Help with a Commercial Luger
 

I've been told this is an original 1920 9mm DWM but I find the mis matched finish and the sights to be unlike anything I've seen from that genre.
The rear sight has roll pins and a 'modern' screw base...the front site looks very un German and very US.
I don't see any Germany import stamp....I am no expert but can't find anything similar in my reference books.
The barrel profile looks unusual too...so?

What do you think?

IMO someone has built a custom Luger intended for target shooting. The Luger can be an amazingly accurate pistol. I seriously doubt that DWM ever built anything like that.

Better pictures showing details, including the serial numbers, would help to confirm or disprove my opinion.

He only shows a few pictures and never the serial number nor the top of the sight/pistol. If you look closely, you can see roll pins in the rear sight and a modern screw base on the left. The front sight blade is also secured with a roll pin....Roll pins were 'invented/patented' in 1948.

I agree this was an after the fact barrel event.

The serial number is 91472

He is now saying it was a Stoeger build in the proper period.

Highly unlikely IMO. While Stoeger offered barreled receivers in different barrel lengths, that is almost certainly a custom fit barrel by a gunsmith. I could be wrong but I doubt that Stoeger ever offered custom gunsmithing of that sort.

As is often said, buy the gun; not the story. If it appeals to you and the price is right, buy it but also ask for a money back guarantee if it doesn't function correctly.

I am not purchasing based upon numerous responses fro those with more experience than I.

From another Luger site...

"Back in the late 1960, early 1970s there was a place in Minnesota advertising that they would convert conventional 4" barreled Lugers to Luger Carbines. I don't recall prices but if you sent them a 4" barreled Luger they sent you it back with a long barrel. This looks like one of the conversions they offered. I kept one of their catalogs" "

Thanks for your input.

I made an offer based upon a shooter/modified Luger as he says it cycles perfectly.... might be fun if he will seriously lower his 'buy now' price.

He accepted my offer that was a shooter price.... he's come to the conclusion it is simply an aftermarket job. Money back if it does not cycle properly.

On that cycling issue with the long barrels...this is 9mm btw. Was the ammo too weak or too hot that caused issues? That is a lot of 'mass' to move in the recoil mode. OTOH, the round is in the tube longer too...so could be either as a guess.

A Carbine luger has a forestock.
This gun has none, which I suspect would make it more difficult to aim.
I wonder if it was intended to work with a should stock, too.
It will certainly be an interesting gun to shoot.

I have a carbine shoulder stock and can't imagine shooting that piece without it.

Arty Lugers are fine either way with an 8 in. barrel but the stock with a two hand grip is a great platform...I suspect that same hold will be fine with the cannon barrel. :)

I have the pistol and the overall condition is very good...tight. I cleaned and inspected it

The stats for those +P Gold Dot loads show it to be pretty hot. The original load for the P.08 Luger was a 123 grain bullet at approximately 1090 fps. It's also a rather expensive cartridge to be shooting often.

The Luger operates best with a specific impulse provided by the cartridge. The best powders will be fast to medium burning in a standard Luger. However, such powders would likely require pressures beyond reasonable to operate what you have. If you reload, I'd try a powder such as Autocomp or Unique that burns slower and longer down the barrel and has a longer "peak" in it's graph pattern than a faster powder. Start low and work up keeping a very close watch for signs of pressure.

The barrel is actually 14.5 in. measured from the chamber...the owner measured 'outside'.

Xxx

Actually one should never shoot +P ammo in old firearms. They were not designed for this load. Unless the operators manual says +P is ok avoid it. Bill

T/C Thompson Center rear sight. Pretty obvious. I've got a couple laying around the shop.

And I would note that if the barrel length is 14 1/2", and you put a stock on it, you now have a "short barreled rifle" requiring registration with the Feds. Carbine stocks are for real carbines. Navy stocks are for real navy's, and Artillery stocks are for LP08's. Any other combination runs afoul of the law. 200 bucks is cheap to keep yourself out of court.

The barrel/chamber are 'modern' as this is not an original LP08..

I've decided to return the pistol due to the ATF issue...I was unaware the LP08 Arty /carbine exemption did not cover other similar pistols so you gave good advice and made me do some investigating.

IOW, you can't put a Navy stock on an Arty LP08 as that was not the issue item. I was unaware it was that finite.

I had a 24 hour grace period with the pistol and a return is no issue

[QUOTE=reiver;347568]I have the pistol and the overall condition is very good...tight. I cleaned and inspected it

C&R's are only C&R's if they are in essentially original condition and have not been screwed with. Such as a Sporterized Mauser with scope base holes and a modified bolt handle and cut off stock is no longer a C&R. Although, It is possible it may still qualify if it is more than 50 years old. But I don't think so, as ATF has ruled that to obtain C&R status, it has to be original.

This is what I was looking for...

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.

While I wasn't explicit in my previous post, I agree with wlyon 100%. DO NOT shoot +P ammo in any Luger or older firearm. A few shots may not show any ill effects but a continued diet of +P will surely damage the gun.

Doubs, it is going back so not an issue....it had a grace period with the purchase of 24 hours.

How about an observation/guess tho for debates sake as many have this non cycling issue.

The barrel is 'stout' and a modern recent piece...from the 1970's/80's I'd guess based upon the sights. I believe it could take plus P honestly (the barrel alone) as it is thick and newer.

The recoil, or a great deal of it, is absorbed by the mass of that barrel hence the failure to extract. If shot with a stock (+P) it cycles. If I remove the stock and 'limp wrist it' it stove pipes the brass...so long enough to extract but not enough to clear the receiver. So, the +P is just at the edge. presently, of operation. The brass does not go as far as my other Lugers but they clear nicely.
If that is the case...how much impulse is being sent to the action/bolt/toggle mechanism if it just barely operates? I understand you'd not want plus P or a hot round in an original barrel but would that be as critical in a modern bore/chamber?

For discussions sake.

Cont. I know everyone plays on the side of caution but one question.... many have said you can 'break a toggle' etc. If the weapon with a normal round ( Winch 1154 WB) will not extract and a plus P (hand held) will stovepipe then the toggle assembly is not even hitting the frame ramp or just barely.

How does one break the toggle/action in that case?

Not being argumentative but maybe I am missing something.

The pressure of a cartridge fired in the Luger is transmitted to the inclined locking surface of the rear toggle link, not the frame ramps. Cracks can develop in the corners of these areas, both in the toggle link and in the frame. The barrel make take pressure "til the cows come home", but the rearward pressure on the somewhat fragile toggle train is the weak point.

Thanks, my question is this. I get your description too.

I can see that if the weapon is cycling fully and one is using a hot round. That could easily stress and fracture those thin/cut out areas. Are you saying that the same stress is present even if the weapon will not fully cycle or execute a full action movement?

However, imo, If there is not enough pressure, or barely enough pressure, to cycle the action is that stressing that area? I would say no but I am no expert on the Luger specifically. If it is not being 'hit' or not hit hard it should be within its capability.??

p.s. I am not trying to validate using +p or any specific round...simply trying to garner the experience of those here by asking pointed questions. I know, at some point, I will be dealing with a long barrel unassisted by the forward stock helper as I won't spend that kind of money for a carbine...and I want a 9mm.

reiver, I'm not sure how to answer your questions. The toggle train is secured to the receiver via an axel pin which initially absorbs the energy of the recoil until the toggles break and the action opens. They can and will break. A cartridge with too much pressure can also damage the breechblock. A ruptured primer can blow out the firing pin and keeper while a ruptured case can cause damage to various parts including the magazine.

The newest military Lugers are 80 years old and some are as much as 114 years old - counting only the P.08 and not earlier models. Shooting +P and other high pressure loads in them is like shooting .38 Super in the Astra 400/Model 1921 pistols. They'll take it for awhile... until they fail. The wisest course of action is to only feed them standard pressure cartridges.

Thanks Doubs...that makes sense.

These are the areas that receive the stress of the pressure from firing. The sharp corners are susceptible to cracking from excess stress or fatigue. The inclined area is the actual locking surface that takes the pressure of firing. The Toggle knobs don't really do anything until the pressures have dropped and the upper receiver has travelled to the rear to start the unlocking sequence by the knobs striking the frame ears and forcing them upward to "break" the toggle joint.

https://forum.lugerforum.com/attachm...1&d=1687820755

https://forum.lugerforum.com/attachm...1&d=1687820755

https://forum.lugerforum.com/attachm...1&d=1687820755

Thanks GB...that is very informative. Those were not the area(s) I was focusing on...

Gents.... I am going to try Win Nato 124 gn....1188 fps/ mv 388..if it breaks it breaks but not much of an issue for me as I have another complete 'top' in a Navy 6" export that will work fine if this goes south.
It has been aftermarket moded anyways and I got it at a shooter price. I'll let you know how that works out. I will keep a round count and round type log....

p.s. when I decided to return it he made me a deal I couldn't refuse...I honestly believe he did not know this was misrepresented (altho he should have)...he trusted and knew the person that sold it to him, took his word.
When he realized his mistake he had no problem making it right. That or he is a great BSer...either way we are both satisfied.

NATO 9mm is on the same level a +P; i.e., HOT. Do as you wish but I strongly advise against it.

I know Doubs...a tad less...some, Like Sig is hotter and the Winchester less so... there isn't much one can do with the barrel/ext. as it is anyway other than remove etc......so, it'll survive or not.

Changing out this wacky barrel to mount something lighter/shorter/more "kosher" might be your best bet. Less risk of breakage, and better shot at function with recommended ammo...

I am cutting the barrel down to 12" from 14.5 (measured at the breech)...removed the wonky f/r sights too. Will recrown and see what dif that makes.... if that does not work I may turn the barrel to a more proper profile to lose some more fat.
May go with a Navy rear sight...or get a carbine one, then a proper ramp. Anyways.... moving along.

If that is a no go I've discussed some options with Eugene and he guarantee's he'll make it run with normal ammo.... I like to try first as that would be excellent but spendy. Options are good.

Appreciate all of the comments.

Just my opinion but I'd cut that barrel to 8 inches. Twelve may still have too much mass to function with normal cartridges.

Doubs... my neighbor the Gunsmith (school trained) is only charging me an hours of work to cut that back/recrown...fifty bucks.

So, I can incrementally sneak up on it.

Or, if I want to retain the length send it to Eugene and have the barrel turned to reduce weight. I just don't know if I can afford (for this pistol) his well deserved price.

Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch :)

A good day. I had the barrel cut down to 12ish from the breech, re crowned. Well, I didn't expect much but boy howdy.
She runs now as fast as I can pull with 115 gn Win White Box.
Now I have to decide what I want to do sight wise...Navy rear? Original from ramp would be nice.

Ideally I'd get the barrel turned to reduce the profile but we'll see.

what was removed...will make a nice pen holder.

Or a #2 pencil holder :cheers:
Ron

GT is helping me out with a Navy rear sight toggle and a front ramp...I know you guys say he is a pita but I find him quite helpful :)