My Luger --41 byf
 

Hi, I'm new to the forum, what a great wealth of information. My luger was given to me a year ago by my mother in law. My father in law died and she gave me his "bring back" when I expressed some interest. I wish I had more interest in guns when he was alive, the result being that I really don't have a great wealth of detail about where he got it. "Took it from a dead German officer." is about all I have aside from the safety inspection he got on the gun stateside (calls it a 38cal lol)

Serial number is 1404 all parts match including the firing pin but not the magazine (aluminum base). I would say 85-90% blue, but I really don't have the experience in judging that. Good grips, still mostly sharp and not oil darkened. Bore is nice. Shoots well.

Also with a holster, no markings, in decent shape except the belt loops, one of which is missing. It is the kind of holster were a squared 'U' of metal projects through a slot when closed and the leather tab slipps through the 'U'

I have no intention of selling for any price, but I would very much appreciate any information anyone would be willing to give. Is the magazine right for a Mauser or were they just substituted around in the German army? We might get a digital camera someday but no pic's now.

Thanks,

Hello Integral!! Welcome to the Forum. Perhaps a bit more information is in order. You say the S/N is 1404. Most byf 41 Lugers have a script letter suffix. This suffix, if there is one, is found on the front of the frame, just below the barrel and below the number. Also, it is important to describe the acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver. These should be an eagle-over-655, an eagle-over-135, or a combination of these. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Integralaction

From the description of the holster closure it may be for a P-38 rather than a Luger. IMO

Ken D

Thanks Frank,

There are two eagle over 655 on the breach followed by eagle over what is probably a swastika. The letter is a script u.

Ken, thanks also. I was wondering why I never saw a similar holster with other luger rigs. I'll hold out hope it is some rare version of a luger holster [img]smile.gif[/img] . I'm pretty sure that it was found with the luger, but my wife is not certain, just always assumed that was the case. I always assumed so as well. I'll check with her mom. He did say he traded for the ammo box and cleaning kit, which I have previously found out is for a german rifle. The ammo box has a couple dozen 9mm rounds brought back as well as a few .38 rounds that I assume were used to test fire the gun back when my wife was a little girl. She remembers the one time they did that. Would a .38spl successfuly fire in a luger?

No, I'm sorry, no other round will work except 9mm.

What are the bring back cartridges marked on the rim?

Hi, Great screen name. ( My better part said that).
If it doesn't look like the movie version take it to a local gunshop/range and ask the smith/clerk to run a check on it's fuction. If you buy a box of reg. FMJ. he will gladly shoot your pistol for you. Then go to Wallmart and buy a 100 round box of Winchester FMJ for 11.00.
All of us, I'm sure, would like to see pictures of your FIL's pistol. These are the cool ones, even if they are the ones taken from the hands of the ...
Can you borrow a camera and show us?; It sounds like you can take it apart and let us see all the good stuff. IF you have somthing cool and valuable, we will tell you and you don't have to worry about crooks, ect...Were <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Hi Again Integral!! Your Luger is of the more common variety and was completed in the summer of 1941, probably August (could be July). The pistol was probably shipped with wooden grips and aluminum bottom magazines numbered to the serial number of the Luger, 1404u. Having said that, it was in the transition period and there is a chance that the grips were black bakelite and the magazine contained an unnumbered black plastic bottom. If your grips are stamped (on the inside) with "04", then the former would be my bet. As to value, an 85 to 90 percent all matching Luger, with wooden grips, would be worth $750 to $900 depending on the correctnesss of your finish estimate. Again congratulations on your Luger!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edward,

There are 30 rounds with many variations on the headstamp. Three examples are:
41 oxo St+ 4
41 dnf St 1
44 pfo St+ 48

Many other ordinance codes represented. I havn't been through identifying them all yet. Curtis at www.cartridge-corner.com has been a help in making sense of the headstamps. In the order I've written them, I understand these markings to mean:
1 year of manufacture
2 ordinance code
3 Steel case (brass apparently would be just S or S+
4 lot number

I did not get an answer as to the significance of the + or it's absence. Any ideas? On one the + appears more like a small arrow, but I think it is just a poorly formed +.

As for the .38 special rounds, I am not convinced that a luger could not shoot them. I should add that I have absolutely no intention of doing so for I fear that it may not be safe either for me or the gun. But I think that they may have been fired by my father in law, years ago. I just tried chambering one and it appears to fit quite well. It may not project quite so far back from the chamber, but the extractor picks it up fine and therefore I believe the firing pin would reach the primer. A side by side comparison shows very little if any difference in case dimensions. The main visual difference is in bullet shape and length. I assume the powder charge is also different but I havn't checked up on that. My worries center around the bullet differences and how they may not match the chamber internals.

Thanks,

GWG,

Agree 100% on the Winchester from Wal-Mart. It is all I personally have used in the gun. Works great, I have no concern at all about the functioning of this luger. Great advice.

I would imagine that a 38 spl would be much longer than a 9MM ? I am not at home or I'd check. The 38 spl has a rim on it and the 9mm doesn't, so dimensionally it should not lock up?

Anyone else have some feedback on this? [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Frank,

I have not been as far as taking the grips off yet. When I do I will look for the stamp. They definitely look like wood to me. Thanks for the details about it's manufacture date. It's great to understand a bit more about it's history.

When my son comes home from college I'll try and get him to bring his digital camera home with him and I'll post the pictures then. Is there any way to explain % blue or is it just a matter of seeing enough examples.

Thanks,

I have talked about bluing and percent also, it is kind of an art... I plan on "eventually" taking a bunch of pictures of Lugers and having them judged by other collectors and posting a file on the forum that shows a percent of bluing from nil to 99%.

However, there are examples in one of the gun price books, the Blue Book and it shows many examples of diff guns.

When you hear 95%, expect to see wear on the tip of the barrel, on the trigger guard, sideplate, essentially where ever that the holster would rub, obviously the next couple of percent points would be less wear. This is where cold blue comes in by bad guys to touch up those areas and make the gun better.

How many new in the box guns are 99 or 100%? Few if any, they should look brand new.

So an 80 % would be fairly worn, with bluing missing along the barrel and such.

If ANYONE wants to send me pictures of their guns and rate them, If I get 20 - 30 guns in different shapes, I could compile a picture show of guns and show percent of bluing? Eventually, I want to take a ton of pictures and do the same thing on a better scale of good lighted pictures.

Integralaction,

I don't think you have .38 special ammo. .38 special cases are MUCH longer than 9 mm, but the bullet is about the same diameter. Also, as Ed has noted, the .38 special has a large rim and won't fit in the magazine or fully chamber. You must be looking at .380 or old .38 ACP ammo.

Integral, the numbers are stamped on the inside surface. It would consist of the last two digits "04" of the serial number and maybe also an inspection stamp. The inspection may be small and faint. In your case it would be an eagle-over-655, the same as the inspection marks on the receiver. The right side grip is much stronger than the left grip, with fewer obstructions to get around. I would recommend that if you want to check the grips, remove the right side and examine it. In many cases if you drop the magazine, you can see the back side of the left grip through the frame well enough to spot any numbers present. Good Luck !!!

If you do take the grips off, be careful, sometimes the grips stick and it is very easy to break off the tip of the grip. This is very common and you hear of the grip getting "chipped", so just be gentle [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Ref: + on the 9mm headstamps

I do not have a reference for German 9mm ammo but the Kent book on 7.9mm ammo has a lot of info about headstamp markings and most seem to apply to the 9mm also. In the book he says, and I quote:

""PLUS" SYMBOL: A satisfactory explanation for this symbol has yet to be determined. It appeared in 1941."

Regards, Leon

Edward and AGE,

You guys are not going to believe this. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways, I was not familiar with 38spl ammunition so I didn't see it for myself.

I'll eventually put up pictures but what I have here are 38 spl cases that have been modified and reloaded to mimic 9mm. The headstamp on each is PETERS 38 SPL but at closer inspection the rim has been machined off and chamfered at the back, and the groove machined in. They are cut off to 9mm length and have a conical bullet with a flattened crown tip. The overall length is almost 1/8" shorter. Small machining mistakes are obvious with a magnifier.

I still won't shoot them. I consider them now to be an interesting example of someone making ammunition to suit when 9mm was not commonly available. I've got to see if I can find out who did the machining.

You never know. Thanks again.

Leon,

Well now I know that no one knows! What a great board!

Hi Frank, Thanks for the tips on removing (or not) the grips. Think I'll wait for a day when I have plenty of time and patience. Looks like it is closer to 80-85% blue since there is clearly wear on the barrel.

Integralaction,

After you gave the explanation of the .38 Spl. rounds having the rim and groove machined, it makes sense. After the war, all these former soldiers had Lugers, but 9mmP ammo was difficult to come by, and when found, it was expensive. It sounds like someone made some rounds for your Luger from the .38 Spl cases and this abled your father-in-law to shoot the pistol. I have not checked the specs on the cases, but sounds logical to make a 9mmP from a .38 Spl case. Keep these as part of the pistol and family history.

Marvin

I always knew that 8 MM Nambu (Japanese pistol) had ammo problems, but hadn't thought of 9MM, since you can buy old boxes of ammunition. So that is very interesting and the rounds add to the history of the Luger! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>I always knew that 8 MM Nambu (Japanese pistol) had ammo problems, but hadn't thought of 9MM, since you can buy old boxes of ammunition. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Back about 1956/57 when my father and I bought our first Luger together, it was more difficult finding the cartridges than it was finding the pistol. Pop finally found a box of commercial 9mm but we then purchased it in 100 round lots of surplus non-corrosive 9mm from "Ye Olde Hunter" for $5.00/100. It was war-time Winchester. They also offered surplus corrosive ammo at $4.00/100.

The wood grips, now 62 years old, are the most fragile component of your luger. If you shoot it, put on a pair of inexpensive modern grips and save the two originals'condition. New grips can be had for $25 a pair and original grips, numbered to your gun, cost $80 when separated from the gun and are worth $100's if damaged and your gun loses its originality. Enjoy your luger. Your holster sounds like a P38 holster. A lot of luger holsters were modified to fit P38s but ocassionally a luger finds its way into a P38 holster, too. The cleaning kit used with the K98 rifle was generic for servicing small arms including luger pistols. It is, therefore, the proper cleaning kit for your luger.

Got pictures now. Spent most of the day with camera and software. My son took most of the pictures, think he did a very nice job.

First, here is an overall view of everything we discussed.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c1lugerrig2.jpg

Detail views:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c1topview.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c2leftside1.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c3rightside.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c2barrelleft.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c3rightbbl.jpg

More photos next post.

More luger details:

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c4receiverbbl1.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c4stamps.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c5fieldstripped.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c5magbottom2.jpg

Some of the ammo:

The one on the left is the WW2 9mmP, the one on the right is the "9mm" manufactured from 38 special case and cast bullets.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c6ninemmvsnine.jpg

The head stamps of the two.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c6headstamps.jpg

And a view that shows a casting line near the top part of the bullet.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c6ulletcastline.jpg

Finally, the printed list inside the cover of the "ammo box"
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/c7insidethebox.jpg

Enjoy. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Comments? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Nice gun, but I'm no expert on gun values. I probably get taken a lot.

That's some .38 special ammo that you have. I'm sure it wouldn't work in a gun chambered for .38 special anymore. Wow! 9 mm. is a whole lot cheaper than .38 now (and maybe always has been). Anyway, the guy that modified these cartridges went to a lot of trouble and evidently did a nice job. I would relegate these to storage if I were you and go get some of the Walmart Winchester bulk packs of 9 mm - $10.96 for 100 rounds.

Great pictures, no comments except I loved seeing them!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Hello Again Integral, I just love your group photo!! The cleaning "stuff" is for a Mauser Rifle, the holster is for a P.38, the magazine is for a 1939 S/42 Luger!! That's an eclectic grouping. I also think your "Work Thing" Box is great!!! I have never seen a tool box like that, congrats!!

From your photos of the pistol, it appears to be about 90 to 95%, maybe on the high side of that range. If that is the case, you would have to pay about $900 to $1100 to buy it from a dealer.

Looks like a very nice honest Luger!!!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Frank, thanks for the summary. This has been a lot of fun.

<img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" />
I've started translating the tool box contents and it appears to be some specialty tools for engine work. There are four rings, like the Audi symbol on the bottom of the box. Here is the list typed out followed by translations so far. Anyone got any ideas? I used AltaVista Bablefish translation to get this far. (My 'take' on the literal translation in parenthesis).

Inhaltsverzeichnis
Dieser Kasten "Werkzeug" enthalt:
Stck. Bezeichnung Teil-Nr.

Mutterschlussel 17 u. 14 SW
Schraubenzieher
Rundzange?f?nd SG-Ring
Kombinations?ange
Rohrsteckschlussel 17 u. 21 SW
Knebel dazu 10 h8 x 120
Rohrsteckschlussel 9 u. 10 SW
Knebel dazu 6 h8 x 90
Mutterschlussel 9 u. 10 SW
Zundeinstellschlussel 6/6 SW
Abziehvorrichtung f. d. Vent.-Scheibe
Mutterschlussel 6 u. 8 SW
Schraubenzieher kl.
Stahlbander f. Kolbenringmontage
Waschpinsel
But??e z. Reinigung der Zundkerze
Bosch Kontaktfelle
Putz??pp???? ?5 x 45 cm
Eim?????????e
(ai? D?m Ventilatorgehause des motors
befes??gt)

Translation:
Table of contents
This box "tool" contain:
Ea.. Designation part NR.
Mutterschlussel 17 and 14 SW (Nut wrench?)
Screwdriver (Screwdriver!)
Rundzange?f??d SG ring (Snap ring pliers?)
Kombinations?ange (Combination square?)
Rohrsteckschlussel 17 and 21 SW (Pipe/tubing wrench? Box end wrench?)
toggles in addition 10 h8 x 120
(Wing nuts? Compression fittings?)
Rohrsteckschlussel 9 and 10 SW (Pipe wrench?)
toggles in addition 6 h8 x 90 (Wing nuts?)
Mutterschlussel 9 and 10 SW (Nut wrench?)
Zundeinstellschlussel 6/6 SW (??Install? Wrench?)
puller f. D vent disk (Puller for vent disk?)
Mutterschlussel 6 and 8 SW (Nut wrench?)
screwdrivers kl. (Screwdrivers!)
Stahlbander f. piston ring assembly (3 Ring compression bands?)
wash brush (Cleaning brush)
But??e z. cleaning of the Zundkerze
(kerze is candle)
Bosch contact contacts (feeler gauges?)
Putz??pp???? x 45 cm (?)
Eim?????????e (ai? D?m Ventilatorgehause of the engine befes??gt) (?)

Hey Tac!!

Was hoping you'd see and answer, great translation (I assume its great cuz I can't do it, [img]biggrin.gif[/img] )

Thanks and have a festive Hanukah too!

tacfoley,

Great information, I really appreciate it! I'll be updating my word document when I get a chance. If there is anything I'm still unsure about I will be grateful for more help.

What part of the UK are you from? Spent some time in N.E. Lincolnshire and W. Sussex. May get back again from time to time.

Thanks,

Mr tac,

I am unsure of the meaning of the "steamed" reference. In any case I am delighted with the breadth of knowledge on tap here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Thanks again for the translations.

Unfortunatly I've not spent any time in Cambridgeshire. Your estate on the brook sounds lovely, though it must be difficult to keep up with the taxes using pillow sales. Happy Hannuka.

ahhhh, humour, I am taken by surprise at your wit sir!

[img]wink.gif[/img]