BYF 42 vet bring back?
 

I picked up a BYF42 about 13 years ago at a gun store the man had it for sale for a lady at 450.00 He told me it was a vet bring back.I ask him if he would take 400.00 he said he would ask. She came back with 425.00 I told him i would take it and ask him to ask her if she could give me any info on the pistol She said her husband was in Europe in the Army brought 2 Lugers back won one in a poker game coming back the other he picked up in Europe He sold the one Luger(Poker game luger) for a riding lawn mower in the 60's But wanted to keep the one he picked up which I bought.She said he was proud of the pistol and that is all she knew. She did not want any guns in the house and wanted this one sold since her husband had pass away. I would like to post pictures But do not know how? It is a BYF42 serial # 69xxh wood grips blueing seems right light pitting on one side but most of the blueing is there.My question is about what month in 42 was this gun made? And about what value does this gun have?...I know pictures would help if i could send someone some pictures I would be glad too. Since I have bought other vet bring back that have not been correct I would like to know if this one is right. Atleast i did not hear the gun was picked up from a dead nazi officer which is what i get all the time when i ask for history of a gun

thanks
th

Pictures added by EBT
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/ek_1_10.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/ek_2_6.jpg

Bigger pictures, so others could judge on if it has been messed with, EBT
Luger1
Luger1b
Luger1c

A quick glance at Jans 3rd Reich book shows me that 113,000 were made that year, so if you average that each group of serial numbers is 10,000, and h is the 9th grouping (no letter, a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h), and it says that j is not used, then k, l, m and production ended in the n block late in 42. So I would imagine that h is middle of the year, probably later than sooner?

Others can probably give you a better guess?

If you said about 10,000 per month, then it would be around September.

Interesting to speculate about what month a pistol might have been made but no matter how you calculate it, perhaps the frame was made in a large batch and other parts made in another month and the whole assembled at a later date. But TH, why would you care? Just idle curiosity or some other theory? Inquiring minds want to know!

On the captured Luger coming off of a dead officer, There is an interesting photo on Ebay of a WW1 officer posing for a studio photo and indeed he is wearing a Luger!

Hard to give this pistol a value but I would guess from what I see, $800.00 to $1200,00 depending on many things. Without a close inspection it would be difficult to determine.

Jerry Burney

Why the month I am just curious I thought they might have a record of that I really guess i should have ask early, mid or late 42... I Like to find out everything i can about the pistol I own. And i know there were pistols taken off of dead nazi officers I have heard that story all of the time though I feel like a good deal of the vet bring backs were at the end of the war. I have talked with alot of vets and just about all of them picked them up at the end of the war..There reason was if they picked it up they would have to carry it But I am sure there was alot of pistols taken off of officers. thanks for the post and your help Do you repair Luger holster?

th

th,

Jerry Burney won't toot his own horn but he is probably the best Luger holster restoration expert on the planet. He can build a luger holster from scratch.

While it makes a better story to have taken a Luger from "a Nazi officer," most souvenir bring-backs were probably picked up off the ground or from piles of turned in weapons.

Besides, weren't more Lugers issued to support units and machine gun crews anyway? Didn't officers prefer smaller Pistolen?

Thanks I have a luger holster that is probally beyond repaired.. the whole top was cut off(missing) I think the GI who brought the holster back was trying to make a 45cal holster(are who knows what he was thinking)It might be cheaper to just find another holster I know that they(holsters) are expensive what price do they run and is this holster worth messing with? Or just leave it alone?

Send or email good photographs of the holster to Lugerholsterrepair and he can tell you if it is worth salvaging...

John thanks i sent him some pic the top flap is missing and one strap on back is missing the holster is dated 1940 it is a HANSCROMER NEU-UUM waffenampt(sp) 788 very clear markings thanks again

T.H.,fellow forum member Arron points out a pair of black bakelite grips that would go good with your pistol. I have #6229H and it has the bakelite grips that match the mag bottom. If you would like to see them go to luger classified. My thanks to Arron.

th:

Either wood or black bakelite grips would be proper on your byf 42. If you remove the grips, be very careful when you remove the left grip as it is very easy to to chip the upper rear corner behind th safet. The grips should, but not always, have an eagle/135 stamp on them and, perhaps, the last 2 digets of the serial #. Again, the grips were not always stamped. If there is an eagle acceptance stamp that is not 135 or numbers that do not match the last two digets of the serial # on your gun, the grips were not issued with your pistol and are replace ments. If they are stamped with only a 42 then the are, no doubt, armourors(sp) replacements.

G.W. Gill & Garfeild thanks I always like the black grips better over the wood..but if my grips are correct I want to keep these.Since that is what it came with. I did take them off(grips) and there was nothing marked in them they were plain I wanted to ask you about this Black Widow (black grips)that I have heard about.. Were they issed to some certain troops are is that something made up...did the BYF42 being the last year go to any special units are is that made up too. Thanks and let me know if my grips are correct. I think Garfield, you said that they were if they had no marks on them at all...again thanks

Look very closely at the backs of those grips as there is a good chance there is a faint Eagle/135 inspection stamp AND the last two digits of the pistol serial number--these grips were fitted uniquely to each pistol and you don't want to switch original grips.

The black plastic grips were not issued to special units. In fact, the nickname "black widow" is an American marketing invention I am told originated in the 1960s. To the Germans, these were good manufacturing replacements for wood grips and probably saved money. Shortcuts in mag bottoms and grips as well as metal finishing were pursued to speed and cheapen production.

The very last lugers from regular production (byf42's) were delivered to Portugal as best as anyone can tell--about 4000 of the very last lugers.

Actual use of lugers was usually by front-line personnel (9mm is a combat caliber) for whom rifles were too cumbersome to carry--motorcycle messengers, combat police, machine gunners, anti-tank gunners, group leaders, and paratroopers. Officers carried them but if not in front line duty most officers appear in photos with 7.65 pistols.

LP08 thanks I did look very closely there is no marks under the grips whatsoever If they are plain is that not correct? were these replacement grips? the fit on my grips seems perfect and they are well made.Let me know because i will probally buy the black grips on ebay if my are not to be on this P08

th,

The grips on your "byf" 42 sound like they are correct. The wood grips were usually not numbered to the pistol and most did not have the Waffenamt Stamp on them. At this time, with the Luger goinf our of full scale production, i assume they saved time not nmbering or checking the grips.

Either the wood grips that you have, or a set of Original plastic grips would be appropriate for your pistol.

Marvin

Hi Marvin,
Your reply: "The wood grips were usually not numbered to the pistol and most did not have the Waffenamt Stamp on them. At this time, with the Luger goinf our of full scale production, i assume they saved time not nmbering or checking the grips," IS NOT CORRECT!

I do not know where you got your information, but your statement is totally false. It is in fact just reversed. Almost all of the byf 42's have the last two digits on the inside of the wood grips and almost all of them have the eagle 135 acceptance proof. In fact, it would be the exception to find an original issued byf 42 rig that did not have the last two digits and the eagle 135 proof on them, or at least one of them. Each year and variation are different and one has to consider each seperately.

Data sheets show this to be the case as do collectors that collect these variations. It must be very confusing for the new collectors to post here and get numerous somewhat different answers as they do not know what to accept and what not to. Anyway, use the information, or reject it, (as I never wrote a book, and I'm not in Germany and that seems to be the requirement to have any information accepted anymore), but don't go by everything that is printed in a book. Good collecting!

th:

Personally, I would not replace your wooden grips. They look right, fit your pistol and they came with it. While they may be the exception to the rule that byf42 grips usually have the last two digets of the serial # and, or, a E/135 stamped on the inside, there are exceptions to the rule. Look on the inside of the grips along the edges and compare the pressure marks left by the grip straps and oil. If these are there and match up, those grips have been on a long time. It is, of course, your pistol, however, IMHO, it is better to have the original equipment on your pistol than a re[placement just because it looks nice. You also run the risk that the black plastic replacements will not be original.

Marvin:

Don't understand what you mean by, "saved time not....Checkering the grips."? Never seen a luger issued w/o checkered grips.

Each byf42 I have owned had the s/n 2-digits on the reverse of the grips, same for byf41's. It is possible your grips are later replacements or were installed without s/n's. Lots of things are possible but from the appearance in the photo and practice in 1942, there is no evidence to suggest these are anything other than the factory original grips. If you wish to shoot this luger, you should substitute non-historic grips to protect these originals. The original grips are part of the factory original parts and, if damaged (easy to do if you shoot this), the gun's value will decline precipitously and be unrecoverable.

There does seem to be a lot of misinformation shared on the internet though most of it is well-intentioned. I encourage people who post information to state the support for their claims, cite reference publications, or offer appropriate cautions when making guesses. It is very confusing to new collectors to hear that grips are sn'd, not sn'd, black bakelite, wood, and whatever else. On Tuco's forum, recently, a new luger collector asked if his 1917 luger was original and valuable and was told it should have waffen stamps of the form "WaNxxx" and that it should not have gone through WW2 without getting nazi-stamped and that the military magazines should be marked "1" or "2". Each of those statements is incorrect but how can a new collector know this. It turns out the pistol was a police luger and DID have a correct "2" marked police magazine and, of course, was not marked with WW2-era waffen stamps. He had a nice original WW1 pistol that had gone on to WW2-era police use. If he paid attention to the internet comments, he might have thought he had some garage gunsmith pistol.

Help out the new people with good information.

Thanks for all the help from all of you I know my father-in law brought home a G43 made by Walther Everyone said that the correct handguard was made out of wood only NO Durfol plastic handguards go on a walther only wood....Well his is plastic I know without a dought that is how that G43 came back he did not switch them. He is still alive today and he will tell you that is how he picked it up in Europe The grips on this pistol look like they have been on a long time: In fact I do not think they have been removed since they left the factory. The lady I bought it from said that her husband never fired the gun had it put up and never got it out...I guess it will be a mystery if lugers were stamp or not...Just curious has anyone ever heard of them not being numbered?

I just read over the posts again I want to apolgize if i have cause any problems or stir things up a bit just trying to see if i should buy the black grips on ebay...i will be glad to take any pic's of the inside of the grips if that will help to determine if my grips are corect...again thanks

[quote]Originally posted by th:
<strong>I just read over the posts again I want to apolgize if i have cause any problems or stir things up a bit just trying to see if i should buy the black grips on ebay...i will be glad to take any pic's of the inside of the grips if that will help to determine if my grips are corect...again thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>

th, you've done nothing except ask questions that you want answers for. This forum is about Luger information and sometimes the questions receive conflicting answers. Then, the true information usually comes out through discussions of the sort that have taken place here. (Even the top experts disagree on some points!)

So, if anything, you've made others aware of what should normally be found on the inside of byf42 grips. No need to apolgize for that!

Bill,

You know, you have so much information stored in your "Data Sheets" it would be great if they were available to read, but then again, you can't believe everything you read. Yes, My main source is books written by KNOWN authorities, and others from over the world.

th:

I think that you are agonizing unnecessarily over this point.

Look at it this way; If you buy the black plastics that are on eBay you know, with out a doubt, that they are not origial to your gun! I will repeat some of what that has already been said as you seem to have missed it. Wooden grips are proper for a byf 42, these grips were on your luger, according to your account, when the GI picked it up. They fit the pistol. They look to be in nice shape and match the overall condition of your pistol. While #s and Wa's are usually found on the grips of this time frame such is not always the case. I have seen lugers with wooden grips that were not numbered or Wampt and, IMO, thought them to be original to that gun. I am certain that there are others that would agree that the sole fact that the grips are not marked with such marks does not mean that the grips were not original to that pistol. Given the fact that your grips are not numbered, the only person that could tell you whether your present grips were installed on your pistol when it left the factory would be the person that did it. This would be true even if your grips were only Wampt. Now you will have to make up your mind as to what you want on your pistol, the ones that came with it or something that you picked up off ebay. Shouldn't be a difficult decision, really.

T.H., Stick around, this is good info. The kind of exchange of opinions we all learn from. There really are true experts here with us. Sometimes they step in and straighten things out when we get a little off track in our learning experience. I am not one of the experts.

Earlier I mentioned the grips on EBAY. I would like to say I don't know the seller, or Aaron, who was nice enough to point them out. I just thought they would go good with your pistol. I looked at the supersized pics and compared the checkering lines starting and ending points with my grips and they seam to be identical. I have a 42BYF #6229H that was made within a day or two of yours. When I learn to operate this camera I am going to contribute to the study on grips the forum is undertaking. I just think those grips would look good on your pistol. They could be fakes but gut instinct tells me they arn't. Consensus seems that you could buy grips to protect yours.

Bill Munis
You might be interested in a post by Tom A. under General Discussion titled Buy Books, Read And Study

"It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework."

Then follow the thread down a few posts to see the exact problem that Tom A. was discussing repeated.

Its somewhat similar to the problem that you expressed:

"It must be very confusing for the new collectors to post here and get numerous somewhat different answers as they do not know what to accept and what not to."

One thing is clear, if the poster doesnt know the answer let the reader know that you are speculating. Give the source or explain the basis of your imformation.
Jan

I would imagine part of the problem is the wide range of manufacturers and so many years the Luger was made.

DWM
Mauser
Simpson
Kreighoff
Mauser

and then under such a wide range of gov'ts, imperial, nazi, commercial, each with their own rules and concerns.

Wouldn't this cause major problems and variations????

Well when i started this post out I was more concern about the blueing on the gun which is most of the times gets messed with. I appreciate all of the advice but on this one I will probally go with Garfeild. The fit on the grips is Excellent+ what workmanship. This might help shed some more answers to if they are the correct grips:- on the metal on the pistol ( the metal where the grips lay)there is very, very old what looks like dried grease ( it will come off)this old grease has been sealed against the wood of the grips for so long it has went into the wood of the grips makeing it black. I know they probably are to be numbered to the gun But i know thinks happen in factories I saw a P38 last week that had the code printed upside down Now I know that is not correct but things do happen. If they are replacement grips since they are plain Who made plain grips? Thanks I hope someone can answer the question who made the grips if they did not leave a code behind. I think it was some grips that just did not get marked at the factory. again I am new to all this but enjoy all of the input

T.H., Garfield and Still are the ones to listen to. As Still points out , you have to hit the books, or your going to miss your mark. I think the professors have steppped in!.

I'd like to join you in inquiring about the variations of grips used in the last issues to the german troops. I don't have access to a good reference at the moment.

T.H., I hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread, the grip discussion really intrigues me.

T.H.,. LPO8,Dubs and Marvin also are informed members that I missed mentioning. But I believe Jan Still hit the mark!

G.W.,
Thanks for the vote of confidence! Since you apparently do not feel I am informed or one of the members to listen to, I doubt you will put any value on my answer to your or th's question, but I will try to answer it anyway.

Jan Still called me this evening to visit about what has been happening on the forum with all the incorrect answers, and there are a lot of questions being answered wrong. The main thing is making excuses to justify things.

In regard to your question about the Luger grips of late war manufacture, they were just as I stated ealier. Namely, the byf 42's were almost always numbered with the last two digits and had the E/135 proof. A few just had the E/135 proof only. The exception would be to find a completely blank pair at this time. It is possible, -- yes -- but not many. I had byf 42 1766 H at one time with wood grips, 66 inside and an E/135.

As mentioned ealier, each year and variation has different grip markings and has to be considered seperately. For instance, the 1936 S/42's are mostly blank with a very few numbered with the last two digits. The 1939 42's are mostly blank or blank with a E/655, and again very few are numbered to the gun. The 1939 S/42 are almost all numbered to the gun. So each year and variation have there own characteristics and you can not just lump them all together with a general conclusion. Why is it that some are numbered and some are only proofed and still others are completely blank? -- I have no answer and I doubt that anyone does, but the recorded facts are the facts. One explanation would be that the Lugers were assembled in certain batches of say 100 or so and that worker or inspector marked his and others did not. That is only a guess. I have well over 100 Mauser military Lugers and there are certain patterns that can be followed.

The end of Luger production had nothing what so ever to do with blank grips on military models, as there was a contract and inspectors and a certain standard that had to be met. 1942 was not the end of the war, but only the end of Luger production. The Germans were very strict on standards and the quality of fit on the byf 42's is still very good as they were hand fitted to that specific Luger. There are certain guides, or rules, or characteristics that we as collectors have to go by and we know this by looking at examples and recording what we see. You can make excuses for just about anything and say that there are exceptions to every rule, but we as collectors can not do that. Things are a certain way and if they vary from that certain known way, then one has to be leary. In this case, it would be the exception to have a byf 42 with completly blank wood grips. It would be the exception to have a rear connecting pin that was blank. It would be the exception for the holdopen or firing pin to be blank. One can make excuses for all of them being that way as they came directly from the vet, but they are still not as found on as issued variations. And recorded information on original as issued Lugers and rigs is how we learn what went where and what went with what, and leads to books being published.

On the particular byf 42 discussed in the beginning of this thread, I would guess that if they are the original grips that you will find a very faint E/135 on the inside of the grips. These are sometimes very, very hard to see and you need a glass to find them.

Hope this helps you understand the Lugers grips somewhat better. Good collecting.

Bill, I copied that info down!

I am supposed to go to PR sometime this next month, so I am unsure if I'll make it to your house soon!

I can't think of anyone else that knows as much about Mausers, [img]smile.gif[/img] So, the new guys, they just don't know, as I am learning also. I talked to Jan the other day also, we had a really nice conversation, I wouldn't let him off of the phone! Those unit marked guns are my next look, really interest me, just money and time, right?

Anyway, glad to see you here Bill, we do listen to you guys, lots of experts and others too on this forum!

Take care, Ed

G.W.
I consider Bill Munis a world class Luger expert. I purchased most of my Lugers prior to the period of extensive faking. Bill has had to learn how to avoid bad lugers during a period of extensive faking. Bill is one of the first persons that I would ask for advise on what to look for or avoid in purchasing lugers today.
Jan

Marvin:

Which of the "KNOWN authorities" that your read stated that most byf 42 wooden grips are not numbered to the gun nor are most acceptance stamped?

Thank you

I did get the glass out and a bright light ( I study it for a half hour)I still do not see any marks I sent Edward a pic of the inside of the grips you can see where the dried grease is on the metal and where the grips had been on so long it has turn the grips black on the edges(due to grease)it matches perfectly to the dried grease. These grips have been on for a long time . If they were replacement grips how could both of them have been replaced with non marked grips. What are the chance of both grips needing to be replaced? Just curious is there anyone else that has non marked grips on there BYF42?

Added by EBT:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/ek_1_123.jpg

and another of the entire grip.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/ek_1_12b.jpg

(in e-mails from Tom, he really is curious as to why his grips, which appear to be original don't have markings and not trying to raise a fuss, [img]smile.gif[/img] ).
From Ed, is it likely they are armorer replacements?

Hi th,
Charlie Kenyon said, "it is what it is". If the fit of your grips is excellent, then leave them alone. (They shouldn't fit sloppy and the mesh at the front grips straps should not protrude.) The fit will tell you a lot if the grips have been replaced as well as the dried grease marks on both the frame and the grips.

The appearance of those grips suggests they have long been a part of that luger. They look original and nice. Nothing at all to be concerned about. Despite some strong rules for lugers, there are many many small exceptions and unmarked grips can easily represent a small exception or wartime replacement set. They are fine as is--no reason at all to replace them and assure the grips are non-original.

Gentlemen,
Just got home and read the last few threads. I deserved that chastisement. I'm pretty good at putting my foot in my mouth at times.

Bill, I have the utmost respect for your opinion and enjoy learning from your posts. If my posts conveyed anything else it was unintentional.

T.H., I apologize again for jumping in on your thread and then confusing things.