42/1939s....Is this a coincidence?
 

Just wanted to ask if anyone else has noticed mismatched/unnumbered rear axel pins on the standard military issue 1939 P08. In my case I think I have seen 2 very nice all original 1939s that had either a mismatch, or an unnumbered one(no other parts were mismatched).

Thor also has a beauty with the same issue. So thats 3 in the last, lets say, 4 years that I have noticed. Now is this simply a co-inkey-dink, or did the rear axel pin guy/gal have a bad day/s at the office in 1939? Anyone else ever notice this?

Would love to hear your comments. Thanks -stuart

Is it possible that it's just the result of in service repair ?

Stu, that would be my guess. Armor specials would provide the correct pin size, but without the number. Most armorers pins were graded to size. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hi sshultz,

My 1939 s/42, SN 6394r, is all-matching except for 2 un-numbered parts. Both the extractor and the toggle rear axle are unstamped. No numbers. I bought the gun from Ralph Shattuck in "mint" condition and the bluing on the extractor is very definitely identical to the receiver and toggle. For some reason these parts were never stamped on the original gun. I assumed this error was because this gun is in the transition between s/42 and 42 codes. I figure they were just rushing things and these parts didn't get stamped.

On the other hand, the germans are so teutonically efficient, it is very curious that these parts did not get stamped.

To assist your research -- yes my 1939 has unnumbered parts.

One of the reasons there are so many 1911s with mismatched receivers & slides is the great rebuilds in the early 40s. Since the referenced guns are 39s and the parts are in wear areas replacement at the company armorer level is a possibilty.

RK

I know of an instance in a far away place in 1969 where a Remington Rand .45 got a Colt slide because it looked cooler. I fired it yesterday-did some trigger work on it a few years ago-nice shooter.

Hi To All! I dug out my Mauser P.08's and.... All three had the rear pins numbered to the gun... a 1937, S/42 & two 1939's, 42... FWIW....till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

I checked my 1939 "S/42", "42", & "Police Banner" for stamps and all three have the rear pin numbered to the pistol. I also checked my 1938s, and 1940s and they also had the numbered rear pim.

Marvin

I believe that all Mauser built Lugers, started life with a main toggle pin numbered to the pistol. If they were worn, lost, etc., they were replaced with either another numbered pin (not necessarily the correct number) or a Armors unnumbered pin. Other items that were prone to damage were the grips, firing pin, extractor and ejector. All except the ejector were originally numbered to the pistol. I'm not positive about late byf42 grips, early ones were numbered. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

I'm going to have to have someone experienced look over my 1939 s/42. The extractor is not stamped but the bluing looks identical to the rest of the gun. It would be hard for me to believe the extractor was blued separately from the rest of the gun.

Being a newbie, I can't yet determine from Ted's "look at it in the bright light of day" test that the bluing was original. As I bought the gun from Ralph in "mint original" condition, I assume the blueing is original. If the gun was re-worked and re-blued, I would expect the extractor to have the "s42" replacement stamp, which is not the case. Neither the extractor nor the toggle rear axle pin is stamped.

I attribute the lack of stamping to the transition period during which the gun was produced. If the ever-efficient Germans did in fact stamp every small part on the gun, then I don't have a ready explanation why neither the extractor nor toggle axle are stamped.

Ah, the plot thickens!

Eratta: typo error in my 1st post above.

SN 6394r is incorrect. The correct SN is 6294r.

Thank you,

The Managment...

Jimbo,
Changing the toggle marking from the S/42 to 42 code would not have required a transition period in which standard markings were somehow left off.

Jimbo, I have a Mauser Armorers Replacement extractor in a rust blued Luger. The difference is obvious. When I compare it to any Salt Blued Mauser, that hasn't turned plum colored, I can't tell the difference. The extractor is unmarked.

Small German replacement parts were not marked with the makers code...only the MAJOR parts.

You should never base an evaluation/explanation on what a seller said!...verify!..or, someday, [when you go to sell it]...you will get a real lesson in economics.

on the Colt 1911's...offtopic:

When I was a supply Sgt in a Basic training unit..[Camp Roberts 1951] the troops used to take the .45s and take them apart, putting parts in a big pile.

They then reassembled them without any regard to what gun they came off of?...who cared, they were all interchangeable, right?

Orv Reichert
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> :

I think unumbered toggle pins are fairly common in Lugers. Seems like I read this somewhere in one of Jan"s books. I am sure Ralph would not sell a gun like this if it wasn"t proper.
Lonnie

ALL -- I repeat, ALL -- the rear toggle pins were numbered with the last two digits on all of the military Mausers. Come on guys, this is basic stuff here. If it isn't numbered, it isn't correct and it isn't original, plain and simple. Stop making excuses for stuff that isn't correct, and stop playing the "what if game"! -- Bill Munis --

What about the grip screws?

RK

RK; grip screws on most early Erfurts were proofed, but Mausers never were.
Lonnie

[quote]Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
<strong>RK; grip screws on most early Erfurts were proofed, but Mausers never were. Lonnie</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just an aside but Erfurt followed military directives concerning the inspection stamps on various small parts. DWM, OTOH, didn't follow military directives and only inspection stamped the parts they deemed necessary. To me, it makes the Erfurt Lugers more appealing. I'm sure others admire the DWM pistols for the lack of markings.

Ok, here's the grenade. If the initially referenced gun does not have a matching toggle pin and extractor but mint in all other factors, is it deemed mint/matching and can it be presented as such for a purchaser? Catch.

RK

OK RK, I'll Catch!! What is that old phrase? Not only no, but HELL no! But then, that's just my opinion! To me mint implys just the way it left the factory, with no wear. I have seen very few Lugers with no wear, but they do exist. Even "near mint" still implys all matching, to me!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Rember guys, do your research! Each manufacture is different and each time frame is different. For instance, DWM and Erfurt are different than Mauser on the rear connecting pins being numbered. Imperial Lugers were NOT originally numbered. Mauser military variations were ALL numbered. You can not lump all Lugers together and just make a general conclusion. Same with the grip screws and ect. -- Bill

Never pay all matching price for something that is all matching...except. The more excepts, the lower the price and the lower the demand when you get ready to sell it.

Hello Bill Munis,

You know, maybe I made a mistake and this gun is not all original. The extractor and toggle rear axle are not stamped. But there are so many unexpected Luger variations out there such as the out-of-sequence 1940 s/42 and the 42-42, that while the blank extractor and axle seemed improbable, they did not seem impossible.

First, does anyone else own a 1939 Mauser from the late transition "r" block for comparison?

Second Bill, can you cite an authoritative source that no Mauser Luger ever left the factory with a blank toggle rear axle? I'm not saying it is not improbable, but when you state that ALL Mauser Lugers had stamped toggle rear axles, do you mean to imply that in 900,000 produced not one -- not a single one -- ever left the factory that way.

For myself, I can envision some stupidity where the box of stamped axles was misplaced. And having a few dozen final "r" block s/42s awaiting assembly while the entire Mauser effort was being transition to the 42 codes and the later proof stamps, maybe it just wasn't worth it to go back and stamp the axles for those few s/42 Lugers and they just said, "aw, the heck with it send them out."

Not exactly how I envision the ever-efficient Germans.

Orv, are you certain as well that no Mauser Luger ever left the factory with a blank toggle rear axle?

Thanks for the help as if it could be authoritatively proved that ALL Mauser small parts were stamped, then this thread would serve to help me and others to know that if even 1 small part is blank the Luger COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE all original.

Thanks.

Jimbo

Ralph; I have defended you on this and we need your input.
Lonnie

Dear Folks
The following orders published on the 17 March 1932 in the
"Army Official Gazette" should be of interest in the above discussion. "In order to prevent rear connecting pins of Pistolen 08 from being exchanged by mistake each of the pins is to be marked on its head with the last two digits of the factory number"

Orders later that year cover police pistols and indicate that the numbering is to be done by local armories of the police detachments.

Pre 1932 Lugers that were routed to armories for any reason had the rear toggle pins stamped. This explains the many Imperial and Weimar era Lugers that have a sn stamped on rear toggle pin.

All the Mauser Army Lugers were required to have matched rear toggle pins. Mauser Lugers with little or no use ("Mint") should have all the parts matching as there is yet little chance of breakage. Well worn Lugers may have some replacement parts.

In general, all the origonal Mauser Army Lugers that I have observed have numbered rear toggle pins.

To quote Orv.
"You should never base an evaluation/explanation on what a seller said!...verify!..or, someday, [when you go to sell it]...you will get a real lesson in economics."
Jan

Another question on the toggle pin, my 1918 and 1916 DWM's are matching 'except' the magazine. The toggle pin is not numbered, and it is blued, is this normal for that era Luger?

Herb,
With regard to rear toggle pin numbering, Jan (directly above) says Imperials numbered only if routed to armory. Mauserlugers (about 6 entries above) says Imperials not originally numbered. So it looks like unnumbered would be normal for your 1916 & 1918. Don't know general case on pin bluing, but my 1918 DWM is blued (and unnumbered).

Hi Jan,

Thank you for your definitive response. Your 1932 issue is the authoritative proof which vindicates Bill M. and convincese me that ALL Lugers had stamped small parts before they left the Mauser factory.

All of my Lugers have all the small parts stamped except this 1939 s/42 from the "r" block. It was supposed to be "all matching mint in and out". Oh well, live and learn. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

I will contact Ralph and investigate why he believes the unstamped parts constitute all-mathching.

Thanks for the information. I feel good because I learned something new. I knew that mis-matched numbers constituted new parts but didn't realize blank parts did similarly. Now I know. I'll use that new knowledge in my next purchase. Thanks!

Jimbo the Enlightened One <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

I checked my Mauser Lugers, and all (11) had the toggle pin numbered. Looks kinda bad for your near mint pistol. Thanks Bill Munis and Jan Still.
Lonnie

I have plenty of original Mauser numbered rear toggle axels and a few Imperial renumbered ones @$15 each. If anyone needs same to match up their PO8, please let me know last 2 digits and chamber date, as die sets and finish will vary over time. hellerarms@webtv.net

? [quote] I will contact Ralph and investigate why he believes the unstamped parts constitute all-matching. <hr></blockquote>

I, for one, would be interested in his reply. Would you please post it?

Orv Reichert

Hi Orv,

Sure. Why not?

Jimbo