me your email address to Thor340@aol.com (and anybody else that wants it) and I will send you a better version of that picture via email. Thanks to all for the nice compliments! Thor

Didnt mean for it to sound that way. Its a, I say its a joke son. Sound wisdom from Foghorn Leghorn. I hope Thor never stops doing his magic. I have the highest respect for his work.