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1941 Mauser Banner Police
I thought Iâ??d take an opportunity to present a 1941 E/L Proofed Mauser Police Banner for your review. While Mauser Banners are outside my primary collecting area, this piece is excellent - both as a representative example of later Mauser production and classic Eagle L (â??E/Lâ?) proofed Police Lugers. Please note, that all information is attributed to Mr. Jan Still, and his contributing collectors as noted in his excellent work â??Third Reich Lugersâ?, without which â?? I would be lost on this variation.
As well, I have been wanting to post this treatise for some time, but I also wanted to conduct adequate research for those who may want to use this as a learning experience. Therefore, I also tried to take some very detailed photos of the areas that might be of interest. According to Mr. Still (PP147 â?? Third Reich Lugers), approximately 5,915 1941 Mauser Banner Lugers were produced. The serial number of this specific specimen is â??99 Yâ?, and would rate at 90%+ overall including one matched magazine (marked â??2â?). Overall wear is confined to the high spots from holster carry without any pitting or rust noted. I will also note that this specimen also retains its original sear safety. I must admit â?? that the â??sear safetyâ? has always held a certain fascination for me, as it was mandated for use by the Police forces. However, somewhat mysteriously, and counter-intuitive, Police Officers have a reputation of advanced powers of observation, BUT, by Third Reich Government mandate, a Police Officer might disassemble their Luger in a loaded condition â?? completely ignoring the huge extractor marking of â??GELADENâ? (â??LOADEDâ?) sticking up off the front toggle, or even NOT check the chamber before disassembly. Left Side view: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...left.thumb.jpg Right Side view: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ight.thumb.jpg Eagle L detail on Right side of the cannon. Notice the â??Lâ? to the right and under the Eagle â?? that is what is referred to as the Eagle L â?? or E/L: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...tail.thumb.jpg The Mauser â??Bannerâ? on the center toggle: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...nner.thumb.jpg The Left Side showing the Take down (blue) with the last 2 Military Digits, Sideplate and left cannon: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...tail.thumb.jpg With the sideplate removed, you can now see the digit stamps on the trigger: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...il_2.thumb.jpg The next series of photos document the Sear Safety. For those who do not have a Luger in their collection with one, here is what they include. This picture is from the Left Side, which is how it looks when issued. Note the riveted piece above the sear bar extending onto the top of the side plate: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ety1.thumb.jpg With the sideplate removed, you will see the â??pinâ? contactingâ? and retaining the sear bar from movement. Since this can not move, it can not release the firing pin: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ety2.thumb.jpg |
Continuedâ?¦.
From the top - a sear safety looks like this: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ety4.thumb.jpg And from the bottom, with the cannon off the Luger - you can clearly see how the "safety pin" retains the sear bar from movement: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ety3.thumb.jpg Top End Treatise. Here is the top end. From right to left - notice the chamber date, extractor military serialization, Banner, Center link serialization, and correct sight flycut: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb..._top.thumb.jpg Details of the correct Chamber Date and extractor serialization: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...top2.thumb.jpg Center Toggle Link - with Banner and digit serialization: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...nter.thumb.jpg Forward Toggle Link with the correct GELADEN (LOADED) stamp: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...blk2.thumb.jpg Forward Toggle Link assembled. You will notice the proofs as they appear on the forward breech: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...rblk.thumb.jpg |
Continuedâ?¦.
The firing train including the firing pin, spring and retainer. These as they are removed from the forward breech block Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...rain.thumb.jpg The middle and rear toggle links, underside. I am still researching these stamps: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ggle.thumb.jpg The barrel. Notice the witness marks, gauge and stamps on the underside near the mounting lug: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ness.thumb.jpg Front Sight Detail: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...ight.thumb.jpg Finally - the Axle pin with the correct military serialization: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...lpin.thumb.jpg Frame Moving into the frame area, this is the inside of the sideplate. Notice the digit stamp and the differences to this area then other manufactures, such as HK: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...late.thumb.jpg The thumb safety. Again, serialized on the top to the number of this Luger. The safety is in excellent condition along with the :GESICHERT stamp as noted: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...fety.thumb.jpg The frame serial number. Notice that the serial number of a Luger is NOTED WITH the letter suffix!: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...rial.thumb.jpg |
Continuedâ?¦.
The trigger guard relief. These varied from manufacturer to manufacturer, however, this is the correct relief pattern for Mauser Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...rcut.thumb.jpg The cut-out in the rear frame well. Again, a very distinct pattern to machining. Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...well.thumb.jpg The cut-out in the front of the frame well, where the locking bolt passes through. Notice the stamps. Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...well.thumb.jpg The "hold open" correctly inserted into the frame. Again, with correct military serialization. Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...open.thumb.jpg The frame lug cuts. Compared to HK, these have their own "finger_print" and are unique to Mauser: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb..._lug.thumb.jpg |
Continuedâ?¦.
Magazine The magazine is matched to this Luger and is noted as "2" (magazines were numbered "1", "2" or sometimes, "3" as issued):: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...base.thumb.jpg Magazine proofs - fxo over an Eagle 37 (E/37). On the right, noted "P.08": Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...roof.thumb.jpg Detail of the thumb checker: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...humb.thumb.jpg I hope you enjoyed this presentation. If you would like to see a slideshow of these photo's please go here: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergal...mName=bannerjd To visit the gallery, please go here: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/bannerjd |
Simply outstanding Banner John :)
Ed |
WOW!!!
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John D.,
What an excellent presentation that I am sure took considerable time to prepare. It should answer many questions for anyone interested in a Mauser Banner E/L Police luger. I did also notice the inside sideplate number does appear to be a "1". I have never figured out why Mauser did that! A couple of things you might think about is the Eagle/N proof on the front of the sight block and the fact the barrel does not have a serial number. Best Wishes, |
Hi ToggleTop (and Ed, Johnny!)...
Toggletop, and all - my thanks for the feedback! On the front of the sight base - I do have a proof (and a picture I didn't include) - but I was unsure of what it was. I'll try to post that picture in a bit, which I took - but didn't post in the passages above (I'm rebooting that server right now) Also - should the barrel be serialized? This is out of my area of collecting - so please, any critique would be well accepted and appreciated.... My thanks again! John (I'll post back in a bit with the sight base picture) |
Here is the front sight block...
Front Sight Block: Click on image to enlarge: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb..._001.thumb.jpg However - please note - the barrel is definately NOT serialized...??? Is that correct? Thanks again!!! |
John D.,
Yes, your barrel is correct without the serial number but it must have the upside down Eagle/N proof on the sight block. I did not mean to get you worrying. I just thought it was worth mentioning for other collectors! I have a 1942 Mauser Banner Police that has an Eagle 655 proof on the barrel in the normal postion you would find it in on a Mauser military pistol. The barrel also has the Eagle/N proof on the sight block as well. These pistols I love more than Kreighoff's. Just had to throw that in. Oh, how do you find the time to do all this? Beste Gr?¼sse, |
WHEW..!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> :D
Yep - since this is outside my area - I was worried that I made a mistake on this piece!!! :rolleyes: However - THANK YOU for confirmation it's as it should be..!! I *thought* it was, based on what I'd read/researched - but, well - you know..... :confused: Maybe I should just stick to Kriegs.. Heh!!!!! Oh - about the time to do all this?? I dunno - I just love collecting these... And this week, Jen and I are taking some time off "for us", so instead of my real job and the 18 hour days, we are trying to do what we want today and the next few days. So, I started this treatise about 6 months ago, but just had the time to finish and post it today. Frankly - I really enjoyed doing the research/photos and writing. Guess what I'm doing during my vacation referenced above? Hanging out on the LugerForum and going through my collection... Yea - it's sort'a like that.... My thanks again ToggleTop...!!!! John |
Great Gun John D... and great photo essay!
---Before you drop off the end of the earth on this unwarranted vacation, would you mind creating a similar photo essay for each of the rest of your Krieghoff collection? :D <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> just kidding about the second part JD, have a great and well deserved time... and thanks for the effort on your photo essay. |
John,
What kind of photo equipment are you using to get those fantastic quality images? Tom A. |
Hi John - let's see what I can - but, to do one of these takes quite a while, as you can probably guess... But - it's a lot of fun - the most difficult part is trying to figure out WHICH pics to use!!!??! After that, the write up takes some time as well, but let's see what I can do on some of the HKs, OK???
Thanks!!! Tom - my photo setup is pretty simple... All you need is a Nikon Coolpix 900, a white piece posterboard, and a sun room with skylights, oh - and a sunny day :) Seriously - I shoot them - transfer them to my computer and do a little cropping and light balancing... Sometimes I get lucky, and they turn out well. Other days - I reformat the film disk and wait for another day. Thanks!!! |
John, excellent presentation.
Tom, I also use a NIKON Coolpix. The photoshop people told me they had the best closeup capability in a lower priced camera. I mount mine on a tripod and let it shoot as slow as it needs to. If we can ever manage to be in DC on the same day I will bring my camera and tripod along and in 15 minutes show you all I know. |
John/Heinz,
I have a Nikon coolpix 5400; I just never have any light... And, those Banner police guns look interesting..I bought one, a minty one, for $125 when I was in flight school in Miserable Wells Texas in 1972. That was a *lot* of money then on a Captain's pay. Maybe I'll start going after them once I get a complete Krieghoff collection...the good thing about which is, you can't spend too much money on Kriegies on a time adjusted basis, as so few turn up FS. Tom A. Tom A. |
Hey Tom..!
I think the 5400 has the same - or better - MACRO capability then my/Heinz's Coolpix? What I found is that I had to set up a MANUAL mode, and be careful of the light source for color balance. As well, Albert (Imperial Arms) was kind enough to share his setup, as I know he uses some special lights and such - and his pictures are outstanding! Now about the Kriegs... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I think the hardest ones for you to located verified examples will be (in no order) 1938, 1944 (late), G, "36", 1945 (along with the questions on whether they really exist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), 1941.. Most of the other variations will come up more frequently. (BTW: I would have added 1943 RIG to that list of difficult ones, but - well, you know... Heh... ) BTW - well - so much for me collecting Banners - maybe I should focus on... NAW - I'M not telling you!! I don't need competition!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> |
John,
That is a nice looking Banner you have there. It appears to have the large date. I picked one up last year that has the small date with 1 matching mag. The mag, however, was unmarked except for serial number. These Banners are so interesting that I have considered changing my collecting direction. :D |
Hi Steve..!!!
My thanks! As well - I thought it was a "large" date, but to be honest, I wasn't sure - so my thanks for the added information. I was trying to compare the size of the chamber date to the pictures in Mr. Still's Third Reich Lugers, but couldn't be sure.. As well - I'd really like to see your Banner! Is there a way you can supply pictures? If so - I'd really appreciate it - and I know I'm not alone... As for Banners - don't tell anyone - but I agree with you - they are very interesting, and I just spent some time looking at a few on Simpsons website and a few others... But - don't tell Tom A. - he'll start collecting those too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> My thanks again for your comments! John |
John, a friend of mine collects Banners and has probably one of the best, if not the best, nicest collection of them I have ever seen or heard of!
:) I sure don't know much about them also, so it is a real lesson when other collectors can share bits of their collection for the edification of the rest of us! Ed |
Hey Ed..!
As you - I'd love to see pictures and posts about anyones collection. With the collectors here and on Jan's excellent site - something tells me "collecting" has come into a new era - where we all benefit. In my mind - that's what it's all about. For that, I think collecting has passed from a "passive" information paradign into an "interactive" learning experience where we can share what we think we know, and bolster our knowledge through other collectors in "real time". As a proof - look at this thread where ToggleTop, Heinz, Steve and others have added terrific bits of information and assistance on only this variation. To that point - and as I just posted back to John on Jan's site - I have a great deal of respect for those who continue to conduct their own research in both published works, and developing new research/findings which can assist all future collectors. I guess that's a "hot button" of mine, if you know what I mean? So - this is a LONG answer that says - you are right on...!!! (OH - and I just posted a new Gallery on a 1916 I'm trying to write the analysis on - again, just to share what I know and others can learn from... Again - to your point exactly....!!!) My Thanks to you! John |
John D.
Interestingly enough, I just picked up my first Banner and it's a 1941 date too. S/N is 308y and it has one matching mag (#2)and is in about the same condition as yours (99%+). The barrel on mine is serialized and the number was correctly stamped after the barrel was blued which John Pearson tells me is a good sign that it is original blue. Also, the serial number on the left receiver side is set farther forward than yours so that the E/N above is just to the right of the "308". Don't know what significance that has if any. The grips have E/655 stamps which is the same as my byf 41 and 41 Code 42 which seems typical of the period. I presume yours are marked the same. I won't ask you what you paid if you won't ask me. Suffice it to say that Banners aren't cheap now days to say the least. I've got digital photos that I'll share with you and because you are much more computer smart than I, I'll let you upload them for the membership if you're so inclined. Also, for those of you lucky enough to have access to Costanzo, there is a significant amount of Banner data starting at page 398 that is worth reading. It's out of date in some instances, but in many ways it supports and compliments the data in 3rd Reich Lugers. Regards, Lyn |
For whatever reason, not a single picture shows on this thread. I've had no problems with pictures on other threads. What's wrong?
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Hi Doubs,
Are you on a high speed connection? or dial up? Have you visited this thread before? or was this the first time. If it was the first time, and you are on a slow connection it may take a long time for all the photos to show. |
John, Doubs,
I had a similar experience when viewing the thread. I got the dreded "red X" where the pictures should be. If I placed the cursor over the "X" where the image should be - then right-click for the pop up menu, then I selected 'Show Picture' and the image would refresh. This works if you are only missing a couple of pictures. I also tried one other trick. From the link where you select the thread (either the thread index, message board index, or active topics) hold down the <ctl> key at the same time you click the link. (..This forces the browser to request ALL page content, and ignores the cache) Just a couple of things to try... Regards, Fritz. |
Didn't know that trick Fritz! Thaks bud, always learn something new every week I say, now I can let my mind go for the rest of the week!! :D
Ed |
Hey Guys..!!!
Thanks for the feedback!!! Those pictures are on my "Gallery" server - which I just upgraded, BUT - I'm not certain the OS/Web Server is optimized? One of the difficulties is - across the 3 sites that use that dedicated server, I have over 20,000 photos and 3000+ Galleries, so it's somewhat resource intensive.... So - let me take a look and see if I can improved the response for you folks.. Thanks! |
John, I'm on a cable modem and have visited this thread each time there's been an additional post.
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Hey Doubs!
So - are the pictures still showing as "X"ed out - even if you hit the "refresh" button?? Also - is the same true in the 1916 DWM thread I posted or the Krieghoff thread (that one has lots of pictures!)... If those show - and these don't - maybe I can try to "recreate" the server thumbs and see if that works? Anyway - thanks for any additional info as I try to chase this down!!! Best to you! John |
Hi Doubs - or anyone.....
I just finished patching some code on that server - both in the OS and the PHP scripts, and I'm interested how it's working for you (sorry that I've been taking that server on/off line for the past few hours..) Thanks for any feedback! John |
John D. All photos are showing up for me except the second thumbnail from the top of the page... it is taking so long that I was able to type this entire response and it still hadn't shown up on the screen. When the progress bar at the bottom of the browser indicated that nothing else was being downloaded, I checked again, and all I had in that position was the red-x. When I right Clicked on it and chose 'show picture', the photo was IMMMEDIATELY shown with no additional downloading.
I hope this helps... |
I had a question about the production rate for the banner police Mausers that were being discussed here. I have the exact same Luger, a Mauser 1941 large date police issue serial number 565. It has a matching number 2 magazine. How many Lugers would have been produced on a daily basis in 1941?
TJ |
Hello John,
Very nice pistol you have there !! And a fabulous presentation...... A question: can you put a production date on this #99 Y pistol ?? ``Y`` Block Banners started in 1941 then continued in 1942. Photo shows 2 ``Y`` Block 42 dated Banners.... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn3322.jpg In trying to establish the production date of those....only thing I'm able to come up with is that one is ``early``, the other one ``late`` I know it sounds cheap but I dont have more info :( Both Police issue with Sear Safeties.....Top pistol has a #1 matching mag ( and a Otto Sindel holster !! )Bottom one is one of my ``favorites``..... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn3318.jpg Both have the E/N upside down proof on the front sight base....( have to admit I do like those ``muzzle shots photos``...) http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn3323.jpg Both being III Reich Lugers, they fall into my main area of collecting...... MARK :) |
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