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Help with byf 42
Hello all...my first post as I've just recently joined, and would sure appreciate your help. Am finally deciding to take the P08 plunge after all these years, one reason being that a fellow I have worked with for many years and with whom I have always been good friends has just offered for sale to me the first luger he ever bought (he has four). He knew I was looking for one, and he came acoss a Broomhandle Mauser that he needs to get some money together for before it is gone. I don't know enough about these guns yet to trust my own judgement, so I beg your assistance.
He has a 1942 byf 9mm 4 inch BW, and it is in the best condition of any P08 I have ever seen, in person anyway. He disassembled it for me, all the numbers match. I wish I could remember the four digit serial number, but it escapes me this late at night. From what I have seen on the internet and in person, I would have to say the gun and bluing is at 99%. Holster wear is virtually non-existant...maybe completely non-existant. Plastic grips are perfect. From what I can ascertain from the web and this site, all markings are as they should be. He told me he had a gunsmith familiar with lugers look at the bore, and he could not even tell for sure if it had been shot before. Of course no pitting anywhere on the pistol The grips look like they should from the pictures you all have referred to in past posts. The gun has not been reblued, and he showed me what to look for to be able to tell if one has been. Well, without rattling on anymore, you get the picture. I wish I had the pictures to post, but will eagerly, and maybe even nervously, do so if I purchase it. I say nervously, but I completely trust this fellow as to what he says about the weapon, but am just wanting to know what you all think, with this limited information, the gun and accessories might be worth. It has two black plastic bottomed fxo mags, and a holster with a tool. The holster is without a doubt the best I have seen as well, and he says the holster alone could fetch $400. The stitching is nice and white, and the holster has all the proper markings from what I can tell, and is a good black with no fading. It is also a 1942. He is asking $2000 for everything, and I don't think he will go any lower. If all is as he says it is, is this a fair price? I don't expect an incredible bargain, but want to pay a fair price. Thank you all for any and all responses. |
If it is everything you say, it could be worth that much easily. Without seeing it, the people here will be severly disadvantaged at making a judgement call. If you could get some pictures of everything, especially a close up of a few places on the Luger so that a more accurate evaluation could be made. It would help greatly, especially in being able to tell if the bluing is orginal or not. One thing to consider, they aren't getting any cheaper as time passes. I bought my byf 42 in 1979, and many thought I was crazy to pay $475 for any handgun, then. I'm happy I splurged and bought it. Imagine the value of that setup, you are looking at, in 25 years!!!
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2K is many skins unless you are familiar with the gun or the seller. Sounds like you trust the seller. One option might be to buy the gun (trusting the seller) with a 3-5 day provision for a return. If the piece is as described, both seller and buyer will be happy and deal will be final and the 3-5 day is almost moot. The 3-5 days gives you some insuranc & the opportunity to photograph the piece and to share with others who are impartial and can better assess the value.
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Hi Sterling, welcome to the Luger Forum.
Based on your description, if the pistol is all you say it is, buy that little sucker!!!! The pistol alone might be sold for the $2K. One word of caution would be to make sure the grips are correct. There are some pretty sneaky people out there that are making some authentic looking grips. You have researched the photos on the Luger Forum, so you know what to look for. Make sure the threaded holes on the back side of each grip is the same size as the grip screw threads. If you decide to test them by inserting a grip screw, do it carefully as not to chip out the Bakelite, since it is brittle!!!! Good Luck |
Thanks Johnny, Frank and Bob, for the quick reply. This site looks like a great place with a lot of great people. I have decided to buy the pistol, and will immediately post the pictures here for your scrutiny. I look forward to your input, and soon I guess it will be time to look for a shooter, although I'm sure I'll need to put a mag or two through this one! That's not a terribly bad idea, is it?
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I just paid $1950 for the exact same rig. I don't think you can go wrong.
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Stirling, I have a BYF 42 that used to be in the same condition. I stored it poorly. If we want to shoot our matching 42's, we should get the most breakable parts from Lugerdoc. How about it Doc, what would you recommend?. I cringe every time I shoot mine. That next shot might cost a bunch if I don't replace them and put them away. Would you tell us what we should set aside and still keep shooting. I will gladly send you mine to do the swap out.
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Hello Sterling,
Man...that's a very, very nice luger rig ! Congratulations. Your "DLU/1942 WaA 841" stamped holster was made in 1942 by the firm of Ewald Lunenschloss, Militareffekten-Fabrik located in Solingen (from E. Bender's large book on page 207). Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> |
Sterling... what an excellent byf 42 specimen... and great photography too.
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Do I see something here?
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/topgun.jpg |
By golly you're right Herb...
The toggle has been renumbered from "54" to "24" so this gun is not completely number matched... I completely missed that because I was so amazed by the condition of the finish... Good eyes! I have inserted the image of the number "24" from the external side of the sideplate to show what it SHOULD have looked like on the toggle link... http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/renumbered24.jpg |
You are right guys...I never noticed it before. I have called the seller and he is refunding my money as he had promised.
Hey Herb, thanks a lot for using those eagle eyes of yours. Of course, I was cussing up a blue streak at your discovery, but I'm glad you found it. Flying high on a cloud one second, crash and burn the next. Looks like I came to the right place for advice and help. I enlarged that area with Photoshop from my original 11 meg photo, and it is very easy to see the "5" under the "2". So apparently someone took a 54 part, restamped the 5 with a 2, and then reblued that area, is that a good guess? I assume there is no way it could have come from the factory that way, is there? Thanks to all again. I think I'll stick with shooters for a while. Anyone know where I can get a decent shooter?....Sterling |
Sterling, you are taking a good shooter back but next time try to find one for a little less money. Offer him $400 for it and see what happens. Now that he knows it's not a collector piece he might go for it. No way is it worth much over $400 having a restamped toggle, but those grips, if authentic, bring a good price.
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That sure is strange(the overstamp)....the gun does looks a little too good to be true!!!....however,if someone went to the trouble of redoing it ,surely they would not have goofed up on the stamp??
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I'm feeling for you on this one. At least you caught it before it was too far down the road. I hope you can find another one soon. On the other hand, that one would make a nice one to use...
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Sterling, offer him $500 for me. That luger is a steal at $400, there no ''shooters'' looking that good for that kind of money. If he won't take the 5 , then ask him ''How much ?'' Or better yet, send me his Email address and I'll do my own talkin'
Regards, Daniel |
I returned it to him about 2 hours ago. He looked at these posts, and then spoke with another collector who is familiar with the gun, and both of them find it hard to believe someone went to this trouble to restamp it, and they feel it would be nearly impossible, considering the finish. They both say there is no evidence any where on the weapon showing it has been reblued, including the toggle. In fact, there is still what the seller calls a "halo" around the 24(54) on the toggle, and the finish perfectly matches the rest of the gun. The seller is nearly convinced it must have come from the factory this way, as he and his friend can think of no way it could be otherwise, barring a really super-professional makeover, which he says seems like an awful lot of trouble, if even possible. I must admit, it seems puzzling, at least to my inexperienced mind.
Has anyone out there come across anything resembling this, with a restamp that is so nearly perfectly placed and blued? I have my money back and there is certainly no way the seller was trying to put one over on me. He has the phone number of the person he bought it off of about a year ago, and he is going to contact him to see if he can advise anything as to it's history. Meanwhile, he says he has another buyer who is familiar with the weapon and has seen these posts, and is still likely to purchase the gun at my aforementioned purchase price, or something close I think. |
Does anyone see any evidence or rebluing on this gun?
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Sterling, unless it is looked at in person, it is very hard to tell on a professional reblue. i.e. if someone knows what they are doing?
Of course, it is always possible (and also convienent) to feel that the parts were stamped at the factory that way. If it was a weimar rework police, this kind of thing did happen... Ed |
Has it ever been noted for a fact that parts were ever restamped in the factory in the original manufacturing of the gun, to correct a stamping error or for whatever reason, not counting a police rework or any other kind of rework?
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Sterling, My and other BYF 42's I have seen have a distinct line on the front and rear of the gripstraps. I think from being dip blued. I looked for this in your pictures. Maybe I missed them
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Sterling & All,
* Yawl correct me if I'm wrong; but, my understanding is all Mauser dip blue finishes were applied after parts were S/N'd. Consequently no halo should appear. * A halo occurs when a stamp is punched through the finish and the unprotected, displaced & work hardened metal (crater) ridge is exposed to wear and air. The stamps "gully" usually shows "bright" or patinad(rust) as it is unfinished also. Don't see halos around any of the other S/N's; but, being neutral & diplomatic, it could be the photos/lighting. Notice the questioned digit "2" does appear to have finish in its recessed "gully". That took some magic if it was done after the overall original finish was applied. Sure there is a halo?? * Further, the position of this toggle number is in a generally protected area from holster(whatever) wear as the toggle knobs are contacted first by any foreign opposing surface. * Finally, and this may be my eyes helping to support this conclusion, the size of the questioned digit "2" appears correct relative to the initial digit "5"; but, the form (font) of the digit "2" appears different than other "2"'s seen elsewhere on this example. The original Mauser digit "2", as seen in the comparison sideplate cut-in picture, curves around at the top and ends in a short segent virtually vertical or, to say another way, perpendicular to the base horizontal leg of the digit. The questioned digit "2" is a continous arc with the ending segment at the top still at an angle to vertical and not perpendicular to the base horizontal leg. * When this "corrected" digit was applied is anyones guess. I can hear the old "repair or field armourer" story spooling up next. It is hard to be absolute in pronouncing judgement when distance and pictures are the only mechanism at hand. It may well be, at best, a factory instituted correction or, apparently, an old correction anyway. As uniform as the balance of the finish on this example is, it is a shame to think a careless factory worker error, corrected and passed by the inspectors would condemn this pistol to be forever excluded from collector's consideration. * There is however the price(value). Suffices for me to say when I'm paying retail or near retail collector's prices, I like my gun to do all the talking, have all the correct answers, and keep me from having to provide "explainations". * The upside is the seller has been forthcoming and reputable in his dealings. Appears a good deal of honest critical questioning & learning is going on as opposed to more ominous agenda's. * Just one humble opinion from one rambling, sleepy source. <img border="0" alt="[sleep]" title="" src="graemlins/sleep.gif" /> Respectfully, Bob |
Hi Sterling, it's a shame the Luger Deal didn't work out! It's a nice pistol.
I totally agree with Bob (RockinWR) on his eagle eye comments on the "2". I noticed the same fault. No matter how much the seller wants the story to be true, I would seriously doubt that it came that way from the factory. The Germans weren't that sloppy!! I think you did the right thing; there will be another nice Luger for sale in the near future! The only way some knowledgeable collector would buy the Luger at that price might mean he (or she) has access to a toggle part with the correct number. In other words - BOOSTED!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> |
Thanks to all you guys for your input. Bob, you're right, the 2 over the 5 is a different style of 2 than all the others...this kind of thing amazes me, the precision. Good enough to fool at least a couple of people in the past.
Meanwhile, my search continues.... |
The gun is "out of circulation" permanently. I was the seller, and unfortunately the owner. When my friend Sterling called me, he had his money back within the hour. I sure would expect the same from him or anyone else. The gun was purchased in Louisville at the JAG show in late 2002 from a dealer. I have his card, and am going to have a chat this year at the show. As a beginning collector its obvious that a lesson has been learned, however, the good thing is so have 2000+ people from this forum.
I refuse to sell as a shooter due to my fear that someday, someone just like ME will be fooled. I would not wish that on anyone. I am not very deep in the gun, and I guess the good side is what a great holster with two FXO mags. Ouch!!!!!! I guess the only good thing is if she was reblued than someone went to a lot of trouble and time to do her. I hope they missed the metal and hit their finger with the %*#@ number punch!!!! I am grateful to the forum for helping my friend, and me. Mike |
Hello Mike,
Sterling was right in his first posting...when he called you a "good friend"...!!! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> |
Hey Mike, It's guys like you that give Luger Collecting a GOOD name!!! I wish I knew you better, so I could also count you as a friend!!
:) |
Bravo Mike! That is one of the finest looking shooter Lugers I have ever seen. Don't hide her... keep her active... that was her intended purpose... Folks who have their own parts replaced (like our friend Jerry Burney (lugerholsterrepair) and his hip replacement) are still the same folks under their skin...
Thanks for being part of the Lugerforum and for showing YOUR metal! |
I have always kept her put up, except for the 7 rds when she first came home, BUT NOW she is coming out in rare form. As a matter of fact heading to the range to help some friends get ready for an upcoming school, so she is sitting on the table next to a box of ammo. Always wanted to test one at 50 yards, but then again I dont know if I can throw it that far...HAHAHA Just kidding...well not really....
Mike |
Mike, you'll be surprised on how well it will do at long range!! With a decent rest, I think I would at least scare the crap out of anyone from at least 125 yards away. At the range where I shoot, we pick out dirt clumps on the birm about 125 yards out and the little devil does a pretty good job!!
Again Good on ya!! :) |
I knew this forum was worth joining. All of you guys are great.
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If Mauser wouldn't allow something like that to leave the factory, then why would they allow the die used to stamp the "42" to continually be used.(Take a real close look at the stamp, under the 2). Apparently, my BYF42 was stamped with the same die. Serial number in the "i" block.
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If you are talking about the surface blemish that I drew the red line around in this photograph...
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...sh04022004.jpg Then the answer to your question is that this mark (which I presume was made, not by the number die, but by a receiver jig or wrench for installation of the barrel), fell within acceptable tolerances for finish surface blemishes and did not affect proofing, functioning, or readability of the marks placed on the gun intentionally. Remember that 42 was the very near end of full time production and the urgency of wartime needs let thing like that blemish through that would never have been acceptable on a commercial weapon. If there is one thing that governments are headstrong about, it is accountability of weapons and their production. The mark you point out was probably the result of wear of the receiver holding jig and would have been a very costly thing to replace versus the replacement of a single number die, or a single toggle piece that was unacceptable... I hope this explanation was helpful. It was not based on any published references, but on 40 years of examining Lugers, ...on my experiences as a gunsmith (many years ago!) and also more recent manufacturing experiences in industrial environments. |
I have another 42 with the exact same mark. Same block as the black widow that was sold to sterling.
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I will have the byf42 BW at the gun show in Louisville Sat. Morn. I have some people scheduled to take a look at her. Not to sell, just to see it for themselves in person. If anyone is interested I am not hard to miss. The goofy guy with no hair, with the hot pregnant blonde..........
Mike |
John,
I don't doubt a word you're saying but on my Pistol it doesn't look like a blemish; it looks more like a strike of some kind. Nothing like a surface mar.. |
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