Pb without number or stamps
 

Hi! I hope you undestand my text, my English is not very good.
Well, I have a Parabellum without any kind of numbers or other marks. My grandfather have got this gun 1915 or 1916 when he was a member in underground network trying to separate Finland from russia. Thanks to God they managed to do it. Germany supported them but officially Germany was impartial.

A agent who had come from germany had two Parabellum and my grandfather got one.

Numbers and stamps have not took away from this gun by welding or drilling or other way, there have never been numbers at all.

I paste pictures here if I manage to do it.

What do you think about this gun? s Parabellum like this unique? I Don`tknow what type of Parabellum this is. What are you thinking about the value of this gun?

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi1.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi9.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi10.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi4.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi5.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi6.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi7.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi8.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi2.JPG

Thank you for your response

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi3.JPG

Welcome to the forum Jussi!

There are NO acceptance stamps, or serial numbers on ANY parts? Not even internals?

How odd.

Since Finland was fighting against the Russians, it might have been special order, but I am sure there would have been more than just one received by the underground and not just this one if special ordered?

Your English is just fine, I helped on a word, and made the pictures show, I just think it makes it easier to "see" everything.

Ed

Hi Ed!

Thanks for help.

Yes, there are not any kind of stamps or numbers anywhere in this gun. Not even internals.

Finland was a part of Russia and there was a secret organisation who prepared civilwar. There was not war against Finland and Russia. War became later. Not a bunch of Parabellums have been because only rare agents can carry thinks in their backpacks. Later they carry weapons by ships but those guns have numbers.

I have asked about Parabellums in a finnish gun forum and one guy sayed that he have heart about a Parabellum like that.

Jussi

..

tac,
How can you tell?

Tac! This is not a grip safety model so how can you tell there is no Gesichert under the safety lever?

Color me very curious...

And here I thought you had X-ray eyes! :D

Jussi,

Could you please show us better photographs of the top of the gun (receiver and toggle) and also the areas where the serial number should normally appear on a Luger?

The photos you have already posted are not quite clear enough in these areas... and the rear toggle appears to have two digits of a serial number on it. A closeup of the front of the frame would be helpful in identification of your Luger.

see these enlargements of your photos regarding the rear toggle number..

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...reartoggle.jpg

Ofcourse John, I try to send better photos. This two litle things are litle damages.

You are talking about "Gesichert" what is it?

I can`t avoid temptation, i send a photo from my Mauser too ( with all numbers and stamps ) Notice a hole on wooden holster made by bullet.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_11.JPG

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_12.JPG

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_13.JPG

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_14.JPG

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_Mauser

Jussi

Jussi,

Gesichert is the German word for SAFE that is normally found underneath the safety lever and is exposed to view when the firearm safety is engaged.

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DWMFRAME.JPG

This is a very interesting firearm... There is no apparent evidence that any marks were removed...

Thank you for sharing photographs of your Luger and your Mauser C-96

Jussi,
Nice photographs. Because of the relieved sear bar, I believe we can safely narrow down the year your grandfather obtained this Luger to no earlier than 1916.

Hi Guys, just some speculation. Could it be possible that these two Lugers were sales samples? Put together at the DWM Factory for show and tell? Then they may not have been in an inventory situation and thus un-numbered.

In any case a very interesting pistol!!! :confused:

* Judging from Jussi's story of his grandfather's association with the underground and the "Agent" from whom he acquired this piece, I'd suggest a "Lunch Box" gun was more likely. You know of Lunch Box guns....parts spirited out of the Factory one or two at a time in a "lunch box" until all were acquired to assemble a full pistol.
* An alternative constructive speculation would be an "Armorer's Box" assembly.
* Using Gibson's TKP as a reference, this piece appears to have the machining and grip curvature characteristics of a DWM. If any Worker's stamps appear on the inside(Front well, rear well, left grip frame, receiver/toggle undersides, etc.), they might be compared to a known 1916 DWM for confirmation.
* Interesting gun. This "phantom" probably shoots one hole groups too!
Respectfully,
Bob

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> ALL--- please note that steamed Tacfoley does indeed have xray vision!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/JussiLunchbox.jpg

Close examination (and a bit of image processing)reveals that there may be a witness mark across the barrel and receiver.

Jussi, would it be possible for you to take the gun apart and photograph the bottom of the receiver for us? It may be a tantalizing addition to the witness mark and the Luger assembly mystery.

Bob (Rockin'WR) has a good point about workers stamps, if you find any under the receiver or in the receiver well (or anyplace else) it would be good to know. This is a very unique and interesting Luger you have.

And it does seem that Steamed TACFoley does, indeed, have X-ray vision!

--Dwight

Nice "scrub" on the photo Dwight... I agree that there appears to be a witness mark there... Photo forensics is a pretty neat pastime...

Hi Guys! Of course I send photos you need.

Bob, Agents was german army solders. I do not believe that they needed to use "lunch box" firearms. About agents (maybe it`s a wrong word but I don`t know better) and their missions can I read from history books here, it is not story it is history. Maybe German army had firearms like that for their secret missions.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_21.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_21.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_22.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_22.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_23.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_23.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_24.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_24.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_25.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_25.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_26.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_26.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_27.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_27.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_28.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_28.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Jussi

Jussi,

How about a sharp focus closeup of this area of the frame?

This pistol gets more interesting all the time!

Thanks for the additional photographs...

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussiframe.jpg

Hi John!

I hope these photos are sharp enough.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_31.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_31.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_32.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_32.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_33.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_33.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

(photos thumbnailed for display by Admin-JS)

Jussi

thanks Jussi,... that's great photography.

Remarkable. Not only no regular markings, but no workers markings, at least visible in the photographs.

Is the extractor stamped "Geladen", or is that blank too? Are the small parts--normally strawed--actually in the white, as they seem in the pictures?

I pulled out my copy of Gibson and compared the photos to the manufacturer comparisons which he presents. It appears to me that this gun is most like a DWM. Thor may have an informed opinion on this.

WAG ALERT--

I have to suspect that this pistol was, for whatever reason, purpose-built this way. The lack of workers' marks implies that parts were either selected very early in the manufacturing process, or specific instructions were issued not to mark the parts. A "lunch-box special" would likely be made of parts from various stages of manufacture and inspection, and logically would have at least some markings. An Armorer's special would certainly have inspectors stamps (if the parts came from Erfurt), or might be covered with S/42s (although the parts would certainly not be serial-numbered). Also, the barrel and receiver would only be available at a repair depot, and would have some markings (but not witness marks!).

A successful "Lunch Box Special" would have to include a barrel and receiver already mated together, aligned and headspaced. A DWM or a Mauser would have at least one inspection stamp on the side of the receiver, and the date at the receiver top. An Erfurt or Simson would have a small stamp on the barrel in addition.

I'm intrigued by the presence of a witness mark (naturally!). The mark appears to be two strikes, with two different instruments, not aligned. I'm not quite sure what to make of this, I'm not even confident enough to make a WAG.

--Dwight

I would venture to guess that this gun was purpose built this way in order to camouflage its origins....should any agent be caught with it.....no direct evidence as to its providence.....I seem to remember hearing about other countries involved in espionage supplying their agents with "clean" guns...

I have seen so-called "sanitized" SKSs (rifles without the usual country-of-origin markings) from China that were Vietnam bring-backs.

mm

Interesting story Jussi. Here in Norway we received quite a few unmarked/unnumbered Swedish M40 Lahti pisols during WW2, this was due to the fact that neutral Sweden didn't want to piss off the Germans occupying Norway. Lunchbox guns were also common, especially Krag-J�¸rgensens and M1914 .45 pistols.

Hi! I am thinking that Lugercollector is on right way.

It`s very interesting that there is other guns too without markings.

Balder, are you sure that M40 Lahti pistols are Swedish? Armas Lahti was the most famous finnish firearm designer and Lahti-pistol is one of his design. I don`t know that in Sweden have manufactured pistol using his designings.

Dwight! I`ll take better photos from witnes mark but I don`t have necessery optical equipments at home, I have to travel for my work but on monday I send to You better photo from this mark.

Jussi

I was just about to reply to Jussi's latest posting when I noticed tacfoley's response - I couldn't have said it better myself!

Balder

Jussi, You didn't answer the reply that asked "Is the word "Geladen" stamped on the extractor?" Just curious as to the answer.....

Hyvaa Paivaa Tac! You are amazing me, you speak finnish. And thank you Tac and Baldur for your facts.

Sweden supported Norway during Germany occupying, it`s a new and very interesting fact to me. Who did it, private persons or government?

Jussi,

The Norwegian/Swedish relations during the war are complicated enough to fill a few books. The short version is that the Swedes were turncoats, meaning they allowed German troop transports through Sweden and other things that were considered pro-German. As the German luck of war turned, so did the Swedish attitude; they started to allow the forming of Norwegian "police troops" (for all practical purposes a more or less regular military force) by Norwegian refugees in Sweden. There were a few refugee camps in Sweden, Ã??reryd was probably the largest. I believe it was in the last year or so that these Husqvarna Lahtis were issued to Norwegian agents upon returning from Sweden, but we're not talking big numbers here - from what I hear about 20 guns at the most. I wish I could tell you more about who issued them and why, but I will need to do more research on that one.
BTW, your country has made several great guns; I take great pleasure and pride in my 1931 Suomi submachinegun - what a beauty!

Regards,

Balder

Dwight! I send a photo you can see the witness marks. The barrel have been separete from the gun begause I have used once a 7.65 Parabellum barrel. This 9 mm barrel you can see in all my photos is the original one. The witness marks are not aligned correctly because wrong moment. I think that the marks are made by same tool, The frame`s surface is at higher level as the barrels surface. Bottom of the marks are as deep in the frame and in the barrel.

LugerLizzie! I am sorry, I forgot to answer to you, There is not text "Geladen" in this gun. There is not any text or numbers or stamps anywhere at all.

I have used Suomi-submacinegun when I was a conscript in Finnish airforce. I liked it, it was better to carry as assault rifle.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_merkit.JPG

Jussi

Jussi,

Very interesting, thanks much.

--Dwight

think we all have lugers that do not fit the norm. this one is special in no markings that give it away...fits an not for use under regular catogory.