What type of sandpaper to remove rustspots?
 

Well...at least I got your attention.

I finally had the chance to examine the Luger I was offered. I gathered the following info based on advice I received and reading this website.

General: It is a military P08 complete, except for mag, and in working condition (cocks, fires, safety works). Now that it is not in front of me I do not recall if it had the stock lug or a hold open (no mag to try).

History: It has been in his family since the 50's and has not been fired, to the best of his knowledge, during that time since they did'nt have the mag.

Condition: The bluing is uniform overall except for wear at the muzzle, sideplate, grip area and "highpoints" where it has been handled. There is no deep pitting, however, there are small surface rust spots on the grip area (size of pen tip). They will scrape off with a fingernail. What is the best method (other than sandpaper!) to remove these spots? "Straw finish" is visible on trigger, safety, mag release and ejector. it is worn off the front of trigger and safety. When safety is engaged, safety lever that pops up is unfinished silver. Grips do not have any cracks, gouges or chips. Bore is dirty but sharp rifling is visible.

Markings: As per the pic on this site, a DWM on toggle top, 1913 on chamber top.

- Left side: 1597
- Front below barrel: 1597(lower case "written b" below it)
- Underside of barrel: 1597(with same small b)
8,82 Bo24 (2 dots over o)
- Right side: Proofs (did not look too closely, to be honest)
- 97 on extractor, toggle front, toggle rear, sideplate, trigger(under sideplate), trigger bar (in the on safe position), takedown lever. I did not strip it completely, would there be others?

What type of mag would be correct for this Luger?

He is quite content to take $175.00 for it. I intend to buy it (and will take some pics), unless the info I have given indicates otherwise to this forum.

Is there anything else I should consider, prior to purchase?

Thank you in advance.

Regards, Alex

BUY IT ALEX! It is a steal at that price... and ANY original Luger magazine in good condition should function... the only magazines that will not work are NEW AIMCO manufactured Stainless Steel...

#0000 steel wool rubbed VERY GENTLY with gun oil as a lubricant should remove the surface rust. Don't rub hard or remove anything but the rust.

What a great find!

If you should decide to pass on this purchase, let me know! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

and Oh Yeah... make sure the bill of sale includes the entire serial number including the suffix letter and chamber date and manufacturer...

Alex, from your description you will own a matching 1913 DWM military Luger. The barrel - possibly a replacement - is made of Bohler Steel (Bo) with a hardness factor of 24. Exactly how that translates to a Rockwell hardness I don't know.

The surface rust may be removed using 0000 steel wool or fine bronze wool and a good grade of gun oil. Apply the oil and rub gently in straight lines up and down the grip strap in the areas affected until the rust is gone. The bluing shouldn't be harmed.

The correct mag would have a wooden base. I'll have to check my references to see how the numbers (if any) should be stamped on the base. You can get a new Mec-Gar mag from Tom Heller (Lugerdoc) for, I believe, $25 plus shipping. They are good replacement mags and the two I have work quite well.

For $175, it's a rare bargain and you are one lucky young man. The quality of workmanship will be absolutely first rate and you will own a fine pistol. Enjoy it.

Alex,
first, I would use some sort of cleaner to make sure that the tiny rust spots are not just dirt. If it is in fact not dirt. Then try some Glitz. It is available at hardware stores. Rub gently using wet wool window trim. I think it is wool. Its what you put between a sliding window and the frame to keep the air out. Maybe a wet bath towel would do the job. Rub gently until you get the hang of it. If the rust still persists, then use a product from Rig that looks like a stainless steel scouring pad. I forget the name. But use oil very liberally. The last thing you want to do is take off bluing.
Big Norm

Sorry guys, NO STEEL WOOL, NO. NEVER!!!!! get a stainless looking "brillo" pad from "Big 45 Frontier" shop, Vally Springs South Dakota, sorry I do not have a phone number. If you can not find the place let me know and I will do some research, however I leave in the A.M. for a hunt....DID I SAY NO STEEL WOOL ....use a bit of oil and this pad, only a very small piece is needed, it will remove all rust and not touch the blue. I use it on all my guns, sorry again, but on my Colt SAA's (love them next to Lugers) that I shoot it will remove the fowling and not touch the blue. I have been in the gun smithing business for over 25 years and have never found anything like this to clean rust and never leave a trace on the finish...

Alex,

You have found THE bargain. If you have an ounce of conscience, give the old man $350 for the pistol and you will still have an extreme bargain but will not fry in pergatory for quite so long.

For those that don't recommend using steel wool on a rust blued weapon, remember that the original finish was obtained by removing the rust formed by the blueing solution with either steel wool or a carding wheel. Repeated applications of the blueing solution followed by more rubbing with the steel wool or "scratching" with the carding wheel finished the process. The rust blue is tougher than the old "charcoal blue" applied on a very highly polished surface by Colt. If care is taken with 4/0 steel wool and a good oil or penetrant, no harm will come to the finish. As someone mentioned, always try to use the steel wool in the same direction as the machining marks. Remember that any blue will come off if rubbed long enough with anything.

I offered a fool proof method for cleaning the luger and now JP with his sage advise can cover the cost to repair any damage caused by steel wool, you can not over rub a blue job, within common sence, not appling oiled pad with a bench grinder, as this pad will not damage the blue. I'll just throw away all the years of gun work experance and ask Peppers next time I have a question.

"charcoal blue"?? do you mean "bone and charcoal" color case finish?

Pretty obvious others think "their" method works...

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> More than one way to skin a cat?

<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

I have to side with John S., Doubs and Johnny P., gun oil and #0000 steel wool will remove surface rust without damaging the original rust blue surface. Lots of us guys have been doing it for years (years of gun work experience). The only time I have found that method to remove a blued finish is if it was a cold blue. As stated by the aforementioned individuals care should be exercised to just rub lightly and in the direction of machining. A heavy hand with any method will degrade a finish.

I cringe at the thought of using steel wool. But I will bow to the experienced people above. But let us remember that Alex mentioned that the rust pits could be taken off by a simple scratching with the finger nails. That is why I suggested using milder alternatives first. If the rust persists, then try the other methods but always remember to use a liberal dosage of oil and go lightly at first until you get a feel for what you are doing.
Big Norm

Norm,
[quote]liberal dosage of oil and go lightly at first until you get a feel for what you are doing <hr></blockquote>
You have stated the key in a nutshell. Go easy until you know what is happening.

Alex, there is shade tree work and there is professional work. I know what works and what is best for my customers guns, I hate to say this but "trust me" on this one....don't you just hate it when someone says "trust me"....also I use a small piece of this pad, around a brass bore brush for those really pitted barels before I apply the electric/chemical cleaners, no matter what, keep a pad of this on your gun bench...and no I do not own stock in the company, Martha Stewart told me last week to sell it, good luck.

Alex, a little more on the Bohler steel barrel; According to Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers", from 1913 to 1916 a VERY FEW Lugers had barrels with a Bohler steel hardness marking, indicating that the barel was made of that manufacturer's steel. It seems that your barrel is definitely original.

Also, the magazine bottom should be wood with the serial number stamped across the base (between the "knobs") and the suffix letter - if any - below the serial number. If the magazine was the spare mag, there will be a "+" stamped on it too.

I can tell from the comments above that there are some genuinely green (with envy) collectors about. Enjoy your good luck - you'll have a story to tell for years! It's enough to know that it's going to someone who will value it for it's true worth.

policeluger,
Color casehardening and charcoal blueing impart two entirely different finishes to the metal. Color casehardening is done by sealing the parts to be casehardened in an airtight container packed with bone or leather charcoal, heated to a proper temperature, and then quickly quenched by dumping the parts and charcoal into water. The part then has a beautiful mottled color finish from 20 to 30 microns deep. This finish is commonly seen on the Colt Single Action Army frames, and the receivers/actions of high grade shotguns.
Charcoal blueing is performed by putting the parts into large coal fired ovens containing a mixture of ground charcoal and bone. The parts are lowered into the mixture for two or three minutes, then withdrawn. The parts were then rubbed down with a whiting powder, then repeatedly put back in the ovens until the desired color was reached. The higher the initial polish, the deeper the blue appears. This color will be seen on prewar Colt Single Action Army barrels, triggerguards, and backstraps. The first 1911's delivered to the U.S. Government had the extremely high polish finish, and a request was made by the Ordnance Dept. to go to a more matte finish. Immediately following WWI Colt changed from coal to gas fired ovens and used this process until the beginning of WWII. When Colt went back into production following WWII they used the hot salt blue process.

I greatly appreciate the advice. After reading the responses I have decided to purchase the Luger and pick it up tomorrow. Perhaps the rust spot issue is better revisited when I post some pics? Maybe some before and after?

Is there an online source for the correct wood bottomed magazines?

Finally, the issue of shooting. I am intrigued by the prospect of trying it out. I realize it is not a "collector grade" Luger, but are there any issues I should consider which would deter me from firing it?

Thank you in advance.

Respectfuly, Alex

Alex; There are some things you need to do.
*Get a good magazine, preferably from the correct period, but any quality mag should function.
*Get a book or download instructions for taking apart, putting together and operating.
*When you get the pistol, take it to a good gunsmith for a cleaning, oiling and evaluation. You may want to carefully remove the wood stocks and look under them for rust. For the spots you have mentioned and any others you may find, just wipe them with an oily patch for now. Tell the gunsmith not to buff, polish or do anything else to the gun's finish or try to remove rust without clearing the method with you first.
*Use the methods described by the others to deal with rust. I have taken #0000 steel wool, dry, and deliberately tried to remove factory blue, and it's nearly impossible. Like they said, use a light, penetrating gun oil and very light pressure. Sometimes the rust will leave a dark spot in the blueing - this may be permanent without stronger meausures that may damage the blue.
*You need to preserve the stocks, as they must be very dry after all those years. There are many opinions on how to do this, and here's another; use no water at any time. Take them off the pistol and clean them with dry cleaning fluid (naptha) on a toothbrush. Check for cracks and repair by filling crack with liquid (not gel) Super glue. Oil the stocks with raw (not boiled) linseed oil.
*Get some standard round-nose ball ammunition.
*You should now be ready to fire it, assuming the gunsmith okayed it.
You are going to own a beautiful, valuble Luger, and you you're getting a legendary buy on it. Enjoy.

alex,
That is very good advice from saxman. The only thing I might add is to be extremely careful removing the left grip panel. When you get ready to remove it for the first time it may be firmly planted in the frame. Raise it only high enough to clear the frame and then slide it out from under the safety lever. Many a Luger has the top right corner of the left grip panel broken off by raising the grip too high during removal and breaking off the part of the grip panel under the safety lever. I would leave the grips panels at home when I took it to the gunsmith just in case he is not familiar with the potential for breaking the left grip panel.

"are there any issues I should consider which would deter me from firing it?"

Two things come to mind. The extractor with its matching number could break. The gun then becomes nonmatching, droping in value. The 2nd thing is the mainspring is 90 years old and tired. It should be replaced for reliable functioning and to protect the pistol during recoil.
Craig

If you change the recoil spring (NOT main spring!) don't throw the old one away. I'm looking for some soft recoil springs.

One last point for anyone contemplating shooting an all-original parts 1913 luger: The grips are the most fragile parts of the pistol and are numbered to that specific gun. If cracked or chipped, you will seriously damage the gun's value forever. Use replacement grips if you must shoot the pistol. The right grip is most fragile because of the very very thin rib on the inside surface. This rib is frequently cracked or broken and ancient grips are especially fragile from oil absorption or age drying. The left grip is next most vulnerable and chips around the safety lever, usually.

Firing pin tips are next most frequently broken. These can be repaired if broken but may not be strong enough to fire if rewelded. A substitute fp is wise if you are new to lugers and not familiar with how to decock or dry fire safely.

Few gunsmiths understand how to evaluate and inspect a luger--it is a unique system. You are better off in many instances learning about luger construction and operation and examining your luger yourself.

Congratulations on owning the best piece of 20th century history you can hold in your hand.

Dave

Alex, One followup to LP08's and the other members good advice, the fireing pin will not be fluted on your pistol if it is original or not changed out for the fluted kind which lets high pressure gas escape from a punctured primer. It is a good idea to find a fluted fireing pin to use when shooting this pistol. The Germans changed them for a reason. Jerry Burney

Ps. I agree that triple aught steel wool and much gun oil will not harm blueing in my experience but I wish our gunsmithing member,PoliceLuger, could elaborate some of his knowledge and experience concerning what it does etc. I am always willing to learn something new...

Also , congratulations, give your Fathers friend a hug and a kiss...he deserves it.

[quote] After reading the responses I have decided to purchase the Luger <hr></blockquote>

alex, you worry me. In the time that you took to make up your undecisive/indecisive mind, the old man could have died! Can't you see all of these fellers posting on this thread that they are chomping at the bit to get their hands on such a bargain?
My god, boy!
And you are going to pick it up tomorrow? To hell with that! Go over there tonight and roust the old fellow out of bed and strike the deal!
Let the pistol rust in your hands, not his.

Relax Mr. Wes, I bought it and brought it home today. I am in the process of stripping and cleaning it. I must say it is quite an addictive pursuit! I will post some pics and further info tomorrow once I have finished "playing".

Regards, Alex

alex,

Charon has rowed you across the river Styx.

I’m sure if Alex didn’t have an obolus to give old Charon, he’d gladly take the 1913 DWM instead as payment for a boat ride across the Acheron or the Styx.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/charon.jpg

I was gone for a few days of hunting and will not argue the issue here of steelwool vs anything else, but to say we have progressed in the past 50 years from steelwool to newer methods. Steelwool, if over done will effect the blue, new blue, old blue, cold blue. Newer cleaning tools have been come on the market. But I bet some are still shooting from that pound can of IMR 13 that grandpa got at the end of the Great War....lets drop this subject. OK?

I don't think so. Why don't you enlighten us? Could it be brass wool there in your bag of tricks?

I agree. I have an Artillery which looks like the blue was "fogged" by steel wool when somebody tried to clean rust out of some barrel pitting. In my dim past I seem to recall doing something similar myself (assuredly while practicing on a junk gun, not anything valuable). If there are practical, proven alternatives, I would like to hear about them, along with techniques for their use.

--Dwight

OK this won't go away, here is the address:
Big .45 Frontier Gun shop
PO Box 270
Hill City, SD. 57745
1-800-342-1548
as I said I hold no stock in this compamy, that is commerical type stock, but I do hold a lot of faith in the products, this pad will not harm any blue finish, my best Colt SSA, my prized Lugers, and most important my customers guns that I do not want to have to replace. A small bit of oil or better yet #9 and rub as hard as you want, it will clean away years of gunk and fouling and leaves the finish untouched..if you want to use steelwool have a blast just don't blame me, and I was only trying to help.