Death Head
 

Bought a 1912 dated Erfurt with a death head stamped above the date. Ser # is 2398a and it has the military stamps. How can I tell if its a fake. The barrel and frame appear to be more polished than the toggle assm. and extractor. It also has red 9 stamped into the grips?

Gut reaction? It's is a fake. Pictures would help a great deal. There are some "death's head" Imperial lugers that most accept as vintage marked. There is no consensus as to who used them. These lugers are late war; 1917/1918. The fact that the pistol appears to be refinshed and the "Red Nines" don't help. Just my opinion. Best to avoid these "exotic" items.

Where did you pick it up?

Regards

aaa
I agree with Garfield concerning your 1912 Deaths Head. Unfortunatley Klaus Schad,
the recognized world expert on the deaths head lugers,no longer posts on this forum.
Jan

Hello Mark (aka AAA),

If you have a digital camera or have a friend that can help you out, it might be nice to post some jpeg photos here on the Forum.

It would be nice to give the experts here on our Forum a chance to "see" your luger before it is totally concluded to be a "fake".

As with many other lugers, especially the somewhat more rare variations; even the experts disagree from time to time... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Excuse me, Pete:

I don't think anyone responding, to date, has concluded anything. You may note, that I suggested that pictures would be helpful.

Garfield; I would say your gut reaction that it was a fake would be considered a conclusion.
Lonnie

Garfield,

I think the opening sentence of your post read as " Gut reaction. It's is a fake"...

I agree with all; photos would be nice before the word "fake" is thrown out there...

Well, sorry, however, the owner of the pistol initially asked how he could tell if it was a fake. I told him what my gut reaction(read that as, my initial reaction) was based on what he had posted and why. If that is a conclusion, by your standards, so be it. It is also my opinion, which I have a right to express when asked to do so.

Thank you all for your input. I will take up the sugestion to post pics of the gun. I will also add more details about the gun. Any way to contact the Death Head expert?. I would like his input also. Im new to collecting lugers and don't know which variations I want to stick with, but would consider any all matching rigs if any one has one for sale.

Thanx agin!!

Klaus left the forum after a bunch of folks jumped on him for saying a KNOWN fake was a fake.

Too bad!

He is a world famous expert on this stuff. We lost a great source of data and information.

Orv Reichert

No Orv, he was jumped on for being rude and not backing up anything he had to say to show us that the gun was a "known" fake.

He might be famous for his knowledge to some, but that was his first exposure to many on the forum and so how would we know he was a knowledgeable guy?


(this is in a general sense and not directed at you Orv)

You might know it is a truth, but I won't accept it as truth just because you say it is, show me some research, some facts and then I will believe it is the truth.

Ed
I have known Orv for almost 20 years. He has earned a reputation as a highly knowledgeable collector and is highly respected by his pears.
The same can be said for Klaus Schad. (The gold plated Luger he discussed had already earned the name of fake in both German and American publications).

The word of both these collectors has great credibility and merit. In my opinion, its asking a lot of such experts to reprove something thatâ??s already been published and proven. Perhaps you should look up these articles and occasionally find out whatâ??s going on in the collecting world beyond this Forum. Its everybodys loss when such experts leave this forum.
Jan

Jan,

I havenâ??t known Orv Reichert nearly as long as you have, but I will say that every time we have conversed via phone or email, he has been an absolute gentleman. While he is a well-known authority in his field, he is quick to admit he doesnâ??t have all the answers. He never has said â??these are the facts, donâ??t ask me for proofâ?�. Instead, he will try to provide all the information that leads him to a conclusion, sometimes in summary, but at least itâ??s data.

Now having said that, just because an authority writes something, doesnâ??t make it so. I will give you an example. In your book â??Third Reich Lugersâ?�, on page 65, you state the serial range for a 1939, Code 42 is 200r-8250z. You donâ??t say itâ??s about, you say it IS. Well, sir, I have a perfectly good 1939, Code 42 with a serial number of 5433q. This serial number is over 5000 pistols below your â??statedâ?� minimum. This is NOT a criticism, but just to point out that your book was written about 15 years ago, and at that time I believe your data showed you the low side was 200r, but that doesnâ??t make it so.

I donâ??t know Klaus Schad, but I will tell you that my impression of him is, well, something that I will not write. To say garish would be too kind. His actions were not in the spirit of trying to help the forum members understand the problem. If it was his choice to leave the forum, so be it, whether he is an authority or not. He still puts his pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us!
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Frank,
In all fairness to Jan Still, you should read the information on page 1 entitled "SERIAL NUMBER DATA TABLES" before you skip to page 65.

Fellow Forum Members,

It would seem that there are several dynamic forces in play here.

First of all, the primary membership of the forum is a mixed bag vis-a-vis knowledge and experience. Logically following on this premise is that the membership is somewhat diverse (in the good, non Klinton sence of the word) and thirdly, there are some folks with exceptionally thin skins, regardless of their depth of knowledge. Egos are often fragile and for some, especially those who have devoted 40-50 years of their lives in research and SHARING the results of that research, perhaps that ego is justified.

I know that when Allan Greenspan says "the economy is sound", no one asks him to prove it; his mastery of the material is such that his view, while perhaps short of evidentary proof, certainly qualifies as "Expert opinion".

Gents and ladies, we do have some bona fide experts on this forum. We also have some neophytes, many in between and some misinformed few who believe that the maximus corpus of Luger knowledge resides here. It simply ain't so.

I would suggest that when a recognized authority and published author, who happens to NOT be a dealer opines, perhaps he should be given some respect as he is providing "expert opinion".

If his expert opinion ruffles some feathers, well, thats the way it goes.
My zwei pfennig,
Tom A.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

I don't believe anyone has questioned the expertise aspect of the comments. It makes absolutely no sense to be rude, even if you have 40 or 50 years of research behind you. Nuff Said!!

Tom A:

My turn to say, "AMEN, AMEN"!

And to you Frank, your comment regarding your opinion of Klaus Shad makes about as much sense as if you would say, "That Tiger Woods may shoot a good game of golf, but he puts his pants on one leg at a time".

Garfield,
Does Tiger really jump into his pants?

Frank's point was, even though Klaus is regarded as a "Luger Expert", that don't mean he is right 100% of the time, and it don't mean he is better or smarter than anybody else!

My Two Pennies!
Brandon...

[quote]Unfortunatley Klaus Schad,
the recognized world expert on the deaths head lugers,no longer posts on this forum.
<hr></blockquote>

Jan,

Can Klaus Schad be persuaded to rejoin us in the forum? His case is similar to yours; more collectors respect and value your opinion than post messages. The greater percentage of the 435 members listen quite closely to expert arguments.

We are all men here and tend to get rowdy, but we should always be proud of a shiner honorably acquired.

Bye the bye, does not "Gut reaction" mean 'preliminary' reaction, subject to change upon learning more facts?

Wes:

"Gut Reaction - preliminary reaction, subject to change upon learning more facts". The very words that I was searching for! Lonnie, Pete, write that down, commit it to memory. Never can tell, you might be selected as a contestant on the Weakest Link.

Brandon:

IMHO, I think that you have missed the point entirely, but then I am not right 100% of the time.

Good Hunting,

So, I see what I said was taken a bit out of context.

I tried to say and possibly said it poorly; (this is in a general sense and not directed at you Orv) Meaning I WAS NOT speaking to or about Orv, I hold him in high regard.

Lets go out and find some Lugers today, [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ed:

Sorry to hear about your learning disorder. There is a technical name for it that slips my mind at the moment, however, I think that there is medication available that may help. Would suggest that you discuss this disability with you physician (sp?).

I was going to call my physician, pysiction, uhhh, doctor to help me get medication for remembering things, but I keep forgetting to call him.

I have the same problem...comes with age [73] and I call it "HALF-HEIMER'S" as I forget about half of what goes on!...but I can remember a gun/car I looked at in 1960?

Orv Reichert

Gentlemen,
Sorry I didn't reply to Garfield, but I will do so now concerning where I purchased the Death's Head. It was bought at a gun show in Kansas from a German militaria dealer. he was not a gun dealer. it was from his private collection. He informed me after I discussed the legitimacy of the gun that he obtained it from a WWII vet. Unknowing of its rareness he foolishly decided to have the gun plated. The previous owner claimed that the vet eventually realized that he had made a mistake. The vet then had the gun refinished. The man that i bought the gun from claimed that this was definately not a fake and was a WWII bring back. I'm currently trying to find out where i can get pictures taken and post them on the forum. I will do this as quickly as i can. Question--Since discovering the forum, I have read about issues of gun values. It is my interpretation that once a gun has been refinished it is worthless to a collector, and only good as a shooter. Is this always the case? Is my gun only a shooter now? If i found a .45 cal luger that had been nickle plated would it be only worth $500 vs. 1 million? Just trying to figure out what my gun is worth if it is legit. what does the forum think?

[quote]...he was not a gun dealer. it was from his private collection... <hr></blockquote>

(I have met that salesman several times in my travels.)

aaa, you have a shooter. Let's say that the vet wanted a snub-nose, and had two inches of the barrel cut off. Then realized his mistake and had two more inches of steel welded on and machined. It was ruined whenever the original two inches was cut off. Same with the pistol that has the original finish removed. You can replace finish, but it is not the original finish.

A .45 cal Luger that has been altered would be worth substantially less than a .45 cal Luger that has an honest patina, parts, etc. I do not know that its value would fall as far as a 9mm or 7.65mm but that is trying to say that a junk Rolls-Royce is only worth what a junk Ford is worth. An ex-movie actress will fetch more in a whore house than a housewife. Agree?

At the Tulsa show last October I saw three "deathsheads" at different tables within two hundred feet of each other. All in the 1917-1918 dates each priced at $1800. This was 75% of the deathsheads I had seen in 35 years of luger collecting. Since last October I've seen at least five more.

Gives one cause to wonder....

I think a "rarer" Luger in bad or refinished shape is worth more than an average "shooter" Luger, but the price is much, much less than one in original shape.

I am new to this board but since I'm an old guy and have been collecting for over 25 years I guess I might as well get into the fray. I would suggest that is very easy to ask questions or criticize but the really tough part of the game is coming up with the answers. The Jans and Orvs and others have earned the right to my respect and appreciation for all the help and knowledge they have provided over the years and continue to provide today. When I was younger, I might have ended this with a comment something like "don't waste their time and mime with cheap shots". But since I am older now and more restrained I won't say that. dave

There is a reason you are suddently seeing 'Death Head' lugers.

I posted this some months back to the P38 forum.. I think it is appropriate [now] to post it here.

I received this info from a foreign collector who got it from an importer and forwarded it to me. I have removed some names to protect the guilty and this site [from the lawyers]
==========
The guns your friend refers to are brought in to the USA by XXX, from their British company "XXXXXXX" (The owner is an old friend of mine.)

The guns actually come from the former Yugoslavia, and are arsenal refinished there. They also sell them through XXXXXXX in Germany to other parts of the world.

Your friend should be a little cautious
as those boys can make anything "rare." I saw their efforts when they produced several hundred SS "death camp" Mausers.

The stamps they use to make the stuff [look] authentic are made in Birmingham, England. The place that makes them does a great trade in C broad arrow and British broad arrow stamps
=========

So, now you know!

Orv Reichert

The only two death head Lugers I have ever seen were obvious and crude fakes. One had been touched up over the stamping with a "blueing" pen. I had great luck several years back in acquiring a genuine GEW 98 death head rifle. This gun is 100% correct as an early variation. The photo's of the two death heads on the rifle follow. I have used them as a guide when looking for fakes since I would think that any Death Head Luger would have a similar marking. The key to my spotting the fakes was the mouth of the death heads which should show a full set of teeth. Also, notice the "dimples" on the ends of the crossed bones.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Dscn1437.jpg

Mark
The markings on your GEW 98 are great looking but not necessarily a good example to use for evaluating Lugers as there is a fair amount of difference, even discounting the SS runes. I have seen what some authorities consider genuine Death Head Lugers both with and without "a full set of teeth". As early as 1958 Fred Datig published in the revised edition of "The Luger Pistol" what is probably the first public illustration of a Death Head Luger and it doesn't have a tooth in its head. Could it be an early fake? Possibly, but that is a little early on to have that happening already. I have a Death Head that I purchased in 1970 for the price of a common Luger that has no teeth. It is not surprising that there may be more than one type of stamp that was used to produce these Lugers over a period of years. The fact that there is the possibility of a variance in marking is shown by your GEW 98 since there is clearly a difference between the two Death Heads on the same rifle.
The flip side of this, however, is that this variance is exactly what makes it a fruitful target for forgers and requires increased vigilance on the part of the buyer. Just look at the high occurrance of Death Head Lugers that George Anderson stated in his post. Quite frankly, I would be very hesitant to buy a Death Head Luger today.

I’ve lost track of all the faked Model 98 rifles I have seen in the past five years that have been stamped (or even crudely carved) to present them as authentic SS weapons. Over in the K98k forum, the long running pun is that “Bubba made it” in his basement. The most common forgeries are based on reworked G98 and bnz (Steyr-Daimler-Puch) coded K98 rifles. Both these types are historically recorded as being issued to Waffen-SS and concentration camp guard personnel. The SS managed to swindle a large number of reworked G98 rifles, as well as Steyr model slave labor produced K98s. This was to circumvent the OKH authorities. Anyway, these days anyone who has a “standard” bnz coded K98 (especially the years 1942/43) is liable to succumb to the huge temptation to mark it with a death head and SS rune somehow. This will increase its value by five to six times or more. And Mark, I disagree with you that the markings on German rifles can’t be used as a “good example to use for evaluating Lugers”. The authentic death head markings seem to have a clean uniformity of appearance between German pistols and rifles. In particular, the skull is well defined, and for authentic SS marked ones, the lighting bolts are super sharp and straight. Fake death head markings also share the same bogus inconsistencies between pistols and rifles. Lugers do not exist in some kind of special vacuum Mark. Many K98 and G43 collectors, like Robert Jensen and Darrin Weaver, have got to be some of the better evaluators of German collectable firearms. And as far as MarkC’s G98 is concerned, I have never seen a real SS rifle in publications (or otherwise) that was stamped with two death heads like that. But the super straight and clean lighting bolts makes me believe it’s probably authentic. The left side death head also resembles the one in Robert Ball’s book. But it still makes me wonder. If it is a fake, it’s the best one I’ve ever seen.

Heydrich,

Richard Law's publication "Backbone of the Wehtmacht: Kahr 98K Rifle 1934-45" is a great reference and has a chapter devoted to the death head rifles.

There is a photo of the exact dual death head stamping which appears in the book and on my rifle.

I appreciate all of the input on my comment regarding what a real death head on a Luger must look like. (I have never seen one so perhaps a forum member can post a picture for us all to look at?) The only real death heads I have seen appear on my rifle and I jumped to a conclusion. Although it is very apparent that this marking is far rarer on Lugers than K98 rifles........

Mark

Mark, I'm familiar with Law's book. But did not have a copy handy at the time. You're right, there is one listed like your rifle in Law's publication. My bad. The lightning bolts on your rifle are too clean anyway.

Just thought you guys might like to see the death head from the binocular case that came with my rifle. Notice the full set of teeth and dimples on the crossed bones.

The binoculars are in OK condition with the name of the soldier in the top of the case.

As an aside note, the second death heath on my rifle also has a full set of teeth and dimples on the crossed bones. I will post better photo's if you have any questions.


http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Dscn1447.jpg

MarkC, I totally agree with you, especially about the teeth on the skull. The German craftsmen were, and still are, proud of their work. Here is a photo of the deaths head on my SS officers hat, note the teeth and other details that set it off from fakes with lesser detail. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSCN0559.JPG

Herb; your SS skull is indeed authentic, but I can"t understand why some think a stamping on a gun should be the same as an SS medal. A stamp could never have the detail of a medal. Do you agree?
Lonnie

I think Herb just wanted to show off his cool SS artifact.

I would like to think all of you for your input on this matter. The previous owner of the gun that I purcased, agreed to take it back; he was very fair about the issue. I was unable to get any photos of the gun before I returned it. Im very sorry, I did not have enough time.

This was done for several reason:

1. The gun had a bad refinish job (part of it had been repolished and it just didn't look consistant with other period erfurts I have seen)

2. It appered to have some of the markings polished off.

3. I could not get an agreement to some of the individuals I showed the gun to.( they to questioned its lit.)

4. The lessons that the fourm taught me

I paid 1000 bucks for the gun, but agree this fine gun (if real) was screwed up when the original owner thought it would be neet to have it plated, thus leaving it in the shooter grade. I did recently see a deaths head at the tulsa gun show for sale at 2500 bucks and its markings looked the same as mine. This still offers no proof.

Do all of you agree?

Think I will stick to the good stuff in the future!!!!