General Observations
 

Hi,
With interest I've watched the discussion on the 1914 Erfurt and some of the other Lugers in the past few weeks and would like to give some general observations on collecting in 2002.

First, don't believe any story that is told to you, and especially if you didn't get it directly from the vet yourself. Everyone has a story and every piece is a direct vet purchase and came from an officier, isn't it??

Next, in this day and age, look at each piece as if it is a fake, or counterfiet, and be pleasantly surprised it you find an original piece. Half of the stuff you see at shows anymore has been messed with, reblued, restrawed, touched up, or just plain made. People can make anything these days, and they do. There are literally thousands of shooters and imports that can be bought cheap and made into any variation for a nice profit. Remember that not everyone does this for the pure joy, and there are a lot of bad apples out there that just want to make some fast and easy money. I just don't think most of you realize just how many messed with Lugers there are out there, and the extent some will go to make a nice profit.

And last, do not make excuses or try to justify stuff that is out of the ordinary or doesn't fit into the known variations. As collectors we can not play "what if". There are known characteristics that each variation has and if they differ from these, then beware. By trying to justify this you are just going to get taken. You are not only giving yourself false hopes, but giving others false hopes also. Look at all the "unusual" variations that are showing up now. Collectors have been looking at collections for a lot of years and recording information and that is why it is highly unusual to find variations that are out of the known examples. One has to be very, very careful before he accepts any of these as being original, as chances are, especially in 2002, with all the bogus stuff floating around, that they are not original. -- The fakers and refinishers are getting better and better and the guys who can tell what is what are getting fewer and fewer. So, do your homework, find a friend in your area to look at stuff with you, look at each others stuff and compare finishes and stuff, and read. Reading is good, but you need hands on experience and that is why you have to share stuff with fellow collectors and shooters to see what is what. Ask questions and don't be in a hurry.

Good collecting --

Bill
Excellent post! Every collector on this form should read it. Its the simple truth and it has gotten much worse in the last 5 years.
Jan C. Still

Bill, I think the problem is; many of us like to read into it. Especially if it is ours, we WANT toooo bad, to prove it is legit and worth the money we spent or of course more than we spent, [img]biggrin.gif[/img] .

Good advice, smart too, thanks, [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ed:

Problem with that attitude is, aside and apart from the fact that you are getting taken, is that you provide fertile ground onto which the fakers can sow their wares.

Good Hunting,

Hey Garfield, I'm not the one with the attitude~! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Heh, heh.

That is why it pays to be Luger broke most of the time and to look for shooters and the occassional good one from guys you can trust and get a return policy on. [img]smile.gif[/img]

My apologises, Ed:

I meant "you" as in the all-incompassing sense.

Bill, nice post. I totally agree!! Books are great, but dirty fingers are necessary! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

MauserLuger, will you be at the Butte gun show on Friday the 6th of Sept. We hope to make it as we'll be heading home from a buffalo hunt on the Flying D ranch....would like to meet you there if possible.

The innate desire to rationalize is the Achilles heel of all collectors and should be resisted with great tenacity.

Those who post their personal rationalizations in a misguided effort to support the products of unethical boosters and their dealers do a great disservice to the collecting community and especially to newer collectors.

Just my $0.02 as a realtive newcomer who has been burned more than once. Ouch. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

AMEN!...

Let's stop playing the 'what if' or 'could this happen' when the piece is WRONG! I have found that the people who play this game already own the gun and are trying to validate their purchase!

They will end up 'defending' it as long as they own it!

Orv Reichert

[quote] The innate desire to rationalize is the Achilles heel of all collectors <hr></blockquote>

In the field trial fraternity the phrase is "kennel blindness". (no explaination needed)

Whoa here, are you guys trying to tell me that my pristine 1902 Simpson/Suhl with the deaths head on the chamber and with all matching numbers including two magazines is not an original? I beg to differ with you, I bought it from the widow of a war vetran who personally brought it back with him from the civil war, and I got the papers to prove it!! You guys don't know Jack!!!!!!

[quote]a war vetran who personally brought it back with him from the civil war <hr></blockquote>

Herb, I wish I knew you better, so I would know if laughter is appropriate.

If you are serious, then, by G--, I'm with you. If this is a joke, then Ha! Ha! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Wes, I'm afraid that Herb is off of his medication again...

[quote] pristine 1902 Simpson/Suhl with the deaths head on the chamber and with all matching numbers <hr></blockquote>

Everyone knows that the deaths heads are on the 1901 Erfurt / Mauser barreled 5 inchers.

My 5-incher must be special, its the rare varient without a Death's Head.

--Dwight

Cool Dwight;

I've got some gold from the Rhine River to trade for it. At least its shiny, I'm sure it must be gold! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Herb - - - -

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Luke

I have a 1940 Mauser that's all matching except for the parts that don't match.

I got a 1945 Mauser with all unmatched parts, is it worth more than one with all matching parts? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Hugh and Unspellable,

In reality, finding totally unmatched guns is very rare. Hugh&lt; I am sure if you look close enough, two or three numbers WILL unfortunanately match, thus only bringing the price up a few cents. Totatally unmatched guns are hard to find. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Disclaimer to new members, please don't unmatch your Lugers or try this at home.

Disclaimer to newcomers:

You should take this entire message thread with a POUND of salt... Totally disregard anything that even remotely resembles a fact in this thread except for the first two posts by Mauserlugers and Jan C. Still.

[img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> you guys are a riot sometimes <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Pfeh. Remember that gun show price list that was posted awhile back for the fake die stamp maker? Well, I got a fully matching Ruger 10/22, made in 1942 with Waffen-SS death’s heads stamped on the receiver, barrel and stock. It also has the ultra rare 5150 waffenamp with the Nazi eagle that has a monkey flying out of its butt. I got capture papers that came with it (laser printed no less) that prove this 10/22 was used by Martin Bormann for plinking in the backyard of the Obersalzberg. Off to Auction Arms. Ker-shing!

Gol-dang-it Ed U wuz rite! The number stamped on the cartridge follower in the magazine is the same as the one on the firing pin retainer!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

Heydrich,

Thet rifle ought to bring at least $12,000 on AA or GB! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

[quote]Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong> [img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> you guys are a riot sometimes <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

John,

I do, in fact, have a Luger with a 5" barrel. Also, it does not have a Death's Head--an oversight on my part, I suppose, not to have it engraved so while Thor was working on it [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

But, you are right about the caution to respect the words of Mauserlugers and Jan before the discussion devolved into chaos.

--Dwight

To all,
If I can get serious for a moment there is a very good article in the current issue of Man at Arms entitled A collectors guide to Spotting Luger Restorstions by Dave Norin. Let me quote him "It is absolutely possible to take a gun with virtually no finish, lots of rust and pits, a bent-in frame and some file marks on it, and restore it to a condition that would fool most experts. The experts that won't be fooled are the one who know what to look for." Beware!

Carl,
Please post vast portions of the article.

Wes,
I'm sorry but I do not have a scanner. The magazine can be purchased at some newsstands that carry gun magazines. It is volume 24, number 4, 2002. This is the NRA journal for the American Arms Collector. Excellent reference magazine for collectors of all types of weapons.
Carl

I would gladly pay for the copying and postage if anyone having a copy of this magazine would send a copy of this article to me.

Thanks,

I would too, in fact I'll pay five cents more than Garfield [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, I need to subscribe to Man At Arms, but in the mean time, I would like a copy also. This sounds like great information.

Fellows, I can copy the article and save it in both Adobe Acrobat (pdf) format or Microsoft Word. The pdf format is the smaller file of the two.

I won't be able to do anything until tomorrow sometime and I want to experiment a little to see if I can save the pictures so they have better resolution than the line art setting gives.

Send me a private e-mail with your e-mail address and, when I get it copied, I'll attach the files and send them to you.

Doubs,
I do not know that I have your email address and would appreciate a copy of the article.

Garfield, Ed, Wes, et all,
E-mail me at duffy@duffystavern.com with your mailing address and I will gladly send you a copy by snail mail. I will be out of town for the weekend, so give me a few days. I get into several other areas of collecting and have seen examples of what can be done given enough money and time. With modern technology virtually anything is possible. As was said on Hill Street Blues "be carefull out there". If you are a beginner get yourself a darn good mentor and study everything you can find.
Best collecting to all, Carl

To everyone who requested a copy of the article, it's been sent in three separate e-mails because there are eight pages and each is a sizable file. I'm at work and had to use Microsoft Word to save it. The pictures aren't the best but I'll try later to scan them in a jpg format and send them again. The OCR program doesn't do well with pictures and text together unless I use grayscale which increases the file size to a monster!

Received my copies and wish to thank you, Doubs.

Doubs,

Received my copy. Thank you.

This article should be read and re-read by every new collector. Wish I had known all this a couple of years ago.

Thanks again,
Luke

Hay everyone
First post, I have 8 Lugers, had nothing to do one day, took them all apart, put them in a pile, then proceded to put them all back together, some look real funny, did I do good?
John(Wilber) <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Ya'll remember the Johnny Cash song where he worked in Detroit and and put a car together by stealing parts from the line over 10 years? Just keep the best looking ones of those eight Lugers.
RK