Krausewerk Lugers???
 

Krausewerks in Northern California (SF Bay Area militaria dealer and creator of the Krausewerk 45 ACP Luger)is offering two 41 BYF Luger (complete rigs) for sale - so called "Black Widows." One seems perfectly correct - apparent original finish with some honest wear where it would be expected, black bakelite grips, FXO - bakelite mags and etc.

The second rig (serial number xxx95 newer to the store) causes me to wonder - alot! It shows no worn areas to the bluing, but the bluing is not a consistent color, nor does it have a consistent luster. Some areas at the mussel are of an uneven surface, but still show 100% bluing. Although parts are numbered and matching - some are of a flat finish bluing while others have a higher luster. The grips are of a different shade than the verified original bakelite grips I've seen and have numerous flaws in the checkered areas including extruded plastic which bubbles above the height of the faux checkering, giving the surface an uneven feel (these imperfections are not attributable to wear).

Ted, a salesperson, showed me the rig and explained that since it cost the shop less than the other one, he would sell it for $1250 (there was no price on the tag). He also said that he considered in better condition than the other. I told him that I was not interested.

But after I left the store, I phoned Ted and expressed my concerns and he said that he was absolutely positive it was completely original. I also spoke to Mike and he said that he agreed with Ted and would put it in writing and that he welcomed knowlegeable Luger authorities to inspect the pistol.

I have never doubted Ted or Mike in the past, but if this Luger (xxx95 for $1250 - Holster is dated 1942)is what they claim - everything I thought that I had learned about BYF 41s (and other Lugers) from this site over the last year is of no use.

Any SF Bay Area collectors who can check this out - I would love to hear your opinions!

MM [img]confused.gif[/img]

Mike, did you notice any other markings on the pistol, like acceptance marks or proof marks? The serial number is all wrong for a Military Mauser. However, it could be a commercial. Maybe Jan C. could shed some light on this one. [img]confused.gif[/img]

The proof marks are all correct. The serial number I mentioned is not complete "95" are the last two digits.

mm

The number of X's you included in the serial number adds up to a five digit number. You must have made an error, as there should be only four digits. Giving the last two numbers tells us absolutely nothing about the pistol. What we need to know are the first one or two digits plus the suffix letter (if any) below the serial number.

Where is Krausewerks? I am also in the SF area and will be in the South Bay on Saturday. Are they opened on Saturdays? Maybe I can check this one out for my on-going education.

The extra "X" is a typo. It is a BYF 41 with all correct proof marks. The last two numbers of the four-digit serial number is "95." Everyone is missing the point. The issues are whether the Luger is refurbished and has fake grips and is being passed off as all original. With this hobby, small details in condition can result dramatic price differences for items that on the surface seem identical.

mm

Mike
RE 41 byf
Based on your description the grips sound suspect as does the remainder of the Luger. Trust your own judgement above that of the seller. The seller has everything to gain by selling the Luger. As Orv Reichert says, morals go out the door when money is concerned.
Jan C. Still

Jimbo,

Krausewerk is in San Mateo


83-B 21st Ave, San Mateo CA 650/571-7583

Hello All,

This was a very intersting and very informative exchange.

The only thing I think would have made it a bit more "appropriate" would have been if the original poster had not mention the seller/shop by name.

This same discussion could have started with "I saw an interesting luger at a local gun shop...".

The original poster would have gotten all the same great technical advice from our experts with which he could continue his "in person" discussions with the seller.

If we continue to choose to "accuse" a seller on our public Forum of passing on a luger that "may not be right", then should we not do the ethical thing by e-mailing the affected seller with our Forum posting, so the seller can see the accusations and have a chance to reply ? And maybe have a chance to rebute ?

I personally think this would have been a great technical, learning discussion without even knowing who is actually selling the luger.

The Forum member who started the post would have been armed with enough info. to decide not to buy the gun.

On the other hand, if the report that Mr. Krause did state he welcomes all challenges to this luger's authenticity, maybe the orignal poster could go back and take ditigal photos and ask Mr. Krause if posting these photos on the Forum would be "ok". Mr. Krause should also be invited to our Forum so he could participate in the evaluation and discussions about this gun's merits.

Just my thoughts... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

mm,

Thanks for the location of Krausewerk.


Hi Pete,

I am glad they mentioned Krausewerk because I would like to go see both Black Widows for myself. I don't disagree with you in principal, though. But how could I identify the seller so I could take a look at the Lugers myself. Had "mm" identified an anonymous Bay Area dealer, how could I identify the store so I could find it and check them? Thanks Pete,

Jimbo

I don't have a digital camera yet - I am in the market for one. I agree, that in the future, this would be a better way to proceed.

Mr Krause did say yesterday that he welcomed knowledeable Luger collectors to verify what he claims about this BYF 41 (serial number xx95). He had and may still have a great reputation with me if what he claims is true. When a dealer says that he welcomes other experts to verify his claims and is willing to back it up with a written statement - I respect that (if he is also willing to make a refund if proved wrong).

These days if you want to contact other knowledgeable collectors in a specific niche of such a specialized field of collecting - an internet Luger forum would seem to be an appropriate venue.

Mr. Krause is well known to Luger collectors because of the 45 ACP that he developed. As far as I know, he enjoys a good reputation as a dealer. My problem is that I have a BYF 41 with bakelite grips that is correct and I have examined about 40 others. This one offered by Mr. Krause differs dramatically from the ones I have seen as well as the other one he has in his shop. I have learned much about Lugers from this site over the last year about my BYF 41 specifically - and I am extremely grateful to all of you.

The Luger I examined yesterday is nothing like all the other BYF 41s I have seen that are in original condition. Perhaps this is a variant that in which the uneven and atypical bluing and crude and shoddy plastic grips are a rare find? It just does not jibe with the quality of other BYF 41s I have examined. In fact, my first impression was that it was an East German rework. If I am proved wrong I will, on this forum, and also directly to Mike and Ted apologize for ever calling into question their claims. But if their claims are proved false, is this forum not well served?

mm

Pete
Many Luger dealers make every effort to sell correct Lugers. Its my experience (and that of many long time collectors) that a few sellers are the source of most bad Lugers.

Many long time collectors dont buy from these dealers that constantly sell bad Lugers. Some big time dealers wont waste their time examining for sale collections if the source of that collection is these few bad sellers.

I really dont understand how these sellers of bad Lugers stay in business. I would suspect that an important part of their trade is closet and new collectors.

In my opinion ignoring the source of the bad Lugers ignores a big part of the problem.

I think that it would be interesting to ask the membership, how many years have they been collecting and what dealer/dealers do they most trust to buy from.
Jan C. Still

That, sir, would accentuate the positive experiences and not specify negatives, which in this format should be avoided. The process of deduction would then provide the obvious. Recommend that site moderator opinion be requested.
rk

Such a list would be interesting.

Hello Jimbo,

If the original post by MJM had only indicated a local gun shop in the SF/Bay area, you might have sent MJM a private e-mail (through the Forum's PM feature) asking MJM for the shop's location so you could see the luger in person.

Hello MJM,

Since you do not have a digital camera, why not ask Mr. Krause to take photos and e-mail them to you so you can post here on the Forum. Again, this could have been done without the need to name the shop/seller by name and you would have still been able to get all Forum members to help you determine the luger's merits. Lots of Forum members do this with sellers of lugers on the Internet. When we find a gun, we ask the seller to send jpegs, and then share these photos pubically or privately with others on the Forum who may be a lot more knowledgeable about that type of luger. When I do this, I usually do not let other knows who is selling the gun. I am just trying to get info. to allow me to make a decent buying decision. I do know try to hurt the seller or his reputation; based on the merits of one gun.

Hello Jan,

My opinon is that the Forum best serves its members by educating the members to increase their knowledge base and to make good buying and collecting decisions.

If we beginners can be helped by experts such as yourself to know when to stay away from a "bad" luger, I think the most important purpose of the Forum is achieved.

In an ideal world, all the bad luger dealers would be driven out of business as their busniess dries up. But I do not think this is possible. Nor do I think it should be the purpose of this Forum.

If each Forum member can solicit the help of others on this Forum to make their buying decision about a particular luger, I think the Forum does a good deed.

And even with all the Forum's energies used to expose such bad dealers, if we chose to do this; I do not think this would make a significant dent in their business. I imagine most of the lugers these folks sell are to folks that have never heard of the Luger Forum, or the NAPCA, or are folks that probably do not even read luger books and probably just walk in off the street and into the gun show or into the gun shop.

I for one would like to invite you, Jan, to head up a new Forum section some of us are talking about called the "Authenticity" section; whereby the technical merits of a luger are examined and discussed. In this manner, the only person really needing to know the seller's identity might be the prospective buyer that comes to the Forum for help. If this sounds interesting, John D. or John S. would love to sign you up for this co-moderator role; if you haven't been approached by them, already.

Hello RK and Luke,

I have traded many private, off-line e-mails with other Forum members asking who they buy from and who they will not buy from. The funny thing I gathered from such shared info. is that some same seller's names appear on both the good and the bad lists. This confirms in my mind that each luger sale is unique and that even the best sellers have peddled a bad gun from time to time. If we post such lists on the Forum, who would ultimately determine who the bad guys really are ? And do we really want to go there...?

If the facts are accurate concerning a gun, and there is a question about the authenticity or accuracy of representation of the gun, there should be no hesitation in naming the dealer who is offering the gun. After all, he offering the gun to the public.

Sellers need publicity to sell and their reputation is dependent upon honesty. Any gun dealer should welcome the presentation of his wares without advertising costs to him. If the dealer is dishonest, then I can see where he would want to remain anonymous.

I see and mostly agree with what you are saying Wes, butâ?¦ (always a but, huh?), but, lets say I take some digital photos, sometimes they don't always show the gun the best. It shows some spots on it, a scratch here and there. Two people on the forum say it is all messed up, or that the spots must be from cold bluing (the home type). The dealer can't defend himself because he deals in lots of different types of guns and isn't a Luger guy, per se, so, what does that mean?

That means that he is trying to sell a Luger that is 96% and now several people on the forum, from a picture have stated that it is a re-blue and good only as a shooter. So on the forum, I think it is not the best policy to state names or dealers.

As an example, I have seen several auctions that had an item and people go on about what a piece of crap it is, and then later you find out that it is someone on the forum. Or better yet, that someone on the forum that I know is the high bidder on the item. We can go on conjecture or guessing, but if the seller and the buyer have "talked" or e-mailed, they might know something we don't know.

Sorry, to make a long story short, you and I want to stay clear of bad dealers and if you want to mail me off line and warn me about bad dealers I am all for it 66mustang@palouse.com but I think that on the forum, in a public place, it just gets too ducky.

I believe in what Jan Still had to say. Follow your instincts. Cash is king and if a gun don't look right then walk on. There will be another Luger someplace else that you will love just as much. If there is a luger that I am seriously thinking about then you won't see me saying the sellers name on the forum because I would not want someone to go in there and buy it. This has nothing what so ever to do with ethics.
I had a problem with a 1904 navy on the old forum. I did not mention the dealers name on the forum. We had a WONDERFUL discussion on the forum about that Luger and I ended up deciding that the gun was an expensive fake and passed on it. I saved myself $8000+ and learned a lot about 1904 navies. A little later, a nice Borchardt came up for auction and I had the money to get it. I followed my instincts and now I have a Borchardt that I am really happy with.
Big Norm

[quote]I think that it would be interesting to ask the membership, how many years have they been collecting and what dealer/dealers do they most trust to buy from.
Jan C. Still <hr></blockquote>

I concur with Jan Still that this would be an interesting list, but to keep things on an even keel... please limit your posts to the POSITIVE dealings that your have had with a dealer. I would think that if this procedure is followed, we will avoid any flame wars, and the dealers that don't make this ad hoc good boy list will be self evident anyway... No rebuttals to what any member expresses as a positive experience will be permitted. Members are also cautioned that NEGATIVE posts about dealers WILL BE DELETED as soon as their presence is detected by the Moderators or Admin Staff.

That said... FWIW, you may proceed.

I am surprised that no one who personally knows him has suggested to Mike Krause that he join the Lugerforum... Then he could post his own photos and descriptions for all to see. We would certainly welcome him as a member.

Please take note if you haven't noticed already, that the Lugerforum has added two new classified ad forums for buying, selling and trading Lugers, parts and accessories...

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Thank you all for your responses. This has been a good learning experience for me and I hope for others as well as to how best proceed with questions of Luger authenticity and dealer expertise and/or honesty. John Sabato has outlined what the protocol will be for this and I will abide by it.

Anyone who does inspect the Luger in question - please email me privately through the Forum's PM email feature - I am very still very interested in your responses. [img]cool.gif[/img] mm

John Sabato/Moderator/Site Administrtor/What Ever:

Perhaps I have misinterpreted your directive regarding members comments re their experiences with dealers. As I understand your recent ruling, members can only post "POSITIVE" statements regarding transactions with a dealer. No member can respond in a NEGATIVING manner to a "POSITIVE" statement made by a member regarding a transaction with a dealer. Any NEGATIVE postings reagarding a dealer with be DELETED.

If I have read your directive correctly, I would suggest that you have a friend or acquaintance take a visual check to see how far (commented edited by Admin). <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> Added by Moderator

Do you Moderators make up these rules up as you go along? No, they have a board that talks about these things. Added by moderator

If, somehow, I have misinterpreted the purport of your message, please disregard the that portion of my message that had to do with your rectum and your head. Hopefully meant to be funny and not directed at a certain person? Added by moderator

My Best,

GARFIELD

Garfield,

If you don't agree with something, then research it.

Find out that the person that posted this is a Site Moderator and not a whatever. (He does make up the rules in conjuction with several other board members).

Find out that you could ask a question via the Private Messages.

Ask for a clarification without the added sayings.

[quote]I would suggest that you have a friend or acquaintance take a visual check to see how far up your rectum your head is. <hr></blockquote>

Really?! not personal?!

Edward, you, sir, are an optimist!

Hi Pete,

Why didn't I think of just e-mailing to find the store. Thanks. Sometimes the obvious solution is the furthest from your mind.

To all,
I strongly agree that the name of the shop in question should have been communicated in a private e-mail rather than posted publically. Why? Read the above postings carefully. mm states that if there is something wrong with this particular Luger it would call all that he has learned from the guys over to Krausewerkes into qustion. Another posting implies that the store may be knowingly selling "bad" pistols i.e.passing off guns which have been reworked as originals, in order to make a buck. All of these ideas and a few others are associated with the name of a certain store and seller which have done nothing wrong so far as anyone knows and at worst can be accused of having made a mistake about a particular gun. A lot of people have made mistakes about particular guns, some well known experts in fact.

Seems to me the boys over to Krausewerke have acted honorably. When questioned about a certain gun they have invited other opinions. You cannot do better than that.

In the interest of full disclosure I have bought, sold and appraised guns with Krausewerke. They do not gouge on prices and have often spent their own unpaid time looking up information on particular guns for me. I have known them to be honest and when they have made mistakes to rectify them. This latter part is the true gage by which any "experts" opinion can be measured, not that they are always right but what they do when they are wrong.
tipoc

Very keen insights Tipoc... thanks for contributing.

Let's remember that so much we post and discuss are OPINIONS. Parrticularly with a subject as diverse and complex as Lugers, no one has all the facts. So take the opinions for what they are. They are not the latest word to the exclusion of any and all further comments.

In the case of Krause, or many (Not all) other dealers, they do not know more than we as a group know, and probably far less. They, and many of the other dealers, have integrity and honesty, so if one makes a mistake or does not share someone's opinion does not in itself make they a "bad guy".

Let's hear about the dealers with whom we like to do business. They may not be everyone's trusted purveyor of Lugers, but they are for some.

The problems with the Luger that I described above were (in my opinion) of the obvious type - problems that any knowledgable dealer in collectable Curios and Relics should have noticed - especially a Luger specialist. I have received private emails from other collectors concerning the reputation of this dealer and I am grateful for them. As I mentioned above, I will in the future, question a specific dealer's reputation and expertise via private channels and only refer to the dealer on this website in general, anonymous terms. Thank you all!

mm

I stopped by Krausewerkes yesterday, to put some money on a Colt, and while there looked at the two byf's in question. A second set of eyes looking at a gun often helps. I am no expert on P08's but I do have some experience looking at things that go bang when you pull the trigger and I can tell most rework jobs.
I compared the guns side to side. The location of markings on the two pieces was identical, as were the markings except for the serial number of course.[serial numbers are usually reported in a 39xx type of format, rather than an xx85 format. Cuz the first tells us more or less when a gun was made, and other info, more than the latter. 01xx would tell us that this gun was amoung the first 200 guns made in this sequence, for example, while simply recording the last 2 digits, xx85, tells us nothing. Was it 0085? or 9985? to a collector this can often make a difference. I say this, with all respect, because of the first few posts in this thread.]
Let's cut to the chase. Both guns show wear. One much more wear than the other. This latter has the regular holster and handling wear, scratches and dings from a lot of use. A good looking, working piece that is 60 years old. It comes with a full rig, holster, etc. About 60-70%, maybe less. As already mentioned it's offered in the $1300 range.
The other shows much less wear. It is the pattern of wear that one sees sometimes on cop guns when the cop only takes the gun from the holster to qualify once or twice a year and when he uses the toilet. A desk officers gun. The muzzle, side plate, take down lever, grip panels (particularly the right side, where the palm rests, as is normal for right handed users)back of the strap, front sight, top of the toggles, where the safety rides up and down, etc. All show consistant patterns of wear.
The blueing looks consistant with what I have seen in other 60 year old dip (immersion) blued guns (byf's were not rust blued). There are very slight variations in it from barrel, to toggle, to take down, etc. where the different hardnesses of the metal among other things have reacted differently. But nothing, to my eyes anyway, radical.
Overall condition of the gun is 85-90%.
The grips; right grip shows slight normal wear. Left grip shows the same pattern of wear and a flaw. This is a slight flaw and one I've seen before. These type grips were made in a mold. Some times when a finished grip is pulled from a mold some small bit of it remains behind in the mold. When the next grip is molded and than pulled loose it has a raised area to it. The left grip here has such a raised area about .700 long and .100 to .150 wide. I removed the grips (with Mike's permission) and inside they looked the same as the grips on the other byf there and on one other I recently saw. I own a P-38 with a similiar type flaw.
This gun is offered at $1200. It does not come with a full rig. It is alone.
Please excuse the length of this post. I mean no disrespect to mm by disagreeing with him on the condition of the second gun.

Reading this is why I stay with shooters. This has all the factors. First of all there is an established reputable dealer in a real business who is a Luger dealer instead of a show table or email address. Second, there are knowledgeable interested parties who are willing to pay well for a desired item. Third, the guns have been seen in person by interested parties with the invitation of the dealer in an open as you will manner. The discussion has been going here with opinions available from all over the world. And there is no consensus. No one is being a jerk, no one is going to make money, but an agreement is not in sight. Maybe that's why a lot of Lugers are locked up in safes.

RK

I think in general this discussion has proceeded with manners and respect. I would like to thank all who have participated so far for not only their knowledge and observations, but with a single exception, the manner in which it was presented.

Tipoc, what your excellent description of the pistols from your perspective has proven is that no two people look at things the exact same way.

After reading the various descriptions of these two pieces, I don't think what is being asked is out of line considering that this shop is not a pawnshop, it is a retail gun dealer who is presumed to be in business to make an honest dollar. The prices currently asked will be paid by someone who WANTS these Lugers or the price will be adjusted accordingly as time passes...

Thanks again to all.

I would jus tlike to say Thank You, to all of you who posted here as it has given me invaluable insight's in to what to look for and what to look at.
As a newbie it is just what I know I need before I pretend to know what I'm looking at.
Again a big Thanks to all of you for sharing.

Clay Sharps