P08 DWM 1913 named
 

I have an East German arsenal refinished P08 which on closer inspection was found to had an engraved name "Leutnat Bohn I.R.352" on the front grip strap. It's all matching but of course re-blued. Can any members help in identifying the former owner and his unit?

I will set up an album soon.

Thanks!
Steve

phoenix,

The first part of course is the name of the german lieutenant that was issued or purchased the pistol.

The second part should mean 352nd Infanty Regiment

I think that it might be quite difficult to trace the individual officer. If the unit is the 352nd Infantry regiment, it formed part of the 246th Infantry Division, which was destroyed at Vitebsk in June 1944. Records relating to Eastern Front units at that stage of the war are hard to come by. Another possibility might be the 352nd Artillery Regiment, which was part of the 352nd Volksgrenadier Division. This unit was listed as destroyed on the Western Front in April 1945.
There was also a 352nd Infantry Division, which opposed the Normandy landings, but I doubt if an officer would mark his pistol to the division in favour of the regiment - unless staff officers did that?
If this pistol was refurbished in East Germany then that may mean that it was taken at Vitebsk by the Russians and reissued to the East Germans after the war. That, of course, is pure speculation on my part.

I forgot to mention that my source for this information is "Hitler's Legions" by Samuel W Mitcham.

I have now posted four pictures in an album at http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergal...umName=album40

Regards,
Steve

Steve, I think others are on the wrong track with the Third Reich thing. It is most likely a Pre WWI officer purchase. I believe I have a Rangliste for 1913 in my library, if so I'll look him up if he was Prussian or Wuertemberger.

Steve, here are the results of my limited research(only able to use the 1912 Rang-Liste):
a Leutnant Bohn in the Field Artillery assigned to the Landwehrbizirk IV Berlin. Another Lt Bohn is listed in 34th regiment from Pommerania, Fusillier Regiment Queen Victoria of Sweden.

I will contact Klaus Schad, who is the master of this, and see what he can find. He no longer participates in this forum.

again

Thanks George, much appreciated! I had once tried to look up WWI Infantry Regiments to see whether this number existed. I did not come up with any results.

Regards,
Steve

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Very interesting gun. In my opinion the stamp belongs to WW I, because such a kind of script was usual in the 10's and 20's. I don't believe, that names or stamps were used in WW 2, and if they were used, not in that kind of script. Just my opinion.

Wonderful pictures, and it doesn't look reblued to me, unless it was a very careful rust blue, which is not the norm with reworks. Notice that the finish on the strawed parts is worn, but not blued. The visible springs look fire-blued, and I see no evidence of buffing. Admittedly, the finish far exceeds the grips, which are loose and very worn. They should normally look about the same for wear. Could they be non-original grips? Could someone have taken the better originals off the gun for some reason and replaced them with these? As usual, far too many questions to answer with the information at hand, but still a very nice-looking Luger, and perhaps better than thought.

I concur with those that believe that this inscription pre-dates World War I... and since it is unlikely that a government owned and issued pistol would be engraved with the name of a lowly Lieutenant, I would firthjer speculate that this was a personally purchased sidearm...

Very nice photos! Thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>I concur with those that believe that this inscription pre-dates World War I... and since it is unlikely that a government owned and issued pistol would be engraved with the name of a lowly Lieutenant, I would firthjer speculate that this was a personally purchased sidearm...
Very nice photos! Thanks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

John, it's my opinion that the pistol was military issue but engraved privately at the expense of Lt. Bohn. I base my opinion on the pistol being dated, indicative of military issue and not commercial sales. Further, the quality of the script is superb and not what I'd expect of a unit armorer.... unless he was indeed talented. Not impossible, I'm sure, but unlikely IMO.

Doubs,

Not questioning your premise, just asking more questions about the theoretical origins of this pistol.

It is my understanding that Officers did not normally get issued pistols, but were required to purchase them out of their own funds... is it possible that they could do this by purchasing a government owned pistol through reimbursement?

This would explain the military characteristics of the pistol, and the fact that it was personally owned after it's government purchase.

Do you know of other examples where military hardware of the period could be "defaced" by personal engraving? The personal engraving of government owned equipment seems to be out of character for such a professional and disciplined force as Germany's pre-WWI Army.

Your thoughts?

The Imperial German Army required all officers to buy their own equipment, including clothing, and I believe, field gear. This requirement also extended to "one year volunteers" who were destined to become officers in the reserves. I have a 1908 military marked to the warrent officer on the back strap.

John is right, the Imperial German Army was not an organization inclined to let anyone monkey around with their property.

thanks for the vote of confidence on my premise George, but I don't think the question I posed has been answered...

Would an officer of that era, buy his luger from official government stocks (which would account for the military numbering seen on this pistol), or would he have to buy it from DWM or a local gun dealer?

John, I would have to find it, but I remember reading that officers and I think senior NCO's, were allowed to buy their pistols upon change of duty or leaving the service. I will look through a couple of books tonight and see what it says.

Thank you Saxman!

The pistol has a dull black finish which is definitely not the original DWM blue. The straw parts appear to have been polished. The grips are original but mismatched. They are too worn for the pistol.

Steve

John, a couple of possibilities come to mind as to how a military Luger could bear the name of the good Lt.

Let me say up front that everything here is CONJECTURE... except that the date on the Luger designates a military issue pistol. On that I think we can agree.

While George Anderson states that all German officers were required to purchase their own equipment, there may have been options available depending upon regular service, reserve service and/or what state the soldier's unit was from. What were the regulations prior to WW1? George, can you expand the information you've given so far? (I don't know the answers and I'm hoping someone else does.)

Another thought is that officers may have been required to provide their own uniforms, boots etc., but did that extend to sidearms? It seems to me that the vast majority of Lugers captured from German officers in WW1 were military issue - had a date on the receiver - so it raises the question of how an officer could, or was required to, purchase government property and retain it as his own personal property?

Was the policy regarding sidearm issue to officers the same before, during and after WW1? Policies do have a habit of changing and what was true in WW2 may not apply to Lt. Bohn's era.

The other ideas include the purchase of the pistol from another officer or NCO who owned the pistol. Also, a presentation piece from the Lt.'s unit, comrades, men etc.

I tend to agree that the German Army is unlikely to have allowed a military issue pistol to be inscribed in the manner of the pistol in question, there's little doubt that the Luger WAS military issue at one time and that something unusual has happened here.

The inscription is unusual and it's a Luger I'd like to own.... whatever the explaination for it's existence.

I know that the requirement for officers to buy their own equipment predates the First World War. It may have been suspended during the war and probably did not continue with the advent of the Weimar Republic and the forming of the Reichswehr.

Gentleman, I have gone through lists of pre-WWI, WWI and Reichsheer Infantry Regiments. I did not come accross an 'Inf. Reg. 352'. I am not saying my records are complete as my area of research is Third Reich, however the only 352 Infantry Regiment I find is the one that formed part of the 246th Infantry Division, which was destroyed at Vitebsk in June 1944. Therefore if Lt. Bohn served in the WWII German Army one possibility is that this Luger was presented to him by his Regiment. What are your views?

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Steve

My two cents on this pistol -

Up until WWI, officers purchased their own gear, including sidearms. Since this is a 1913 pistol, we are looking at a pre-WWI piece. I had read (can't remember the source) that officers on active duty, including reserve duty, could purchase 'military' pistols through the supply chain instead of 'commercial' pistols at the local gun shop. This would make standardization of arms and ammo less of a problem for the army.

With the start of hostilities, all military arms production went to the War Department; military pistols were probably no longer available for private purchase and the commercial supply dried up. From this time on, arms were issued as required. I cannot imagine even the German army turning down an officer applicant for lack of a personal sidearm when they were hard to come by.

The engraving style is of the 1900 - 1920 or so style, but "could" have been done after WWI and through WWII, but that is highly doubtful. The army certainly did not permit the marking of army property and we have not seen many, if any, government property arms with personal identification markings.

It also does not appear to be a presentation piece. The Germans could not be that brief - there would be some flowery language describing the reason, occasion, etc.

So, all in all, i believe it was a personal pistol engraved with the owner's name and unit at the time or shortly after purchase in the 1913 - 1914 time period.

Just my humble opinion.

Phoenix, Noll lists Infantry Regiment 352 as part of the 88th Infantry Division. "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" page 157.

Bernard, your opinion of the pistol's history is as good as anyone else's and seems reasonable to me.

According to Jeff Noll's book "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" (Revised Edition) on page 157, the 352nd Infantry Regiment was part of the 88th Infantry Division. Perhaps someone has information about the role played by the 88th ID?

(I see that George beat me to it by 6 minutes!)

George, Doubs

Thanks for your input. As I said I did not have adequate information regarding WWI German Army regiments and divisions. Next step is to try and trace this Lt. Bohn from officer lists. The two Bohns identified by Georg (Leutnant Bohn in the Field Artillery assigned to the Landwehrbizirk IV Berlin and another Lt Bohn listed in 34th regiment from Pommerania, Fusillier Regiment Queen Victoria of Sweden) are possible candidates but the units are different and that's from the 1912 Rangliste. I hope we can find our man....

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Steve

I am bringing this forward as it contributes to another exchange currently taking place on the subject of officer marked pistols.