1916 DWM Luger - Help Needed
 

Hi gang -

I am new to this forum, and new to the Lugers. i have a DWM commercial Luger from 1920 and now I am looking to get a second, this time military. I have the below specimen at my LGS on hold. Selling for $1,699 - I might be able to work it down by $100-150 as I am a regular there, and they know me...

Here is what I could use some help with:
1) Confirming it is original finish - I see the hallo on the serial number under the barrel, but want to make sure the experts here agree
2) I can see all small parts match from the outside - fair to assume rest match, or ask for the grips (at least) to be taken out - i know if I were to take the right one off, I should be able to see both grips numbers.
3) Anything unusual about the markings, anything that may be missing or indicate a potential issue with it? I did not take a pic of the top strap but the 1916 stamp there looked legit (in line with rest)
4) The bore seems to have some flakes in it? Could someone comment on the bore - a potential concern / in line with expected / better? The only real reference I have is the commercial Luger I have and the bore is a little cleaner / shinier
5) The magazine # does not match. The rest you can see. Condition wise, is this a VG (for a Luger), or below? Pricewise, is it priced fairly, low, high? I am looking for a fair deal, not to steal it...

Thank you all in advance!
Slav

Welcome to the forum, Slav,

Without the gun in-hand, no critique can be "official," but your potential pistol looks mighty nice to me--great condition, with no negative tells that I can perceive. If you study a few YouTubes about how to do it, maybe you can talk the shop into letting you field strip it to check for the numbers on the firing pin and trigger. The asking price seems fair to me, as well, maybe somewhat to your advantage, particularly if you can talk 'em down a tad. High, if all numbers don't match, save the mag. The pics you posted are decent, but we'd like to see a full top pic, and perhaps one with the action locked open. Let's see what more knowledgeable members might have to say...

I'll bestow upon you a suggestion to check out/download the FAQ, which is listed on the bar at the top of each page, in case you haven't found it already. Mucho info!

Thank you very much, IthacaArtist - I had not found the extensive FAQ manual, this is super helpful. Thank you also for the comments above - they are re-assuring.

Great idea on the ask for a field strip - I watched a couple of videos and it does not look too bad, I may even ask if one of them can do it for me (they have some knowledgeable staff there).

I am adding all other photos I have (had a brain fart and did not take proper top strap pictures while at the store....).

Specifically, looking for some feedback on the bore - I added a second picture to the first one. I just could not see any bore pictures on alike listings on GB, so I do not have any reference points aside from my commercial Luger which has a better bore.

Hope they help...Thanks in advance for any additional chime ins here!

Slav

The bore looks somewhat pitted but should not make much difference shooting or pricewise. Hard to tell from photos on the finish. My guess is original. Price is fair. Really a nice looking collectible luger. Enjoy. Bill

Thanks for sharing the photos.
I hope you can get some better images in better lighting - like outdoors on a dark background.

The grips look like they are in good shape - no cracks or chips.
They may not be numbered, either. Not a big deal.

The chamber looks like it has a mark on it, but can't see clearly.
Is it 1916?

The finish and bore condition isn't as important as all matching parts, in my opinion.
Rough bores are very common because of the ammunition they used.

I didn't like that the first 2 digits of the serial number are missing on the receiver left side ?

I'm also curious about the barrel, as it seems to have no muzzle wear, although the left side of the receiver and sideplate are clearly worn.

The barrel looks smooth and shiny in one picture, but from underneath it looks very rough.
I think that may be from over-exposing the image and it just looks grainy.

I always look at the strawed parts very carefully - they should have similar discoloration and condition.


Looking forward to more photos.

Thank you Mac! Yes - photos are not great - kind of dark in the store and with the glass top shelves, the background is miserable...sorry i could not do better with those.

Yes, the chamber had 1916 stamped on it, it looked fine (going by memory - as the ones I have seen online - larger font than the rest of the stamps)

The receiver left side has all four numbers but on this one photo the toggle is pulled back and locked, so I assume the last two digits are covered by the side plate. That was my concern as well until I saw some other a couple photos with the action closed...it shows the 4 digits there.

The barrel had muzzle wear, but mostly on the very front, and yes - not much on the sides (holstering marks). This is a great observation - I should inspect this area more closely. The hallo seems very prominent on the barrel, so I am looking at this as my most prominent sign of an original finish - am I being correct?

I see what may be some machining marks on the back of the frame, where the safety is - would that be another potential tell on the finish?

Thanks for the comment on the barrel - yes, I also think this is the angle of the picture and the flashlight I had on it for the hallo test...

As for the strawed parts - i just want to ensure they are in alike condition, right? I also watched a video that suggested i should not see circular buff marks on those but straight lines, as this is what the process was when those were heat treated, etc...?

Anything else I should look more carefully into? I am going tonight and if they let me keep it on hold for a couple of more days, i will make more picture to post here. If not, I may need to make a decision on the sport - will see...

Thank you again!
Slav

I think the first 3 pictures are some of the best for color and the straw parts looks pretty good there.

The magazine is the right era. Better if its numbered, even if it doesn't match.

You are right about the receiver serial number being covered up - I missed that it was covered up!

I also think the asking price is pretty fair.

You will want to make sure the grips are snug fitting.

The lack of wear on the barrel may be because it was depot replaced, but it is numbered correctly.

Overall, I also think it's original finish, but you really have to look it over in good lighting.
With the receiver removed, the insides should still be in the white, too.

The ears on the back of the frame almost always show a lot of machine marks, mostly circular.
But, the edges still look sharp and straight.
Heavy buffing usually thins out the acceptance stamps and rounds off the toggle edges.
I didn't see any of that.

Looks like a good gun at a decent price...hard to find these days.
Ron

Thanks Ron - I appreciate the affirmation, very helpful!

Thank you Mac - the above notes are very helpful, I really appreciate it!

Hi Mac -

I went to the LGS this evening and took some more photos, specifically the top strap and the internals. I attach here. A couple of things i noted:

1) The internals were very white, looked shiny and clean / good shape
2) The barrel front was not blued
3) All externally visible small parts numbers matched (05)
4) The mag had 4 digit number and a couple of proof marks, similar as other 1914-1918s I have seen, just non-matching, but it looked period correct (should have taken a pic!)
5) The LGS agreed to keep on hold for me until EOD Friday when I will go back and they said they will have their armorer field strip it for me so I can see the three internal parts that should also be numbered (and matched). One the sales associates was 99% sure they matched as he knew the customer who traded it in and he 'was very particular about those details' - hopefully we confirm on Friday!

Unless anyone sees anything suspicious, my plan is to go back on Friday and if all matches internally, drive a 'little hard bargain' and take it home...:cool:

Slav

I think $1,700 is reasonable if it's all matching. That's just to say that IMHO I would not let it slip away if you like it, even though the shop may not be willing to lower the full $1,700 asking price.
-Bob

An update - I went in, and had the pistol field stripped - all internals matched, including the grips. All looked good, they knocked off $100, so I got it for $1,600 - seemed like a good / fair price. I will take pictures over the weekend during daylight and post here.

Now, as I was picking it up today, they showed me a commercial Luger they had just gotten in (not even on the floor), and I think it is a good buy ($800), so I am posting some pictures, with a couple of questions re: commercials:

1) Which parts are supposed to be matching on a commercial model - I did see the barrel and receiver with full SN, the side plate, the takedown lever and the rear toggle link with last two #s. Two GERMANY marks - one on the receiver up front, and another on the magazine (hard to see on the pic).
2) The pistol does not hold open (by racking the slide back with magazine in) - is this normal for some commercial models? My current commercial model will hold open. The one in the store did not hold open even with the military mag, and the commercial mag held open the military gun, so it is something with the commercial gun in the store - typical or not?
3) Anything unusual you may see on the pics?

Thanks agian to everyone who chimed in, you all were super helpful in building up my confidence getting the 1916 model...;-)

Slav

For $800 that’s a good deal. It’s an alphabet commercial that has a busted or missing hold-open, but rest of the condition seems good in the photos provided.

I'd be bringing that one home for 800

Agreed.

Good deal for $800. Even if it's not matching. I'd buy it.

Oh, and regarding the hold open. If you have an opportunity to remove the receiver, you can observe how high the hold open latch is being pushed up by the magazine follower. For example, see photos in this thread:

https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=42498

You may find a Mec-Gar magazine will push the hold open latch higher, such that it will engage with the receiver.

Thanks for the note, Mr. Kaiser! Can you elaborate on the 'alphabet commercial' - I am still new into the Lugers, so learning the lingo...;-)

Slav

Thanks for the re-affirmation!

I did note the 5 spots that I saw matching (2 full SN and three last two digits). Are there any other small parts where the last two should be matching on a commercial variant?

My understanding is that the matching on commercials is 1) in a lot less spots 2) less visible (not on the open areas) and 3) more sporadic (less consistent).

If there are any other typical internal or external parts the commercials are stamped, I would love to know! (I have the full list on military, so I expect it to be a smaller subset for sure).

Thank you again!
Slav

Thank you - this was useful to review and understand some more. Good approach for sure - will keep it in mind!

Luger buying
 

As a watchmaker, I’ve picked up on some great authenticity tips for original correctly age blueing effects but direct lighting my early straw37 shows a still nicely blued original remaining barrel. Then taking a higher lumin small hand held flashlight 🔦 pointed away at a correct angle the root beer effect of ghosting of aging underlying rusting showing up after 80 years . A newly blued barrel would not “ Root Beer ghost like this . Also ( the slide on my AC41 shows it off well too)

Yes, the numbered parts on Commercial Lugers are less visibly numbered--tucked underneath, behind, and on the bottoms and backsides. Theoretically, everything would have been numbered as expected, but parts like the firing pin or grips weren't marked. Their mag bottoms should not be marked--yours looks correct.

Yes snap this up.. like yesterday!

About alphabet Lugers... During the transition period wherein DWM morphed into Mauser, post WW1 commercial Lugers were made with serial numbers consisting of a four number prefix and a one letter suffix. The letter suffixes on those Weimar commercial Lugers came to be known (informally) as the "alphabet series".

The one you are looking at appears to be 5395a. If so then the "a" pistols were allegedly made in 1920. There is a chart many people use to identify manufacturing dates for alphabet Lugers that I am unable to copy for you. Maybe someone here can provide that.

By contrast I have a Weimar alphabet Luger like the one you're looking at with a "r" suffix, indicating 1928 manufacture. They got to the "y" suffix in 1930, and after that DWM became Mauser, or so I deduce. I think I have all that correct but am happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.

I hope you bought it for $800 as that is a very good price.
-Bob

The chart I like is from Jan C Still's Weimar Lugers book, page 15.

Thanks - this was very helpful. I see the letter an the one above 'o', but....they called me last night and told me they had a mistake inventorying the gun, and it is not $800 but $1,800 (I had it on hold due to being so late the other day I was there).

Given the new $1,800 tag, I do not believe this is good deal anymore - looks like commercials in that condition go for $1,300-1,400 from my research on GB?

A more general question - what is the general premium on military over commercials from WW1 / post WW1 era (in alike condition)?

I always thought the military command 50-100% premium (more on the higher quality end, of course). Is this in the ballpark, of am I off? (I can be, again a newby in the Lugers, I have a good collection of S&W, Colts and High Standards but only 2 Lugers).

Cheers!
Slav

Thank you, Mac! The below chart is super helpful! I printed it out to have it handy in my Lugers folder!

That's the chart I was referring to. Thanks Mac for supplying it.

Nobody has mentioned what the pistol is chambered in. If it's .30 Luger, the ammo is fairly expensive and intermittently scarce unless you reload. This expense/inconvenience might justify the lower offer.

Yes, it is the 30 Luger (typical for the commercials as we know), and yes last time I paid $42 for a 50 round box to shoot the commercial Luger I already have. Definitely a negative factor, but given the price went up from 800 to 1,800 I doubt I will able to close that deal with them. I think they want to put it on GB, this is what I overheard while I was in the store - it was sitting on the desk of the guy who does their Gb postings and the manager I talked to just made the call to let me put it on hold under my name…they may have I realized $800 was too low, and just want to get more…(is my assumption). What would a fair price be for a commercial like that? I bought mine for $800 a year ago but in slightly worst condition - mostly mine is not all matching (the side plate)…

FWIW, my .30 caliber 1928 DWM looks to be in about the same condition as the one you were looking at. I bought it off GB last year and it was $1,078 after tax and shipping.

Yep, the recent comps of sold on GB indicated 1,200-1,300 for a commercial in alike condition. I doubt they can get $1,800 but who k nows…$800 would have indeed been a great price but I guess not this time…