An interesting KU Luger
 

Here are pictures of a KU Luger I recently purchased. Even though it is an import stamped East German rework, I feel that it is well worth the $500 purchase price. All numbers match and appear to be the original parts, except for the sear bar and firing pin, which have been have been electro penciled in. The magazine is an extruded 2/1001 type with a 1 and 1834 stamped on the bottom.

What makes this gun especially interesting is that it is a 1938 byf. According to Still and Gibson, all KU's are 41 byf, 41-42 or 41 S/42 dated except for three known exceptions. These are: 1939-byf KU4246, 1940-42 KU2303, and a rumored 42-byf.

The serial number of this gun, 1834KU, falls in the range of 41-byf guns listed in Gibsons book; in fact he lists one with an 1830 serial number.

This gun has all the proper acceptance marks in the proper places; the LA proof and Mauser acceptance mark on the bbl and the LA on the right receiver and left breechblock. I do not know the purpose of the little group of punch marks below the TD lever, anyone have any ideas?

Comments as to the authenticity of this gun are expected!

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/KU-1a.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/KU-2a.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/KU-3.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/KU-4.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/KU5a.jpg

There ya'll go again, acting like everyone knows what you are talking about. I assume the KU is the sn suffix/block of production? And Hugh, there isn't polite way to say this, but I've never seen a blue Luger before. But that's OK, if that's how they are then so be it. [img]confused.gif[/img]

RK

Hugh, the eagle LA on the left of the barrel is that of a 1941 Krieghoff parts eagle, noted on KU byf's. It represents the letters ZAL, Zivial, or for civilian use. Supposedly the KU means 'Krieghoff Umbricht', a rework for civilian use. Above per Costanzo.

RK, picky, picky, picky! You can only find blue Loogers in Texas, thats why you rednecks ain't never seen one! Do these colors suit you better?

The KU Lugers are possibly the most controversial of all WWII Lugers because no one is sure what the KU signifies. There are various theories put forth which I won't go into here. For the best info on them see chapter 9 in THE KRIEGHOFF PARABELLUM by Randall Gibson, or Jan Still's THIRD REICH LUGERS, or Walter's THE LUGER BOOK. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

I don't have those books and don't know anything about the "ku" controversy.

However, from the "ku" seen on this gun, isn't that an umlaut over the "u" (the two dots)?

From high school German class, that would seem to me to make the "u" actually two letters: "ue".

Is the "ku' suffix actually "kue"?

This is just a shot in the dark.....

Maxcam, that is definitely an umlaut, soon as I find my dictionary I'll start looking. Excellent observation.

Hugh, Next time you take out your 24" nickel plated ivory gripped scoped 19 round magazine capacity .219 aramadillo Luger and put it in its Mexican shoulder holster, put on your Richard Petty feather fan cowboy hat with wrap around sun shades and silver tipped snakeskin boots, and climb into your 4wd monster truck with a shrine to Dale on the dash and hanging off the rear view mirror with and the number "3" in gold plated letters on both doors, please ask that wonderful long suffering woman you are married to
if she would please take a picture for you to look at before you consider calling me a redneck again. I'm a little uneasy with some of you Westerners. Thor was trying to kill himself one finger at a time and now this. That hurt.


RK

Hugh, not a whole lot of info in my references on this. Aarron Davis in The Luger Handbook says the KU marked Lugers were made by Mauser but finished by Krieghoff for contractual reasons and then supplied to the the German Coastal Flying Service (KUstenfliegerstafflen) He also shows the eagle LA symbol, so much for Zivial, so many experts, so little agreement. We need Sherlock Holmes on this forum, or maybe Charlie Chan, they could unravel the mysteries of the Luger marking! That made me think of an old Holmes/Watson joke, he he.

OK Hugh, just to show that I don't have any hard feelings for you calling me a redneck, I'll try to take care of the mystery of the KUs. The key, as Max2cam correctly brought up, is in the U. The U with the double dots is a pronunciation indicator. This would not have been used for a block sequence since it is a grammar term for pronunciation only. It would however be used on a production item to indicate overrun: "Uberzahl" (with umlaut). They had run out of numbers in the K block, another line had already had used the start of the next block series, they still had production capacity, so they continued production using prior numbers with the U stamp for uberzahl meaning overrun. That's why they are so rare. Nice and orderly, a simple way to handle a normal manufacturing process. The marks on the frame look like they were after the refinishing process. Wouldn't they be blued? And why would the factory designate a unit (Kustefliegestaffeln) and mark it? That would be difficut to designate a specific unit at that level. It would also be a different die at the unit level and on a different place on the gun, those on the gun were marked at the same time.
What about it?

RK

RK,
It sounds like you could be on to something!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Brandon...

Now this thread would be the perfect place for comments by Jan Still or Brad Simpson! Any comments, gentlemen? What is the KU Luger?

So far I think Roadkill gets the prize for creative thinking, though of course in Lugerland (next door to La La Land) that doesn't guarantee a win.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Ok, I see that you neophytes are going to force me to wear my fingers to the bone typing!
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

This is what Jan Still says in THIRD REICH LUGERS:

"Some Lugers have a Ku suffix or prefix added to the serial number on the left receiver. Essentially all are dated 41 (with exceptions-HC) and almost all bear the Mauser assigned E/655 acceptance stamp on the barrel. Most have at least one part that is marked with the S/42 or 42 Mauser replacement part code.

The meaning of the Ku and the designation of the Lugers on which it is found has long been the subject of much speculation. Randall Gibson, in his book THE KRIEGHOFF PARABELLUM (pp129-136), thoroughly reviews the subject and finally concludes that they were made up of Mauser parts and probably assembled for the Luftwaffe. Lou Cuta (AUTO MAG, Vol. XIV, p.148) discovered that the probable meaning of the Ku was "Kummerer", which means substandard or missized. The proof found on these Lugers has the appearance of other Luftwaffe markings and is likely a Luftwaffe proof.

While it is apparent that the Ku Lugers were assembled for the Luftwaffe from leftover or missized parts, the time and place of assembly has not been satisfactorily established. A 1941 assembly by Mauser is the most likely; however, the finish is cruder than that of the 1941 Mauser Army contract. Some suggest an assembly date as late as 1944. Assembly at a different plant is also possible. According to Albert Speer, Minister of Armaments (in his book INFILTRATION), there were plans in July, 1942, to continue production of the P.08 at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. It is estimated that about 5,000 Ku Lugers were assembled by Mauser or at another plant sometime in the 1941 to 1944 time span."

I just finished reading chapter 9 of Gibson's book. His conclusion, after exhaustive examination of available material is:

"With firm documentation lacking, it is not possible to firmly state that the Ku weapons were assembled by Krieghoff for the Luftwaffe. It can be stated that Mauser manufactured the components with the facts indicating that Krieghoff was involved in the final assembly and finishing. This being the case, the pistols were most likely intended for distribution to the Luftwaffe."

Hugh, I like the "missized" theory. That, of course, doesn't mean it's true.... it just means that I like it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Imperial Lugers, especially late war Erfurt pistols, were sometimes marked with C/RC which signifies a part that functions perfectly but is not within specs. A "Revisions Commission" deemed the part serviceable and stamped it "C/RC". This supposedly made the regular inspector blameless in the event of a failure involving the C/RC stamped part.

So.... why not a WW2 equivalent? Certainly the desperate need for pistols meant that a part that worked, even if not within specs, could be pressed into service. Identifying the gun as having such parts makes perfect sense. Doesn't make it so, but I like the theory.

Hello Hugh,

I have Still's book but it would be nice if he could confirm or deny any new information about Ku Lugers since the book was published in 1989. I was hoping, since he now reads these posts, he might have learned something new about them in the last 15 years and could tell us here.

Right on, Jimbo, I was hoping that Jan or Brad Simpson might have some updated information on these they could share with us. What about it you guys? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Expert= Ex, has been

I hate it when I hit the wrong button's on my keyboard.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say I think it's a very nice piece and I think you got a very good deal on it.

"I do not know the purpose of the little group of punch marks below the TD lever, anyone have any ideas?"

Hi Hugh,
Congratulations on a neat luger. I noticed your importer stamp is the same as on my EG luger which is also a 1938. Mine is a standard S/42 with replaced EG barrel.

Mine also has the punch marks, only up higher on the receiver left of the serial number.

My guess is they're East German police unit markings. I think they had sunburst markings with different unit numbers within.

Craig

[quote]Originally posted by crgkstnr:
[QBMy guess is they're East German police unit markings. I think they had sunburst markings with different unit numbers within.
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Hi Craig!

Whatever the marking is, it isnâ??t an VoPo sunburst. Hereâ??s what that looks like.

Warm regards,

Kyrie
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/EG_SunBurst.jpg

Hi Craig!

"Whatever the marking is, it isn’t an VoPo sunburst. Here’s what that looks like."

Greetings Kyrie,
I don't think my post was clear. I meant what might be the E German sunburst stamps were defaced by punching them with something like a blunt center punch.

I can't think of any pre-1946 stamp which would be where the punch marks are on my (left of rec. serial) or Hughs pistol.

Thanks for posting that sunburst stamping.

I wonder if any forum member has a luger with intact E. German stamps? Where were these stamps usually placed on a luger?

Craig

What is the guess of why the east german marks were defaced? And who did it, importers, exporter or the gov't after the east fell?

crgkstnr, I believe you are right. According to John Walter in THE LUGER BOOK, the distinctive features of the VOPO Lugers "are the distinctive matt blue finish, the dark plastic grips with concentric circle mark and new magazines marked 2/1001"

My gun has all of the above features. I just examined the mark under a good light and 15x glass and can see the very ends of two of the sunburst rays at the bottom of the punch marks. Could it be that the Germans defaced the mark before releasing the guns to the public?
[img]confused.gif[/img]

OK, now it's a wild guess.
Maybe as more modern pistols became available to the E. Germans they pulled the lugers out of service in the mid 50's defaced the police stamps and refinished the pistols and put them into storage for future use by themselves, or for sale to other communist countries. What do you think?

Hugh,

The odd looking punch marks are the defacing of a Communist E. German stamp. When the pistols first started to be released, the US could not accept any shipments of firearms which had Commie stamps, so, the best way was to deface the stamps and they could be sold to the US dealers.

Most of the pistols probably came thru a large German wholesale dealer before being purchased by the distributor in the US. This is a nice find!!

Marvin

Thanks, Marvin. It looks like I've got a genuine Ku/VOPO Luger. Since I probably couldn't afford an original condition Ku, I am happy with this find, especially at that price!.
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

The VOPO "sunburst" stamp on my 1938 Luger survived because it's hidden behind the take-down lever. I was wondering what it referred to.

Is it a property stamp to any particular district or unit or just a generic Volks Polizi acceptance stamp?

One of my E. German reworks has the marks stamped on the front of the frame between the serial number and the suffix letter! There are three distinct marks including a small sunburst with the number five in it and a circle-X. I'll have to check the other one to see what all it has. I can tell you that it has the number "16" on the front left receiver wall and the same number on the frame exactly where the punch marks appear on the KU Luger. The 16 may be an assembly number because it's not part of the serial number. I'll try to take a few pictures later.

Many P38's were imported into the US indirectly from the 'comblock' in order to hide the fact that they were from a 'proscribed' country. Often, any VOPO or similar marks were struck with a round headed punch to solve that problem.

I am told they were shipped to Austria or Switzerland and then to the US with doc's that certified that they did not come from a 'bad' country.

I am sure this applied to the P08, as well?

Orv Reichert

Orv,

Thanks for the info on the pistols coming thru Austria or Switzerland! I thought they may have come thru one of the big German dealers. Anyway, at least they came here for us Luger collectors.

Marvin

They may have been shipped to Germany with the original source indicated as Switzerland or Austria...sneaky, eh?

Orv

Hello Folks,

Any comments that this 1938 byf reworked luger is really a 1938 byf; or did a 1938 Mauser pistol get an another toggle assembly added at some point in time ?

Just trying to understand Hugh's original post...

Response to your request for comment is No.
Answer to your question is Yes.

"byf" wasn't a code being used in 1938... I am fairly certain that code started being used in 1941.

[quote]Originally posted by crgkstnr:
<strong>Greetings Kyrie,
I don't think my post was clear. I meant what might be the E German sunburst stamps were defaced by punching them with something like a blunt center punch.
[snip]
I wonder if any forum member has a luger with intact E. German stamps? Where were these stamps usually placed on a luger?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Craig!

Ah! I understand better - sorry I was dense ;-(

There doesnâ??t seem to have been any rhyme or reason to the location of the VoPo stamps - they occur wherever there was room for them. They are usually found somewhere near the frame serial number, but there are exceptions.

According to Dieter Marschall in his wonderful â??Walther Pistols Models 1 Through P99â?? the stamp (albeit obliterated on your Luger) is a sunburst enclosing a shield that encloses the number of the administrative district. These administrative district were:

1 Rostock
2 Schwerin
3 Neubrandenburg
4 Potsdam
5 Frankfurt/Order
6 Cottbus
7 Magdeburg
8 Halle
9 Gera
10 Suhl
11 Dresden
12 Liepzig
14 Karl Marx Stadt (Chemnitz)
15 Berlin
16 Wismut

Warm regards,

Kyrie

After Kyrie posted the VOPO Administrative District listing, I had to run and get my Luger again. This VOPO stamp is under the sideplace on the frame behind the takedown lever (when in closed position).

Mine reads "3" which according to this list is Neubrandenburg.

Now to get a map of Germany out.....

Thanks Kyrie.

Funny, but while my gun is VoPo marked, it did not come with "bullseye" grips (rather it had two different style of plastic grips -- one had shreds of holster leather between the diamonds).

As to finish, I'm not sure if it's "dipped" blue or not. The box (AIM) said "original finish" and I do notice that the barrel (new Crown N replacement) has fresher bluer blue than the frame, which has some very light pitting in spots with worn off spots on the sideplace, grip area of the frame, etc.

So some of these VoPo marked guns came thru without bullseye grips and showing some holster wear.

Mine is mismatched and has a S/42 "Gothic S" (1935 K-date?) toggle.

I know it's a hunk of junk to you guys, but I like it....

Why the concdrted effort to deface Vopo marks on Lugers when virtually all of the Vopo marks on P38s were left intact? Incidentally, Dieter's book seems to be a bit behind in the numbering of Vopo marks. There are many more than 16. My P38 has a Vopo 27 mark.

I think the 'defacing' took place prior to 1968 to hide the 'combloc' source.

From 1968 to early 1980's no one could import ANY military weapons thanks to the 1968 GCA.

In the early 1980's, a sneaky change was added to another bill [tacked on] which said that 'surplus military weapons may be imported by a licensed importer if the weapon is classified as a Curio, Relic, or Antique. This is what opened the flood gates, again!

The defacing was not necessary if the guns could be proved to have been in another country for 5 years.

Orv Reichert

Originally posted by Pete: Any comments that this 1938 byf reworked luger is really a 1938 byf; or did a 1938 Mauser pistol get an another toggle assembly added at some point in time ?

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
Pete,according to presently accepted theories, Ku Lugers were "made up of Mauser parts and assembled and finished by Krieghoff for distribution to the Luftwaffe". So I would assume that any combination of Mauser parts would be possible. As the parts used were supposedly of substandard or "mis-sized" they probably used whatever had been rejected and thrown in the parts bin.

I have examined the numbers on this gun closely and found; the frame, receiver, sideplate, and middle toggle link are all stamped with the same number dies. The take down lever, both safety levers, extractor and trigger have the same style numbers but they are slightly smaller and are from the same dies. The rear toggle has been restamped with a slightly larger but similar style die. The breech block does not have a number, but has the same acceptance mark as the bbl and reciever. The firing pin, rear toggle pin and sear bar have the SN electroetched on them. The holdopen is not numbered. There is a "K" stamp in the TD lever well of the frame. The dies used to number the magazine are different than the ones on the gun.

The S/42 or 42 Mauser replacement part stamp is commonly found on Ku guns. This one has an S/42 on the left of the reciever in front of the SN. I believe that this is a genuine Ku gun assembled by Krieghoff of Mauser parts which consisted of a 1938 reciever and a byf toggle. During refinishing by the East Germans, some parts, namely the sear bar, firing pin, holdopen, rear toggle pin, & magazine were replaced. I believe that the rear toggle link is original, but had to be restamped when the number was removed during refinishing. This assumption is based on the fact that both the rear toggle link and the middle toggle link have a fairly uncommon stylized "R" within a "W" quality control inspectors stamp found on 1938 thru 1941 guns. (Costanzo, p219, #222).

Those that disagree with me are welcome to present their arguments. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Did you note the S/42 code on the left side of the slide? This is correct for parts produced for use as replacement parts and not to be assembled to a new gun.

We run into that on a lot of major P38 parts. The 'late ac frame' and un-numbered barrels all have the code and WaA stamped on them. and were in the parts inventory.

I would bet the slide was secured from 'parts'

Orv Reichert

ORV,

According to Still & Gibson as quoted in my earlier post, most Ku Lugers have at least one part stamped either S/42 or 42.