Newbie - 1917 Erfurt all matching
 

I've been following the forum off an on now for some time. And the recent discussion (from March?) on whether to shoot a collector piece got me wondering just where my model fits. It's all matching and original, given to my grandfather (a doctor in the army) after it was removed from the german who he treated in the field and who subsequently tried to shoot my grandfather (or so the story goes).

Anyways, original matching number grips (no chips), single matching number clip, snail drum (I don't have immediate access to it to check the numbers), all original bluing in very good shape (unrestored and very likely unused in the last 80 years, no rust or pitting).

Original holster in very good shape, marked:

F.Shultz
Offenbachym
1916

(2nd last letter of 2nd line is my best guess). Take-down tool intact. The holster also has a hand-written note from my grandfather on white medical tape that says something to the effect that 'this gun is always loaded' (the note's pretty hard to read now).

I had thought that Erfurts weren't the most desirable, but given the matching numbers and mostly complete set of 'stuff' (except a 2nd clip?) I was wondering if I should consider this a collector piece or something less.

Luke, hell, errr, heck yes it's a collectable. If for no other reason the story. Some collect Erfurts exclusively!! If it were mine I wouldn't shoot it!! That's just my opinion! :)

Thanks for the info Frank.

This falls into the "Antiques Roadshow" category: I'll never sell it, but I wonder what it's worth...?

Luke

I'm with Frank on this. I LIKE Erfurt Lugers and the personal history attached to it would make it a non-shooter for me even if it weren't in such nice condition. I hope the pistol and the story remain in your family for generations to come.

Luke,

Mark me down as another Erfurt-o-phile.

Remote-guessing of value is always a sketchy thing, post pictures if at all possible--overall shots of the gun for condition, holster with details, magazine with detail of mag bottom.

The snail drum mag is original to Artilleries, but there's nothing that says one couldn't have migrated. Drum magazines are commonly seen for $1k and up.

It sounds like you have a terrific collection-worthy rig, with the addition of a personal family connection. One could be envious.

--Dwight

Thanks Dwight,

I suspect the drum isn't matching. For the rest of the rig I'll try to take some pictures (with attention to what you've pointed out) over the next few days and post them (although I may not get to this until the weekend).

Luke, the value of your Luger depends on three things!! As a friend of mine would say these are 1) Condition, 2) Condition and 3) Condition.

Of course the value also depends on the rarity and the matching of all parts, including the magazine. Photos showing the condition, wear, or the lack of it will be just dandy.

I would be really surprised if the serial number of the Trommel would match the Erfurt!! And if it did, it would be a real coincidence!!

Luke,

I'd like to see those PICS...I'm in the ERFURT bunch too...

kidvett :cool:

...I'll upload some pics later today...

Luke

Sorry for the delay in uploading. At some point in the past in the name of efficiency I removed the frames from my view of the forum, and in doing so lost my link to upload pics. Then I had to reduce the image size...

photo thumbnailed by Admin-JS, you can see the full size photo by clicking on the thumbnail image.

Here's the first of them

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

For everyone's convenience, the link to the Lugerforum.com homepage is located at the bottom of every discussion page for restoration of your frames...and recovering the links in the left frame.

There is also a new undocumented feature... if you edit your post and replace the IMG between the UBB tags with the word "thumb" then your image will automatically be thumbnailed and the full image is available by clicking on the thumbnail.

Thanks John,

Some additional pics (hopefully following your instructions):

Magazine Bottom (Dwight: not sure if you're interested in this or the trommel - which I don't have immediate access to):

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MagBtmDetail-cropped.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MagBtmDetail-cropped.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Top Image
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerTop-Cropped.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerTop-Cropped.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

And the holster. You can see the name and date stamp above the clasp, and the original WWI medical tape with the near-impossible to read note.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerHolster1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerHolster1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

What does everyone think?

Luke

They look like nice original pieces to me Luke!!

Always possible it has been reblued, more pictures can clear that up.

Lets talk about low values, then you can go from there, checking e-bay can give you guesses, but lets say, if all stitching is intact on the holster, they go from $85-$150, loading tool, depending on how thye are marked $45-$85 (and up), pistol, at least $500, (shooters go for that), probably closer to $750, depending on what Frank said, Condition, condition, etc. :D

Oh and I like Erfurts too, don't have a nice rep piece yet, working on getting one from a friend of mind, :)

Ed

Real nice pieces Luke... but on examination of the magazine bottom full size I can see that the magazine has been re-numbered to match the gun... the original number is still there on the wood and a "7" is clearly visible between the "3" and the "0" only lighter.

Here is an enhanced and enlarged photo both in natural and negative color that show the images of the original mag number...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Over-stampedMagBottom.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Over-stampedMagBottom.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

I saw that too on the image (never saw it up close before). I can't imagine that happened on this side of the Atlantic although I can't rule out anything (...the path of ownership the the best of my knowledge was German - grandfather - greatgrandfather - grandfather - father - me).

Would this have been re-stamped as a replacement for one in the field?

Luke

Hi Luke!! The photo of the top just looks wrong to me. I'm going to guess it's a bad photo. The side view looks like it's a nice pistol, about 90%, plus. The magazine has been renumbered, but when and by whom, who knows. I would value the Luger and magazine at $900, the holster at $250, the tool at $40, if it has an Erfurt Mark, maybe $50 and the Trommel at $1000. My guess for the whole mess, somewhere around $2200, or so. If I guessed too low on the finish, then it's more and if the the pistol has been refinished, then I'm $400 to $500 too high.

Anyway, this should give you a decent idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I did a little work on the picture of the Luger and hope you can see a bit more detail in the two images I'm posting. http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1-1.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1-2.jpg

Wow,

You guys are too much! Thanks for the graphics expertise Doubs!

The thumbnail of the top pic does look poor (I suspect due to the reduction process I used - the originals pics at ~650 kB), but if you click on the link to see the full image, it's a better representation.

Now that I've figured out how to reduce the jpegs and upload the images, I can redo or concentrate on anything that would help (I'm amazed at how poor my close-up photographic skills are ... Devil's Tower looks great with this camera!).

Please let me know if it would help to take more pictures for upload or email.

As per my original note, this gun saw action in WWI, and has been in the family since then. It may have seen use since WWI, but if so I stongly suspect it was limited. I have no idea what the story behind the re-stamped magazine is - anyone who would died at least 50 years ago. However to the best of my knowledge and belief it's still the original finish & condition.

Luke

Your skills with the camera aren't as poor as you think! Actually, the pictures are pretty good and it just takes a little tweaking to pull lots of detail. You have a VERY nice Erfurt Luger and the holster appears to be in excellent condition too. VERY nice, indeed.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...-Cropped-1.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...sterDetail.jpg

Offenbach is on the Main (pronounced "mine") river, and its full name is Offenbach am Main or Offenbach on the Main. The holster marking is the abbreviated form "OFFENBACH A/M" with the second "A" (for "am") as a sort of superscript form above the slant sign.

The name written that way would normally mean there is another Offenbach, but I don't know of any.

Jim

Is it just me, or am I the only one to notice that there is no old patination in that wood magazine overstamp? That stamp looks recent. I’ve seen a lot of bogus stamps on Mauser wooden stocks, and the red herrings always seem to lack that nice 50 year old patination in them. I also seem to recall that one armourer’s replacement wood mag I saw had the old number crossed out, and the new over it, with the correct patina. To be fair, I can’t imagine a true fulltime faker trying to pass that lame attempt at making it all matching. Especially with the typical Luger buyer running around with a microscope for inspection. Mag looks like a Bubba special to me.

Correct. The "legitimate" number changes I have seen have always involved simply crossing out the old number and stamping the new. The armorers weren't trying to make it look original, only to keep the pieces together.

O.T., Heydrich, can you e-mail me at keenanj@xecu.net. Thanks.

Jim

Hello Luke,

I cannot tell for sure, but it appears your grip screw(s) are not Erfurt proofed. If they are, they would have a similar but smaller version of the Erfurt proofs that appear on the trigger side plate and the take-down lever, and many other small parts on your gun.

I am not sure how much, if any, these grip screws detract from your pistol's value...

Since your pistol has such a family connection, I would personally not worry to much about screws or a renumbered magazine...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete, Tom Heller told me that Erfurt stopped proofing the grip screws later in production but I don't recall the exact date. I have seen 1914 (mine) and a 1916 with proofs, but 1917's and 1918's without.

I wouldn't want to make a call on the originality of the mag number over-stamp but if it was an attempt to deceive anyone, it's a poor effort as the mag numbers do not match the pistol! As I read the mag numbers, they are "2950" or "2930" (and I tend to think they are "2950"). The pistol serial number is clearly 5930. I think it would be interesting to examine the mag first hand.

Here's an enhanced picture of the grip screw. Clearly it doesn't have the Erfurt inspector's stamp on it.
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...rGripScrew.jpg

I'll try to gain some insight into the re-stamp this weekend (while visiting parents).

Doubs is right - there's no mark at all on the grip screw, and nor is there any mark on the tool in the holster.

Regarding patination, does anyone have any insight into how will the patination develop over time (eg 80 yrs) in the absence of handling or exposure to sun? I had thought that a (if not the) major contributor to patination is handling...

Luke

Patination of wood requires time and exposure to air, not sunlight or human contact. And this film of old wood seems to develop better in the absence of direct sunlight, such as inside a church. A lot of people really like this old look (and smell) in old homes and churches. As a child, I remember seeing ceiling beams in an old German house that reeked of age and patina.

I’m sure that many of the old-time collectors here will understand what I mean, when I write that the woodwork on legit old firearms have a unique look and smell to them. It is something I find terribly lacking and sad with the modern plastic and metal firearms.

Late Erfurts have unmarked screws, period. Let's put that one to rest.

Aaron,

Do you know at what point in production grip screws stopped being inspector stamped? Is there documentation or an observed range? Evidence of a directive?

--Dwight

Very difficult to answer, so all I can do is tell you what I have observed, and that is somewhere around the 1916 "a" suffix unmarked grip screws begin to occur, and by the end of that year just about all did not bear the Erfurt proof. Would like to see some input from other Erfurt owners.

I have a 1916 Erfurt in the "b" suffix range - a police conversion - with original grips and unmarked screws. I also have a .30 caliber rework with all matching numbers except the replacement barrel and the grip screws are not marked. There's no date on the chamber as it was removed but the receiver is notched for the Artillery sight so it's late 1916, 1917 or 1918.

This is an example of a Police arsenal re-stamp

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/re-stamp.jpg

(wish I had the gun to go with it!)

Are my eyes deceiving me or is the safety marked 20 rather than 30 ?

...under maginifaction it looks like a flat topped "3" and a "0" to me Stu... but it looks like a hand stamped "30" that is slightly covered with metal discoloration from age and oxidation on that in-the-white part... that is the best I can make out considering the focus on that particular part...

I could be wrong...(my wife says I am all the time :D ) but if it proves to be a "20" under better focus and magnification I would be surprised...

It sure is unclear in the pic (I couldn't tell either)! I just checked and it is in fact a 30. This weekend I asked about the re-stamp, and it is my father's opinion that the gun came from Europe (in 1918) that way. I guess it will remain a mystery.

Luke

20 or 30...???

Good case point for some of the drawbacks of digital photography...

Sure looked like a "20", but we know from the Owner it is a "30"...

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/ErfurtSafety.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Even in person it was difficult to tell. It took a lot of different angles and lighting to reach the conclusion that it's a 30.

Luke

Pete, I have to disagree...digital photography had nothing to do with the readability of the number stamping... it was all lighting, focus and metal condition... film photography under identical conditions would be no better...