Identifying a luger
 

I was in a pawn shop yesterday. There was a lady who brought in a Luger to sell. I thought she was an employee and struck up a conversation with her on the Luger. It ended up I told the pawn shop once I found out she was a customer that if they bought it call me, and I told her if she did not sell it call me. She did not sell it to the pawn shop and is coming over today so I can make an offer on it.

So from what I saw maybe some here can help me out and put me in the right direction. It was a 7.62x25. It had a nice original bluing no high polish but just a nice blueing that had the right thinning on the high parts. No serial number on any of the parts, the only numbers I saw were on the frame front, and the underside of the barrel with the bore markings.

The top of the toggle was DWM. There were no proof marks or anything on the right side of the frame. It had the usual wood grips. The mag had either a wood or a red wood tone colored end cap with the last two serial numbers stamped in it. There was a Luger tool and I was short on time and did not look to see any marks on it. There was an oiler but I think it was for a K89 or rifle. It was the size of a pack of life savers with the palm and finger pull wings on it. Also had a wood drilled ammo holder with 100 rounds of 7.62x25. I did not check the head stamps. They had some kind of plug in the tip of the bullet. Dumb Dumb bullets?

I was thinking it was a 1920 unmarked. But there is not much to go on. Thanks for any help. BTW no date was stamped in the Luger top frame. Thanks for any help

The caliber would be .30 Luger, not 7,62x25.

From your description it sounds like a 1920s 'alphabet' commercial pistol. They are not the most sought after ones, but can be found in nice shape as they were commercial exports to the US and not wartime issued guns.

Please correctly identify the caliber and the rounds before attempting to chamber / fire them.

Thanks. I just remembered someone telling me they shoot the Tokorov rounds out of the 30 Luger. I never checked it out. I was never really interested in the 30 Luger guns. Good to know.

A Tokarev round would not fit in the magazine or chamber and if it did, it would damage the gun.
What you are looking for is often called ".30 cal luger" or 7.65mm x 21mm
It's available in a lot of places on-line. PPU is a good brand you can trust.

These are old guns designed just when smokeless power was being introduced. They use a Target load with standard FMJ ball bullets. Avoid NATO, P+, and any other high powered cartridges.

It should have a full serial number and suffix under the barrel on the front of the frame.

They sell for about $1,200 - $1,800, depending on condition.

It is a commercial luger design and should be a good shooter, if the barrel has good rifling.

Thanks Cat. I appreciate the help. Nice to know appx value. So I know what to tell her on value. I would only offer 800 then as it would be for me to sell not to collect. I have 4 third Reich Lugers in my collection.

The lady left several guns with me to sell for her on GB. The Luger is indeed a Commercial Luger all matching with serial number and nitro ect. I think the mag is not original as it has a plastic follower. But strange has the two numbers of the serial stamped in the bottom. I have been busy going over GB sold prices so we could come up with values. I need help on this one and will post pictures in the next few days. Thanks. The Luger has the take down tool but its unmarked. Were the export Luger tools unmarked? I know WW1 and 2 marked Luger tools can run 100 bucks or so. But I have no idea if the unmarked ones hold any value. Thanks for the help.

Here are some photos of the Luger.

More photos

Raphielle,

My guess it that the ammo is vintage. Sellier & Bellot makes a semi-jacketed lead soft point round in .30 Luger that is the closest modern ammo I've seen to this. I bought a thousand rounds online that was advertised as FMJ and was surprised when it arrived. Worried that it might be problematic, I expressed my concerns to the seller, but it fed and functioned just fine, and I've used it all up. If you can afford this caliber ammo, or gear up for reloading, it is a great round and sweet to shoot.

From the photo it looks like semi jacketed ammo and "the plug" is the exposed lead has oxidized. Old lead ammo frequently has this oxidization.

So no Geneva Convention crimes here

The oiler is from the RG-34 cleaning kit for the Mauser K89k rifle.

The RG34 was not just for the K98, but for all small arms, including the P08. Nice bonus.

Fascinating box to check out!
A cleaning rod, old ammo and a rifle oiler.
I don't think luger tools were marked for commercial pistols.

I think the luger is an Alphabet Luger - post WW-1 military converted to commercial.
It has no grip safety and no chamber marking.
It was originally a military P.08 luger, with a stock lug and numbered small parts.
It retains a little of the original straw color on the small parts, too.
You can get more true colors photographing outdoors with indirect sunlight.

Serial number 1985m would put it in the 1923-24 time frame
It marked for export with the GERMANY stamp over the front frame.

The grips are in good shape, but the barrel looks messy - might just be old oil and dust.
The rear toggle link is numbered, but dented and scared, but it looks pretty good overall.

The chart below was published by Jan C Still, in Weimar Lugers (page 15). That would a good reference book to start with.

Did you buy this kit ?

What a nice, vintage package. I like the box. I wonder when it was all assembled.

She did not know much about the guns. Only that her relatives owned them and they were passed and she inherited them. I am selling them for her on GB. She had a bit of an over expectation of price IMO. The Luger I think maybe start it out at 1200 and see if we get any bids. If that is low it will or should go higher. Does that sound reasonable? Thanks.

Doesn't appear to have ever been a Military pistol. No proof or acceptance marks, not all the usual parts are numbered, and those that are have been marked in the commercial locations.To say nothing of the crown over N markings on both barrel and upper. Except for perhaps some special contract orders, all frames were made with the stock lug after mid 1913.
.
The serial number with suffix letter looks like it was stamped with room left for the Germany mark.

The tool is a DDR tool :) $75

The magazine is an after market

Thanks for all the help.

Good catch on the tool, Ed.

Thanks. I made a mistake once when I had a Third Reich Luger I sold and gave the tool away with it thinking it was not worth anything. Found out the marked waffenampt tool was worth a bit. Live and learn.

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Gents, Recently came into possession of a Luger. It is a 30 Luger SN 7573. Pics are attached. The only other mark is what looks like an "N" on the left side with something over it. Wood handles and wood clip end. Let me know what else you might need to help id and age. Thx.

Kurgen/Jerry, your pistol is a typical civilian-market pistol commonly known as an “alphabet Luger.” They were made in the mid to late 1920s. The “Germany” stamp indicates yours was intended for sale to the US market. They’re one of the most common Lugers found.

As an aside, you probably ought to open your own thread instead of hijacking another. (I’m sure Ed or one of the other mods will be along shortly to do so for you.). Welcome to the forum and be sure to read the FAQ - it has a wealth of information on ID’ing Lugers.

Thanks Bill. Didn't intend to highjack, I just didnt yet have the ability to start a new thread.

Will check the FAQ's as suggested.

I can't make out the letter suffix.....it is part of the serial number and gives us an idea of when it was made.

@Kurgen I think you have 7573 o ("O" see DWM suffix chart below)

The suffix is only found under the full serial number on the frame front.

The crown/N is a commercial nitro firing proof. It's usually only on the left upper receiver, but sometimes more than one will be applied to the receiver and barrel.

(BTW, you can just start another thread - it would be less confusing).

I am not getting any bids on the luger at 1200. I took it down to 900 starting with a buy it now of 1200. I think for a commercial Luger its just a bit high.

7.65x21 Luger vs. 7.63x25 Mauser

Attachment 87280

Since no one else addressed this, you are thinking about shooting 7.62 Tokarev in the 1895 Mauser. Same case dimensions only the Tok is loaded way hotter and will blow the Mauser up after a while.

Doug,

I appreciate and offer fulsome praise for your obvious concern for the safety of your fellow shooters. Most, if not all of us, have at some point in our lives pushed the envelope of prudent behavior and it's good to be occasionally reminded that unwise behavior can have seriously painful consequences.

Let's expand this to a more general caution, taken from NSSF – 10 RULES OF SAFE GUN HANDLING
( https://www.nssf.org/safety/rules-firearms-safety/ )

Rule 5:

5. USE CORRECT AMMUNITION
You must assume the serious responsibility of using only the correct ammunition for your firearm. Read and heed all warnings, including those that appear in the gun’s instruction manual and on the ammunition boxes.

Using improper or incorrect ammunition can destroy a gun and cause serious personal injury. It only takes one cartridge of improper caliber or gauge to wreck your gun, and only a second to check each one as you load it. Be absolutely certain that the ammunition you are using matches the specifications that are contained within the gun’s instruction manual and the manufacturer’s markings on the firearm.

Firearms are designed, manufactured and proof tested to standards based upon those of factory loaded ammunition. Handloaded or reloaded ammunition deviating from pressures generated by factory loads or from component recommendations specified in reputable handloading manuals can be dangerous, and can cause severe damage to guns and serious injury to the shooter. Do not use improper reloads or ammunition made of unknown components.

Ammunition that has become very wet or has been submerged in water should be discarded in a safe manner. Do not spray oil or solvents on ammunition or place ammunition in excessively lubricated firearms. Poor ignition, unsatisfactory performance or damage to your firearm and harm to yourself or others could result from using such ammunition.

Form the habit of examining every cartridge you put into your gun. Never use damaged or substandard ammunition — the money you save is not worth the risk of possible injury or a ruined gun.