PX HK...?
 

Claims to be a PX HK luger :

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=21184453

Wonder who "jd08" is, that is bidding on this piece...??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Shhhh... Don't tell anyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I bid - but have a few questions into the seller.. I'm not sure I'll continue - yet...

Also - it's NOT a PX Luger. Rather, a "parts gun" that "could be correct", depending on a how the answers come back....????

Now - don't tell anyone.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> !!!!

Hard to tell from the photos, but arn't the holes inside the toggles supposed to have a slight bevel on Kreiggies??

r

BTW, Good Luck John D.!!!

Hey Double O..!!

Great eye..!!!! But - unfortunately...

Not necessarily.... The "parts" guns were made from spares on hand in the factory - which included "parts" from several manufacturers. It's the "combination" of parts that's one of the keys to being "correct". For example - it would be "correct" to find a blank Mauser toggle link - but "improper" to find a "serialized" DWM link/ears matched to a matched "toggle train" - mounted on a "matched" cannon....

HK post war parts guns are a very interesting variation - but, folks need to beware that there are a lot of fakes out there, too.....

Someday - I'll try to put together a post that describes what to look for - and look out for in this set of HKs - if there is enough interest....?

In the meantime - thanks for the luck in this auction! I'm interested to see "what it is" - so I'm still waiting for some more info...

Best to you!!!

John

John D,
Of course, the photos may lend something that is not accurate, but seems to me that the finish on this weapon is almost a matt grey, Like it was left nearly totally in the white.
Can you help us out here?

Ronnie

Hey Ronnie...!

Another great question!! OK......

The PX HK Lugers were polished and blued with some care, but this appears initially as a "parts" HK, which is a bit different....

What you'll find is that many parts HKs have a "hodge-podge" of finishes. Some parts may be a high polish - deep blue, while other parts are "in the white". For example - there are HK post war parts Lugers that have a frame "in the white" and small parts blued - and visa-versa....

As well - some of the parts HKs are all the same tone of blue, and you'll see the frame or cannon are over buffed so that the entire "blue" matched....

In the example that is on auction - it looks like it's a "parts" HK where the parts were pulled "as is" - rather then the entire Luger buffed/reblued - which gives it its mis-matched finish on the frame as compared to the small parts (which do not match, either)...

Hope this helps!

John

John D.
- Trust you noticed the damaged L/Hand toggle knob and missing (deep set?) link retainer pin. Wonder if the pistol was dropped?
- Noticed in the last pic a dark blue retainer pin for the takedown lever. This possibly a later aftermarket replacement as I thought these pins were originally in the white during wartime assembly.
- Suspect your eagle eye has already caught these (& other?) anomolies; but, I thought I'd mention them just-in-case.
- Neat possibility. Wonder if P.A.T. or Oscar(R.Gibson, TKP, Pgs. 119, 234-237) were standing in line with ole Hargus!!
Respectfully,
Bob

Hey Bob..!

Sorry about the delayed reply - seems that you were posting while I was sleeping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Remember, the parts guns were comprised of spares at the factory, and among those "spares" were parts that were "rejected" for numerous reasons. I caught the mal-formed toggle ears when I first saw the pictures - and frankly - it's one of the several reasons that initially lead me to believe it's correct. As for the takedown and pin - yep - great eye! Both the pin and the lever itself are suspect, so I requested close-ups of both.. There is something about the checkered pad on the lever that caught me the wrong way - but, it's only shown in one photo, so it's tough to tell.??? Same with the trigger toe..?

As for Oscar and P.A.T. being in line with 'ole Hargus.... Sheeessshhh - I wish these Lugers could talk..!!

Best to you!

John

John,
Many thanks for your indulgence, I appreciate your patience with this newbie. Very educational, and hope that you will do the article you averred to at some future date.

Ronnie

Well, just to bring closure to this thread (I'll start a new on later)....

This Krieg is now on it's way back here. Before I go into detail on this piece in the next thread later this week (if I have the chance) - I will tell you that the seller "Jim El Cajon" is excellent. All my questions were answered, and I'm cautiously optimistic this will turn out as an authentic Post War GI Parts Krieg for a few reasons.

Also - as a side note.....

Based on some research I've done (I know Gibson stated the 11th Armoured Division took Suhl) - but a "Division" is pretty damned "big". So, over the years in researching which Battalions and specific Combat Commands entered Suhl (and what resistance was like, who was first in, which Battalions stayed on - and which Battalions were forwarded to Meiningen, Sonneberg and Hildburghausen with CC A & CC B - and which went with CC R as they moved into Zella-Mehlis, etc.). That's important when trying to verify bring back papers and/or engravings, as in this case....

To that point, before making a deal on the HK - I believe I found the enlistment records of the correct "Hargus R. Tyler". I'm waiting for the National Archives to process my request (I should have those tomorrow) - but, at first pass - I believe I found him... His serial number was: 34 804 761.

Best to all,

John

Can't wait to hear the story!!!

Let-er-rip John D.!! <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

r

Geez, I don't know if I should say something about a Luger that I have or just keep my stupidity to myself. A while back, I picked up 30 cal luger that looked pretty nice. It have no serial numbers on it, anywhere. Except for some engraving on it, a hooded front sight, import markings on the chamber and some fancy, hand carved wood grips, it is a pretty nice gun. The price was right, it had a nice Russian extractor and an original, numbered, wood bottom mag so I bought it.

Now I am wondering. On the Luger in question in this post, with the exception of a soldiers engraving on the side and the grips, what made anyone think that this was a Krieghoff? I hope that I am not coming across as challenging Johns judgement. But the grips could be repros. The solder could have pickd it up anywhere. John admits that the parts could have come out of a bin composed of parts from different Lugers. How many extraneous parts must a Luger have before its not a Krieghoff? What makes this gun worth a thousand bucks?

I am worried about posting this message. I could look pretty darn stupid given my respect for John and his knowledge. But since I have a Luger with no part numbers on it, my curiosity has been aroused.

When I saw this gun up for auction, I thought, 'thats a nice shooter'. But not a thousand dollar shooter. How could the guy possibly call it a Krieghoff?
Big Norm

Hey Big Norm..!

Those are definitely NOT silly questions! Can you hold those until I start a new thread and answer some? Just a pre-cursor though "post war" Krieghoff's are highly desirable - PX HKs, GI "parts guns", HK staff assembled for specific GIs are the 3 major post war variations (Gibson note's 2).

I will tell you some dealers, when they are authenticated - charge well over $3-$4K. There was also a post-war HK PX RIG that fetched well over $6500 - and in fact, the PX HKs were assembled from spares and assisted by production of "new" parts from local metal workers where no spares existed.

As well - in the HK post-war variation - folks can also lose their proverbial "shirt"...

And oh - I'd never suggest using an HK post-war Luger as a shooter. Especially some of the GI assembled firearms.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Best to you,

John

Hey John D.,

In speaking with the seller, were you able to find out how he knew what he had ? Is he HK connected...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hey Pete,

I believe all his information came from the 2003 Standard Catalog of Firearms, and I also believe he is general gun dealer. Since I don't have a copy of that catalog, I'm not sure how they do the descriptions? It sounds like, based on his notes and listing - that they may lump all Post-wars into a "PX" category - where they have published the average market price of $3500 for that post-war variation.

However, for all that - he is a pleasure to deal with - speedy replies and well written notes (as oppossed to some "sellers" who provide cryptic answers, vague responses and send a note like it's an "imposition" to answer anything).

When this piece arrives and I have a chance to go through it and check it over - I'll try to post some further information. My problem is, though - when I start writing - I sort of do a "core dump" about "anything you always wanted to know about HKs - and never thought to ask".. :) So it takes a while for me to do a "review" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Best to you!

John

"Core Dump"!! Careful guy, you are showing your age. I doubt that many younger folks are even aware that there was such a thing as core memory.

.. .. Or even that memory originally consisted of ferite cores?

:confused:
Regards,
Fritz.

...Or that those cores lost their "state" when power was removed...

yeah, yeah, the first "computers" (read that as "cryptographic equipment") that this old-timer worked on used core-memory and vacuum tube amplified driver pulses that used power sources that would curl your toes if it touched you when you weren't looking... seems like a hundred years ago to me. There is more computing power in my three year old cell phone than you could fit in the average house back then... and the phone will run for two days on a battery not much larger than a business card instead of requiring an armored truck to pick up your electricity bill payment... :D Those weren't the good ole' days... these are!

Holleee smokes!!!! You guys are making feel REALLY old - as I know what you are talking about!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

BTW: Did you ever notice the following correlation???

The younger folks on the Forum look for the '70 Mausers for their collection? (made in the '70s - so they were probably born in the 80s...);

As for me - I was born in the 50s - and I collect Lugers from the '40s...

Ron - well - "If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction.."....

Makes you wonder - doesn't it???

:D

Now - if I can only remember what the point was I was trying to make??? :(

<img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

Core Dump!? Is that something new? First, color television, and now this...!

"Core Dump"!!!! Gosh I remember knowing how to read those things on an IBM-360 using my old green card. That was before 'Snap Dumps' which made things easier.I was born in 1940. I guess that is why I like the pre-1918 Lugers like Ron Wood does.

John, I am truely sorry if I gave any impression of hostility in my post. Frustration...Yes. Hostility ...no. The soldiers name engraved on the side of you Luger definately does give the gun some character and a taste of history.

I bought my gun thinking it looked cool. I just thought that it was an armorers 'put together'. But then there was the Russian extractor on it. That has always bothered me. I don't think that a German armorer would have a Russian extractor in his little box of tricks.Your postings has me wondering even more about what I have. I still have to figure out it I have a 30 cal or a 9mm. Except for the Russian extractor markings and the GESICHERT on the read safety, there are no markings on it.

Just to show you my sincere repentance, I begrudgingly will offer to sell it to you for $5,000. A bargain at half the price.
Big Norm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
<strong>...John, I am truely sorry if I gave any impression of hostility in my post. Frustration...Yes. Hostility ...no....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hey Big Norm..!

No apology necessary. Actually - when I read your first post, I certainly wasn't offended - PROMISE..!!! Like a many folks - understanding Post-War is somewhat difficult. Honestly? They are also rejected by several Krieg Collectors as not being 'proper'. I look at them differently. Since they came from the factory, which was subsequently reduced to rubble - they are the last output of Lugers from Krieghoff. As well - given the 3 variations, 2 of those can be tied back (if authenticated) to GIs who fought hard for that right to possess them.

When I write my review on this, it's also most likely I'll share some of the details not in Gibson - about when/how/who actually constructed these, who was in Suhl, who was in the factory, and how the variations came into "being" - sort of a glimpse into history.

Honestly, it's taken a lot of research to potentially present all this - I believe - for the first time, so I hope folks enjoy it. And yes - it will be a "core dump" of information from numerous sources, both public and private. However - it will take some time to prepare for this presentation, as it includes notes scattered about on my end....

As for a correct HK with a GIs name on the side - you'll see why I'll put forward that it's the second variation of the Post-war. Again - any piece will have to be verified, though....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
<strong>......Just to show you my sincere repentance, I begrudgingly will offer to sell it to you for $5,000. A bargain at half the price....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

You really are incorrigible..!!! :)

(Hmmm - what'cha got??!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )

Best to ya!!!

John D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">When this piece arrives and I have a chance to go through it and check it over - I'll try to post some further information. ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So, new buyer, new home? :D ey Johnny?

:D

Ed

Yep.. I can't wait!!!! :D

It's on it's way "home".. Wonder how the other HKs will react to it??? Hmmm - I should introduce them slowly - sort of like guppies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Heh!!!

Best to you Ed..!!!

John D.

Core Dump is still present day computer speak.

The Linux box I am using now will optionally create core.* files when a program crashes.

These can be loaded into the debugger to find out what happened.

This is a legacy aspect of Unix/Linux.
Although it would not suprize me that there is someone out there who has a working vintage core memory connected to a Linux PC!

John, the gun looks like the real deal to me, The engraving appears to be the clincher. (FWIW!), Good luck with your new aquisition.

Just as a quick update....

This HK is back here, but before I do the "core dump" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> - I'm still looking for Hargus' military records to arrive... What I do know so far is that:

His Serial # was: 34 804 761
Born in Kentucky, 1923
At time of enlistment, he lived in Alabama, County of Talladega and enlisted at: FT McClellan on: 5/01/1943
Education: graduated - 4 Years of High School and he was Married at the time of enlistment. In November 1946, he and his wife had their first child, a Daughter.

However, for all that info I've been able to gather - I still don't have the documents to show which unit he was attached to in the 11th (I do have some initial data, but nothing conclusive - yet). After contacting 3 different US Archives and cutting some paperwork - I'm still looking and waiting. When I have a few more answers- I'll update this thread and work through this PostWar HK for others...

Thanks for your patience!

John