Lange 08s
 

I read thru this kinda fast, didn't appear to be any new info, great photos though.

http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium....tt-lange08.htm

rk

Interesting. I wasn't aware the LP08 was issued to pilots, or am I reading it incorrectly?

Ron,
Give the man " **** ", You read OK! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
&gt;
Babel Fish Translation Help

In English:

The long pistol 08 history ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before exactly 90 years, to 03.06.1913, emperor Wilhelm II ordered. "on me lecture held approve I to me vorlegegte samples of a selbstladepistole with shoulder piece under the designation" long pistol 08 ". In addition of my Ordre from 22 August 1908 I determine that the field artillery and the fliers are armed in accordance with condition of the available means with the long pistol 08. In addition it can find in the equipment of the fortresses admission. The war Ministry has the further to arrange Berlin, 3 June 1913. William " The Kanoniere of the field artillery was armed 1907 with the gun 83. In troop tests should be clarified, which kind of weapon should replace the gun in the future. Since the weapon was meant anyway only for self-defense and for the defense of surprising attacks, one believed, on the line (although short) of a rifle verichten to be able, lehte therefore the rifle 91 and the carbine 98 as too long and during the cannon operation hinderlich off and demanded against it the armament with the pistol 08, but with a longer run and a setable shoulder piece. End of 1911 in the rifle test commission to Spandau Ruhleben attempts with pistols 08 with extended run and notice shank were therefore taken up, which were locked up to the summer of the yearly 1913. In particular the construction of the visor required much time. Together of George the Luger and the rifle test commission developed resembles technically the pistol 08, has however 20 cm a long run and one to 800m handing adjustable Visierung on the run. To the weapon belonged a notice board, which should make the use for the long pistol possible 08 as carbine replacement. On the notice board the pistol bag was fastened. The other equipment is as with the pistol 08, thus also with two number-same magazines. It was intended to arm from 1914 on in one period of 5 years dieKanoniere of the field artillery with the long pistol 08. The first pistols arrived briefly before beginning of the First World War into the hands of the soldiers, the mass production started however only after beginning of war. In the First World War the weapon became with the field artillery (briefly for beginning of war urgently for carbines required!), with the fliers (after beginning of war their airplanes with machine guns armed briefly), mainly however at the infantry, at storm companies and in hunter battalions uses. Starting from 1916/17 for the weapon also a 32-Schuss-Trommelmagazin was used, which worked in particular with the defense of opposing assaults well. In evaluation of the experiences won here 1918 the first genuine submachine gun was then designed (MP 18 I). Until the end of the twenties the long pistol became 08? also at the police led, with the land hunters. Still also in the Second World War the weapon (in small number of items) was in the use. The weapon was manufactured only from 1913 to the end of the First World War. The mass on long pistols 08 was manufactured with DWM, pistols from Erfurt production is relatively rare. Exact data concerning production are not available, according to reliable estimations between 190.000 and 200.000 long pistols 08 were manufactured.
Theres more than this if you care to copy and paste it in "150 Word Gobbles". <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
ViggoG

Hi Randall,
you are right while saying that there is nothing new in this article, though it is a nice summarized information about the Lange Pistole 08.
In case you or our friends are interested in the contents I can translate the same into English.
Anyhow for your information, the individual chapters are as follows:

1.History (already translated by Viggo)
2.Technique
3.Operating, Disassembly & Assembly
4.Markings and Proofs
5.Ammution
6.Selected Literature
Hope I could help you
regards from Germany
Peter

What would be interesring is the book used as a background, The title would be "The Attack",
War Experiences of a Front Line Officer", can't make out the rest of it though.

rk

"The Attack",
War Experiences of a Front Line Officer" ??????

Randall,
do you refer to a title mentioned in the literature list of the article about the LP08 or from somewhere else?
Peter

Herr Langenbach,
Roadkill is referring to the title of one of the books that the LP08 is lying on in the picture.

Mr. Wood, Sir,
now I've got it.
This brochure has been issued by theÃ?Â*Ã?Â*Chief of Command of the general staff of the field army on 15th of Sept. 1917 and is meant only for official use in the army and it should not be disclosed.
It is written by one Hauptmann {captain}von Brandia {his family name}of the Infantry Regiment No. 24. It is most probably a reprint like the green one which lying underneath and may not by available in the market.
Anyway I will try to find out whether a copy can by organized somehow in case somebody is interested.

By the way please consider my form of address as a joke.
Please call me Peter instead of Mr. Langenbach if you don't mind.
regards
Peter

Peter,
I am happy to do so, and please just call me Ron. Es freut mich sehr Sie kennenzulernen. Collecting makes good friends very quickly, and makes it easy to go from "Sie" to "Du".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by H.P.Langenbach:
<strong>Hi Randall,
you are right while saying that there is nothing new in this article, though it is a nice summarized information about the Lange Pistole 08.
In case you or our friends are interested in the contents I can translate the same into English.
Anyhow for your information, the individual chapters are as follows:

1.History (already translated by Viggo)
2.Technique
3.Operating, Disassembly & Assembly
4.Markings and Proofs
5.Ammution
6.Selected Literature
Hope I could help you
regards from Germany
Peter</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Mr. Langenbach:

Re: Lange Pistole 08

I would be very interested in a translation of the chapter on ammunition. Could you send me such?

Bob

Thanks Ron,
your German is astonishing, didn't expect that from somebody hailing from El Paso,Texas. Congratulations.
I'm not a hard core collector, only an active sports shooter hanging on the shooting range twice/trice a week. Mostly black powder muzzle loading rifles, pistols and revolvers but all are replicas.
Being a mechanical engineer from profession, since years I'm fascinated from the accuracy, make and mechanical function of the Lugers and by chance some weeks back I've got a good offer for an artillery as you call it. Due to the fact that the gun laws of Germany are very restrict, it took some time to get the permission for procurement. In the mean time I found your impressive forum and was very much impressed by the experience of the members regarding this weapon.
So it is always a great pleasure for me to read the comments and to share my knowledge up to some extend.
regards
Peter

Hi Bob,
below please fing my translation of the requested chapter.

5.Ammunition

The Pistol is designed for the "pistol cartridge 08" (the exact military denotation of the amo), that in a civilian way is known also as "9 mm Luger" or "9 mm Parabellum". The cartridge was developed in 1903 according to the demands of the rifle board of examiners. The cartridge is based on the 7,65mm Parabellum in this case.
Initially a truncated cone projectile of 8 grams weight was set. One expected a higher stopping-force of this projectile form. After 1916 the truncated cone projectile was replaced by the today usual round head projectile.
The truncated cone projectile of 8 grams weight reached an initial velocity of about 320 m/s from the pistol 08, from the Long pistol 08 insignificantly more.
The cartridge found a worldwide circulation after 1945 and is offered today by almost every ammunition manufacturer.

Measurement of the Case
Case length 17,2 mm
Rim diameter 9,1 mm
Diameter at the rim 8,55 mm
Diameter at the case mouth 8,52 mm
max. projectile diameter 7,85 mm
max. gas pressure 1.600 bar


I guess their is nothing realy new or am I wrong?
regards
Peter

I note that the quoted velocity of 320 meters per second is 1050 feet per second or what an earlier poster said the original cartridge developed. Datig's book shows a velocity of 1250 FPS which apparently is not correct.... or is from a later cartridge.

The truncated cone was seen by the Allies as a "Dum-Dum" bullet and this was one of the reasons the german Military was anxious about it's use. Jerry Burney

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair:
<strong>The truncated cone was seen by the Allies as a "Dum-Dum" bullet and this was one of the reasons the german Military was anxious about it's use. Jerry Burney</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Jerry:

Truncated cone bullets are designed to tip upon contact with a solid object. This was, and still is, a fantastic man stopping design!!

Let's see, the British lightened their .303 bullets in the frontal area with aluminum so that they would tip upon contact. That surely would have made a hell of a mess!!

Our own 5.56 M-16 round was made to do the same thing by a rifling twist that would not stabilize it.

It seems that the bullet un-stabilization trick is an old one, and that everyone has used it.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Doubs:
<strong>I note that the quoted velocity of 320 meters per second is 1050 feet per second or what an earlier poster said the original cartridge developed. Datig's book shows a velocity of 1250 FPS which apparently is not correct.... or is from a later cartridge.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Doubs:

You got my interest, a week or so ago, with this question. Since them, I've checked the 1932 Stoeger Catalogue reprint that I have.

The Winchester 9mm Luger was sited at 1040 fps and the DWM Commercial Import at 1010 fps (with 125 and 123 gr. bullets, respectfully, 4 inch barrel).

Also, I checked a reprint of the official U.S. Army analysis of WWII German Infantry Weapons. It sites 1050 fps for the Luger.

I don't know where Datig came up with 1250 fps, but I'll still keep looking for clues.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by H.P.Langenbach:
<strong>Hi Bob,
below please fing my translation of the requested chapter.

5.Ammunition

The Pistol is designed for the "pistol cartridge 08" (the exact military denotation of the amo), that in a civilian way is known also as "9 mm Luger" or "9 mm Parabellum".

Measurement of the Case
Case length 17,2 mm
Rim diameter 9,1 mm ?
Diameter at the rim 8,55 mm
Diameter at the case mouth 8,52 mm
max. projectile diameter 7,85 mm ?
max. gas pressure 1.600 bar


I guess their is nothing realy new or am I wrong?
regards
Peter</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Peter:

Es freut mich auch!!

Vielen Dank, aber Randdurchmesser und Geschossdurchmesser sehen nich richtig aus.

Bob

P.S. Your English is fantastic!! Are you planning on shooting your Luger?

Sieger, What you say is undoubtably true. I spent two years in Vietnam and saw some horrific wounds caused by the 223 Remington cartridge. The light bullet coupled with great speed caused strange things to happen when it hit bone.

I do not know the other reasons the German authorities had for changing the truncated cone bullet. Jerry Burney

All,
would the velocity of an LP-08 differ from a 4 inch barreled Luger? Also, in ViggoG's translation, there was mention of "land hunters". What were "land hunters"?
Big Norm

"Land hunters" is the Babel Fish literal translation of "Landj�¤gern", which I believe is what the rural constabulary was called.

Hi Bob,
thanks for the reply. I�´m not an expert in ammo, so I�´m not able to verify the figures given in the table. Maybe somebody more experienced can provide detailed info.
Yes, I try to bring back the accuracy to the gun by testing different 9mm ammo. Hope soon I will be able to hit the bulls eye.
regards
Peter

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>"Land hunters" is the Babel Fish literal translation of "Landj�¤gern", which I believe is what the rural constabulary was called.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ron
again you are right.
The rural constabulary was called Landj�¤ger from 1919 till 1934 when they became part of Himmlers police troops.
regards
Peter

To all english-speaking members:

I am again wondering about the good German, some people can speak here!! Gongrats, I would wish my English would be as half as good!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by H.P.Langenbach:
<strong>Hi Bob,
thanks for the reply. I�´m not an expert in ammo, so I�´m not able to verify the figures given in the table. Maybe somebody more experienced can provide detailed info.
Yes, I try to bring back the accuracy to the gun by testing different 9mm ammo. Hope soon I will be able to hit the bulls eye.
regards
Peter</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Peter:

Modern ammo is not designed to function properly in a P-08. You will experience poor function and probably poor accuracy with it. If you shoot loads that are too hot, you may even experience damage to the pistol.

If you want perfection of operation and top accuracy, you must load your own to the original specifications. I can help you here. It's really quite easy, once you catch on to the process.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by karmast:
<strong>To all english-speaking members:

I am again wondering about the good German, some people can speak here!! Gongrats, I would wish my English would be as half as good!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Herr Karmast:

Hier gibt es viele gebildete Leute, dass viele Fremdsprachen sprechen koennen!

Bob

Wasn't the cone shaped bullet phased out with the introduction of the Trommelmagazin or the MP18? I believe I had heard it was due to high capacity feeding problems.

Big Norm, the velocity from an Artillery Luger would show an increase over the standard 100mm (4 inch) barrel. I don't recall the specific velocity but I it to be something over 1100 FPS. The extra length of the Artillery barrel would allow for more complete burning of the powder and better utilization of the pressures.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by George Anderson:
<strong>Wasn't the cone shaped bullet phased out with the introduction of the Trommelmagazin or the MP18? I believe I had heard it was due to high capacity feeding problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">It's always been my understanding that it was Allied objections to the bullet design that caused the change from the truncated cone bullet to the round nose design. The Allies claimed that the blunt nose of the TC bullet caused unnecessary damage and suffering....... IOW, it was inhumane. The change took place, I believe, in 1916 so the Trommelmagazin doesn't seem to have been a factor.

Doubs, I believe the T-mag was adopted in 1916 but didn't hit the street (front) until 1917.

Hello guys,
very interesting site. I will contact in the next days the â??Kuratoriums zur F�¶rderung historischer Waffensammlungenâ?� in order to have some other information. May be we can have an interesting cooperation with Lp08 expert that builds the site (I guess Mr. Finze).

Ron, concerning the use of LP08 by the German war aircraft during WWI you can read at page 23 of my book (last caption of the page):

â??On the right below, before the popular use of machine-guns on German war aircraft, the Air force used the LP08 for various attacks. As luck would have it, the LP08 with its holster-stock were very effective. A picture â?¦â?�

In the note number 10, page 70, I describes some tests performed by Air Force. In particular the air force made two kind of tests: one from an aircraft against a test target with a size of 8 m. Another one to test the effectiveness against aircraft engine, from a distance of 100m.

The best picture available of a pilot that is firing from his aircraft with a LP08 + stock is available on the Gortz book (Die Pistole 08) where are also available a lot of information about LP08 trials.

Ciao

Mauro

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by George Anderson:
<strong>Doubs, I believe the T-mag was adopted in 1916 but didn't hit the street (front) until 1917.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">George, if you have any additional information on this I'd be interested in hearing it. If the T-Mag gave problems with the TC bullets, it was likely in the drum portion as the part that fit the magazine well in the Luger should have been the same as a standard mag. At least it seems reasonable to think so. I'd not heard of this before in reference to the TC cartridges.
:)

Doubs and George,
as far as I know the TC bullets was modified during 1916 for two main reasons: the Allied propaganda against the TC-bullet because of not conforming with AIA Treaty and also for TM08 feeding problems.
The TM08 was adopted for the LP08 during the 1917 but was already employed for the Mondragon starting from 1915. So it was possible for the Kriegsministerium engineers to know problems related to TM08 feeding with TC bullet before 1916. If you have my book, this problem has been analysed at page 49 and 63.

Ciao

Mauro

Mauro, thank you for some excellent information. I was aware of the Allied objections but not aware of the TM08 feeding problems until George called it to my attention. No matter how much we know about Lugers, there's always something new to keep our interest.

Peter, welcome to the forum, :)

Ed

Mauro,
Thank you for pointing out the caption that I missed on page 23. I need to read more carefully!

I looked through my copy of G�¶rtz's "Die Pistole 08" and could not find the picture of the pilot firing a LP08 from an aircraft. Perhaps I have a different edition (1991)? While looking through the book I found a reference to the Pistole 08 being issued to NCOs and ground personnel of "Luftschiffer" and "Fliegertruppen", but no mention of officers or aircrews. In your research have you found that the LP08 was an item of issue to aircraft pilots or crews, or was it a weapon of "opportunity" that was employed when they could obtain them?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>I looked through my copy of G�¶rtz's "Die Pistole 08" and could not find the picture of the pilot firing a LP08 from an aircraft. Perhaps I have a different edition (1991)? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have the 2000-edition, here you can find the pic on page 153.
A pilot is possing in an "Aviatik"-plane. It is a historic propaganda pic..

Matthias,
Thank you. My edition does not have that picture, so I guess I will need to buy a newer one to see if there is any other information I am missing.

Ron,
at the beginning of WWI the aircrafts were not armed. The aircrafts were piloted by Cavalry Officers to observe the enemy positions. The aim of this first mission was â??to observeâ?� and not fight. In this context both the pilot and the observer were armed with carbines and, when the LP08 was available, with LP08. When necessary the pilot or the observer were able to fire against soldiers or other aircrafts. The LP08 and the carbines were no longer used as soon as it was possible firing with machine-gun installed on the plane.

Ciao

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>Matthias,
Thank you. My edition does not have that picture, so I guess I will need to buy a newer one to see if there is any other information I am missing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You are welcome! I heard that the newer edition has some additional informations in it, but I can't verify it, because I don't have the older edition.

Thank you Mauro, always a pleasure to hear from you and learn something new. I was not aware that the early pilots were drawn from the Cavalry. I guess that with the advent of aircraft into warfare, the pilots had to come from somewhere, and I am sure those young daredevils were happy to swap a horse for an airplane!